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Almaty 2022 Olympic Winter Games Will be Compact, Efficient: IOC Application

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Tony, once again your wrong as the day is long! Almaty has little to no venues they need to renovate, please read the damn applicant file.

I wouldn't really trust applicant files just like that.

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Facts are facts. Medeo is not a top of the range, modern Ceremonies style Stadium. It needs an Expansion and a Renovation including a roof. Alot of Venues being built for the 2017 Winter Universiade, are not up to Olympic Standards. Anyway, it's irrelevant, because Almaty won't win.

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Facts are facts. Medeo is not a top of the range, modern Ceremonies style Stadium. It needs an Expansion and a Renovation including a roof. Alot of Venues being built for the 2017 Winter Universiade, are not up to Olympic Standards. Anyway, it's irrelevant, because Almaty won't win.

a roof??? what for??? why roof always needed for a winter olympics ceremony since vancouver??? i'm kinda bored of it....

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a roof??? what for??? why roof always needed for a winter olympics ceremony since vancouver??? i'm kinda bored of it....

Only a roof over the spectators, not the field of play.

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Facts are facts. Medeo is not a top of the range, modern Ceremonies style Stadium. It needs an Expansion and a Renovation including a roof. Alot of Venues being built for the 2017 Winter Universiade, are not up to Olympic Standards. Anyway, it's irrelevant, because Almaty won't win.

No what's irrelevant is Medeu being used as the ceremonies stadium since it's not. It clearly indicated in the applicant bid book that rhe Central Stadium would serve as ceremonies. There were even pictures of it in the book.

It may be used for ceremonies during the Universiade, but during an Olympics.

Edited by Lord David

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Facts are facts. Medeo is not a top of the range, modern Ceremonies style Stadium. It needs an Expansion and a Renovation including a roof. Alot of Venues being built for the 2017 Winter Universiade, are not up to Olympic Standards. Anyway, it's irrelevant, because Almaty won't win.

The Medeo isn't hosting the ceremonies. From what I can see it is only hosting the speed skating events. It's currently at a capacity of 8500 which is more than what Sochi had for the speed skating events. And yes it needs a roof if it wants to host the speed skating events but that's one freaking venue. Facts are facts Almaty has the least amount of renovating and building to do compared to the others.

I wouldn't really trust applicant files just like that.

Oh ok, so we should trust your word over the applicant file.

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I partially understand your point of Beijing being an insurance policy with them hosting a games before, except that they were a summer games. They haven't hosted anything winter related, they have to build a lot of venues and renovate/upgrade nearly the rest unlike Almaty which has over half already built and not needing renovations. (Basing this off the post in the other thread) If they were bidding for a summer games they would be an insurance policy as they are known and tested.

As I've said many times over, how many winter sport related events did Sochi host, besides none, before the got the Winter Games. And how many winter facilities did Sochi have, again besides none, before they got the Games. So why does this aspect hamper Beijing but it didn't mean anything as far as Sochi was concerned. Almaty having some of the facilities already doesn't really mean much if it direly came down just between Beijing & Almaty. Almaty still has to build more regardless. So how is that any much better. It doesn't matