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Alex - this is bullying. Criticising someone's conduct by attempting to shame them will only make you look small.

Dang. I thought he had me on ignore!

I'm polarizing? You're not even extending the debate. You're just trying to suppress the debate (as usual) because it doesn't meet your lofty standard in regards to the amount of information or "evi

Went to LA last month, and on a lay-over did a quick tour of the Colosseum and surrounds.

The stadium is very nice, and the park it is in OK but the neighbourhood and surrounding free ways are UGLY.....

Well that's typical US infrastructure, uglyass freeways. And they're always doing construction on expanding them somewhere in each city. Houston has one running in the middle of our downtown area for some reason, not sure whose idea that was. Or perhaps downtown just blew up bigger than expected. I think I read somewhere that they're planning on rerouting the freeway and movie the piece running in downtown altogether.

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The stadium is very nice, and the park it is in OK but the neighbourhood and surrounding free ways are UGLY.....

I heard the same about the Stade de France (as was Olympic Stadium in Atlanta neighborhood which was virtually non-existent). So, if the Paris and LA bids stay on track, the IOC will have a choice of 2 "unappealing" neighborhoods. But then again, all they need is the facility.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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Houston has one running in the middle of our downtown area for some reason, not sure whose idea that was. Or perhaps downtown just blew up bigger than expected. I think I read somewhere that they're planning on rerouting the freeway and movie the piece running in downtown altogether.

I always thought that was so cool & futuristic-like, driving right by all those tall buildings.

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Olympic dreaming: Could Detroit ever host the games? - By JC Reindl, Detroit Free Press 9:56 a.m. EDT August 18, 2015

http://www.freep.com/story/money/business/michigan/2015/08/17/detroit-budget-olympics-bid-technically-possible/31462493/

"Maybe it's time for a joint Detroit-Windsor bid to host the Summer Olympics."

As a thought exercise, the Free Press devised a potential event and venue map showing how Detroit and Windsor might pull off a 2024 Summer Olympics. The map reflects some actual proposals from Detroit's official bid for the 1968 Olympics, as well as guidance from Boston's now-cancelled plan for 2024."

1-c20121a9a7.jpg

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Well that's typical US infrastructure, uglyass freeways. And they're always doing construction on expanding them somewhere in each city. Houston has one running in the middle of our downtown area for some reason, not sure whose idea that was. Or perhaps downtown just blew up bigger than expected. I think I read somewhere that they're planning on rerouting the freeway and movie the piece running in downtown altogether.

Is there anything wrong with building freeways, I'll tell you one thing it does promote, freedom. You want to board a bus or train and squeeze in with people, meanwhile hearing babies cry and what not. My avatar is a shield for the freeway in Brampton that led to its growth, that is Highway 410.

Freeway expansion seems to be discouraged in today's bizarre thought process of thinking, they always like to say induced demand and the "obese man and belt analogy". The problem with this analogy is that it assumes that being a large city is bad in the first place. People in North America WANT to live in suburbia, if they didn't the developers wouldn't be building houses now in the boonies now would they? I know there are many, especially me generation, the millennials who prefer urban living, but to suggest that suburbia is finished is not right at all, suburbia exists because people like it.

Because Toronto cancelled many freeway projects in the early 1970s, thanks to NYC protester, Jane Jacobs, the city was promised that it would indeed focus on transit......since that decision, only about 3 miles of subway have opened since then and nothing else....that's one of the main reasons why Toronto and the GTA is in the pickle its in congestion wise because they refused to build anything. Consider that Highway 401, which is the busiest freeway in North America and the widest, that has came to be because of the status of Hwy 401, it's the only road that will take you to Quebec or Michigan that passes through Toronto, so it is a VERY important trade corridor. Since this is the status of the only road, it thus becomes jammed, unlike you LatinXTC in Houston, if you were on I-10 and wanted to go past Houston, you could easily use one of the beltways and drive around the city, it may take longer, but certain times of the day I could imagine it would be much quicker. You can't really do that in Toronto unless you go on the private, fully electronic, most expensive toll road in the world known as Hwy 407 ETR. But I won't go there.

And Latin, if you are trying to say that freeways are bad, why don't you try using METRO a few weeks and see how you like it.

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Freeway expansion seems to be discouraged in today's bizarre thought process of thinking, they always like to say induced demand and the "obese man and belt analogy". The problem with this analogy is that it assumes that being a large city is bad in the first place. People in North America WANT to live in suburbia, if they didn't the developers wouldn't be building houses now in the boonies now would they?

People with families don't want suburbia itself, they want affordable family housing, good schools and quick travel times. Which is why high density cities are very attractive for young urban professionals but not working families. If you can give people quality housing for low cost, good schools, a quality metro system, etc then the masses will be happy to live in cities.

If you want to criticise progressives then criticise them for attacking property developers and financiers and at the same time demanding things that require the involvement of those same people. Lots of taxes, building height restrictions, red tape, nuisance lawsuits, etc make it harder to support urban development

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Olympic dreaming: Could Detroit ever host the games? - By JC Reindl, Detroit Free Press 9:56 a.m. EDT August 18, 2015

http://www.freep.com/story/money/business/michigan/2015/08/17/detroit-budget-olympics-bid-technically-possible/31462493/

"Maybe it's time for a joint Detroit-Windsor bid to host the Summer Olympics."

As a thought exercise, the Free Press devised a potential event and venue map showing how Detroit and Windsor might pull off a 2024 Summer Olympics. The map reflects some actual proposals from Detroit's official bid for the 1968 Olympics, as well as guidance from Boston's now-cancelled plan for 2024."

1-c20121a9a7.jpg

Interesting, but additional venues for Windsor could be, WFCU Centre (at 7,000) for Basketball Preliminaries and Windsor Arena (upgraded to 5,000 all seated) for a minor indoor sport. St Denis Centre Fieldhouse supposedly has 5,500 capacity. So that can host Indoor Volleyball Preliminaries. Another venue, maybe a temporary area could host Handball Preliminaries in Windsor too. Simply give Windsor a bit more venues and have Detroit with the major ones for Basketball, Handball and Volleyball. Could the old Silverdome be used in any capacity? Or is that pointless?

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Interesting, but additional venues for Windsor could be, WFCU Centre (at 7,000) for Basketball Preliminaries and Windsor Arena (upgraded to 5,000 all seated) for a minor indoor sport. St Denis Centre Fieldhouse supposedly has 5,500 capacity. So that can host Indoor Volleyball Preliminaries. Another venue, maybe a temporary area could host Handball Preliminaries in Windsor too. Simply give Windsor a bit more venues and have Detroit with the major ones for Basketball, Handball and Volleyball. Could the old Silverdome be used in any capacity? Or is that pointless?

Gonna have to go with no on that one..

13 Haunting Photos from the Pontiac Silverdome, Former Home to the Detroit Lions

abandoned-silverdome-detroit-06-1024x673

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Windsor may look nice on the map, but there's one thing all of you are forgetting. Windsor is in a different country than the United States, this isn't a problem if the two countries had something like a schengen agreement, but there is almost no harmonization of rules between Canada and the US. For instance, if I recall, Krakow's bid had some events scheduled in Slovakia I believe. That doesn't create much of an issue within the Schengen zone because going from Poland to Slovakia is essentially like crossing between states in the US.

But not so between Canada and the US, so we will need athletes from certain countries in the world to get visas for both the US and Canada, doesn't sound too great. Also, suppose one athlete made a stupid move from Europe and has a DUI 5 years in his past, usually that won't make you criminally inadmissible to enter the US but it will indeed make you criminally admissible to enter Canada, the CBSA (Canada Border Services Agency) takes DUI extremely seriously.

How would border crossings be mitigated, assuming that the Gordie Howe bridge is completed by 2024, which gives us an additional crossing. Do we close all Detroit-Windsor tunnel traffic off to Olympic delegates only? These are some things to think about, lets consider that there are many people who live in Windsor and work somewhere in Metro Detroit, mainly those in healthcare, an already congested border crossing can became insanely congested by even considering that the Olympics should be shared between Detroit-Windsor.

Both sides of the border take their jobs extremely seriously, and something that may seem trivial is something huge for them. For instance, there was someone who was fined $600 for trying to smuggle beef in the US because he had a half eaten McDonald's burger in his vehicle he didn't declare, because absolutely NO meat, produce, or the sort can be brought into the US.


If Detroit is going to do this, the whole event should be in the US, the issues of the border are not worth trying to work around. Don't bother building an Olympic Stadium, can't "The Big House" in Ann Arbor be good enough for an opening ceremony/athletics stadium? I'm not sure if that stadium has room for a track and field track but if it can accommodate one, I don't see why that venue is incapable of hosting.

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If Detroit is going to do this, the whole event should be in the US, the issues of the border are not worth trying to work around. Don't bother building an Olympic Stadium, can't "The Big House" in Ann Arbor be good enough for an opening ceremony/athletics stadium? I'm not sure if that stadium has room for a track and field track but if it can accommodate one, I don't see why that venue is incapable of hosting.

No, because then it would be the Ann Arbor Olympics instead. Just how you're citing border crossings between the U.S. & Canada as a major issue, so is having the main stadium 45 miles away from the rest of venue plan cause major logistical issues as well. So if everything else is going to be in Detroit, then so does the main stadium.

Their best shot was back in the 50's & 60's anyway, when they were actually bidding for the Games on a regular basis, & when Detroit was actually a booming town & it still didn't get it for them. The irony of it all today is, that a Detroit Olympics would be the epitome of urban renewal ever associated with the Games. But Detroit is probably too far gone now for it to pay off in any sort of sense. Thus, that article is more of a hypothetical exercise than one of actual reality.

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I'd say a Detroit-Windsor Olympics could work, despite claims of border control issues, provided it's heavily based and emphasized towards the waterfront of both cities.

You sacrifice some of the car park in downtown Detroit for a main stadium of at least 80,000, the Cobo Center can serve as the International Broadcast Centre, whilst you use a convention facility (or a new one) in Windsor for the Main Press Centre.

Windsor's arenas could serve as the preliminary sites for Basketball, Handball and Volleyball. St Denis Centre Fieldhouse would serve Volleyball Preliminaries at 5,000. Windsor Arena (upgraded) would serve Handball Preliminaries at 5,000. WFCU Centre at 7,000 would serve Basketball Preliminaries. The Colosseum at Caesars Windsor could serve Weightlifting at 5,000. Windsor International Aquatic and Training Centre could serve all aquatics events (Waterpolo might need an additional venue), but the venue would need a complete overhaul of the interior, to fit a main pool (and diving tank) with competition seating for at least 12,000 (5,000 for diving). The other Windsor venues cited are University of Windsor Stadium (for Archery and Field Hockey), Windsor Sportsmen's Club (for Shooting), Parkside Tennis Club (for Tennis) and Ironstone Stables (for Equestrian). A new Velodrome is supposedly proposed for downtown Windsor. I think if they are to propose a new venue/complex for Tennis, Detroit or Ann Arbor would benefit if such a venue were permanent for an additional tournament held annually for the Tennis calendar.

Ann Arbor could host some venues including Michigan Stadium (converted to individual all seater) for Football Finals. Crisler Arena at 13,609 could host either Handball or Volleyball finals. Yost Ice Arena could serve a minor indoor sport.at 6,600+. Additional "new" or temporary venues could be held here too.

Detroit would naturally be the base and have the athlete's village.

Here's my venue list:

NEW:

Olympic Stadium - Detroit - 80,000 - Athletics/Ceremonies
New Tennis Center - Ann Arbor or Detroit - 10,000/6,000/3,000 Tennis
Windsor Velodrome - Windsor - 6,000 - Track Cycling

EXISTING:

Michigan Stadium - Ann Arbor - 100,000+ - Football Finals
Ford Field - Detroit - 64,500 - Football Preliminaries
Palace of Auburn Hills - Detroit - 22,076 - Basketball Finals

Joe Louis Arena - Detroit - 20,066 - Boxing
Detroit Events Center (under construction) - Detroit - 20,000 - Volleyball Finals/Gymnastics

Tom Adams Field - Detroit - 15,000 - Rugby
Crisler Arena - Ann Arbor - 13,609 - Handball Finals
University of Windsor Stadium - Windsor - 12,000 (field 1) and 5,000 (field 2) - Field Hockey
Ironstone Stables - Windsor - various - Equestrian

Calihan Hall - Detroit - 8,837 - Judo/Wrestling
WFCU Centre - Windsor - 7,000 - Basketball Preliminaries

Yost Ice Arena - Ann Arbor - 6,600 - Fencing

State Fair Coliseum - Detroit - 5,600 - Badminton/Rhythmic Gymnastics

Parkside Tennis Club - Windsor - 5,000 - Table Tennis/Taekwondo

The Colosseum at Caesars - Windsor - 5,000 - Weightlifting

Windsor Arena - Windsor - 5,000+ - Volleyball Preliminaries

St Denis Centre Fieldhouse - Windsor - 5,000 - Handball Preliminaries

Windsor Sportsmen's Club - Windsor - 5,000 - Shooting

Detroit Golf Club - Detroit - various - Golf
Lake St. Clair - Detroit - various - Sailing

TEMPORARY:
Detroit Skyline Rowing Course - Detroit - 15,000 - Rowing
Belle Isle Canoeing Course - Detroit - 10,000 - Canoeing
BMX Track - Windsor - 5,000 - BMX Cycling

Belle Isle - Detroit - 5,000 - Beach Volleyball

Belle Isle Whitewater Center - Detroit - 5,000 - Canoe/Kayak Slalom

Mountain Bike Course - Detroit - 3,000 - Mountain Bike Cycling

OPEN VENUES:

International Marathon Course - Detroit/Windsor - various - Athletics Marathon
Detroit Waterfront - Detroit - various - Athletics Walks
Detroit/Windsor Cycling Course - Detroit/Windsor - various - Road Cycling
Belle Isle Triathlon Course - Detroit - various - Triathlon

29 venues. 3: NEW 11%. 21: EXISTING 72%. 5: TEMPORARY 17%.

15 in Detroit = 51%
10 in Windsor = 35%

4 in Ann Arbor = 14%

Detroit/Ann Arbor/Pontiac could benefit from a 2 line subway system as legacy infrastructure. And although there are some issues with border crossings, I do think that with additional services, the new bridge, perhaps a duplication of Ambassador bridge and having the Detroit/Windsor Tunnel for specific use by the Olympic Family, Media and Athletes/Officials, there shouldn't be much issues.

I think a Detroit/Windsor Olympics could work, the first Olympics to transcend borders.

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The Convocation Center at Ypsilanti could serve Table Tennis/Taekwondo instead of Parkside Tennis Club in Windsor at 8,824 in addition Rynearson Stadium on the same site (Eastern Michigan University) could serve Rugby at 30,000.

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I'd say a Detroit-Windsor Olympics could work, despite claims of border control issues, provided it's heavily based and emphasized towards the waterfront of both cities.

I think a Detroit/Windsor Olympics could work, the first Olympics to transcend borders.

Of course you'd say that. And of course you think that.

Of course.. we say you're an idiot. And most of us already think that.

There seem to be few limits to what you think could work. Never mind the obvious issues here of the border crossing (which is a problem, it's not some "claim" as you put it), the distances to some venues (we'll get to that in a sec), and oh yea, the little problem that the city of Detroit filed for bankruptcy 2 years ago. But nah, let's play this out in fantasy land where the city of Detroit magically found money, has any ability whatsoever to win over the USOC, and going from Detroit to Windsor and vice versa is no big deal since you want to pretend it's not..

First off, Ann Arbor is nearly an hour from Detroit with no public transportation links. No, that's not a worthy project because the only people who would use it are college students. There's no point. As to your venue plan, that's cute you think the Palace of Auburn Hills is in Detroit. No.. if it was in Detroit, it would be called the Palace of Detroit. Auburn Hills is a solid 30+ miles outside of Detroit. Again, no good public transportation. No need to build it. And - not that this would matter in your fantasy land venue plan - note that Joe Louis Arena is scheduled to be demolished once the new arena is completed, so that's not an option.

We get that this is a hobby of yours, to think of cities that have little to no real shot of landing an Olympics and coming up with a venue plan. Good for you that you did some research on this. But this forum DESPERATELY needs a line drawn between reality and fantasy. And this one clearly is the latter. Only in a fantasy world could a Detroit Olympic bid work as you have laid it out.

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How about an Atlantis-Atlanta-Atlantic City Olympic triad? That would definitely work. It's called the ATLAN Plan!

Moving athletes and spectators between the 3 cities? No problem. We can make Sensormatic the Official Beam-Me-Up Transporter Partner.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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I think a Detroit/Windsor Olympics could work, the first Olympics to transcend borders.

Sorry, LD. Not meaning to be nitpicky...but that was already Antwerp 1920 (and 1956). A sailing finals was actually held in Dutch waters as the 2 finalist boats were Dutch. So...that title's already been taken and actually carried out.

As for 1956, well, we all know where the Equestrian events were held. So 1956 might actually have been the first Olympics held between non-contiguous jurisdictions.

I know...details...

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The border would definitely need a plan, and it COULD possibly work if they were to allow Olympic delegates and athletes to obtain status that is practically identical to NEXUS status.

For those who don't know, NEXUS is a program where citizens of Canada or the US, where they do a criminal background check, and once they deem you to be low risk, allow you to have a NEXUS card which allows you to use NEXUS lanes at port of entries in Canada or the US. The NEXUS Lane at a customs plaza is kind of like an E-Z Pass Lane, sure, it's not as fast as an EZ Pass Lane, but it's a lot quicker than the regular lanes. As I am a NEXUS member myself, 99% of time I cross going into the US, it is, "Where are you headed? Anything to declare?" and then I'm on my way. Of course, if they do a spot check, which I have had once, and if you have any sort of infraction, you are instantly removed from the program (possibly for life).

Most athletes and delegates I assume will not have had any criminal history, so it COULD be possible to have temporary NEXUS status to allow for more speedy border crossings. But again, this is all easier said than done, an athlete may know a drug smuggler on the other side and get paid a large sum of money to bring it over to the other side as they will be "trusted travelers". Now imagine this same status given to a not so friendly country to Canada/US, say Russia for instance, do we really want to give someone from that country straightforward temporary access between our nations? These are all things as to why the border crossing idea probably wouldn't work.

As for the palace, does it really matter if it's a fair trek up I-75? I mean the IOC is most likely going to demand Olympic Lanes anyways so they can easily get athletes up there. Couldn't SMART run temporary buses that act as express routes up there for the spectators? Although the Pan American Games are much smaller than the Olympics, this strategy was widely in place for getting to the Aquatics Center which was basically in the middle of nowhere so to speak. Again, this is only me thinking out loud. It would be like me discussing my fantasy St. John's, Newfoundland, winter olympics bid, but we won't go there.

I'd like to make a note about isolated venues, the Caledon Equestrian Park, where the Equestrian events were held for Pan Am were impossible to get to by transit, mind you this same venue was the one they had in mind for the 2008 bid. Even if there's no transit access, is that absolutely neccessary to have, considering that the equestrian event will have over 10,000 spectators?

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I would give him credit if it was just a Detroit bid, but the idea that the US of all countries needs the likes of Canada to co-host any Olympic games is laughable at best.

Of course the US doesn't need the likes of Canada, but given the city which did get the nod (Boston) didn't even want it because among other things, cost concerns, spreading the costs around (with Canada) could be beneficial. You're going to use Windsor's hotel capacity and their airport anyways, why not use the wealth of existing venues?

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I would give him credit if it was just a Detroit bid, but the idea that the US of all countries needs the likes of Canada to co-host any Olympic games is laughable at best.

The thing is, it's not just this Detroit/Windsor thing. As Quaker noted, this sort of stuff is a "hobby" (to say the least) of LD's. He fawns, drools & hyperventilates over anything that could be resemble a venue plan, whether realistic or not. So over the years, we've also seen him tout the likes of Edmonton, Baku-koo & of course the delusional Lake Placid 21st century pipedream. IIRC, he even tried to merit a plan for the likes of Tulsa, of all places. So there ya go.

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I would give him credit if it was just a Detroit bid, but the idea that the US of all countries needs the likes of Canada to co-host any Olympic games is laughable at best.

In fairness to LD, he wasn't the one who posted an article from the Detroit Free Press suggesting the idea of a Detroit Olympics that included Windsor. So blame that person for planting that in his head.

That said, most of us would look at something like that and think "no way, that could never happen." Whereas Lord David looks at it and says "ooh, I'm gonna make a venue plan and convince myself it could work and then get others to believe in me!"

Again, as a fantasy exercise (and this is a forum that has logo and bid competitions, so it's not like that doesn't happen here), good for him. But it belongs in a place other than a USA 2024 thread, even if the impetus for it was an misguided opinion piece from someone who probably knows a lot less about Olympic bidding than many of us here do.

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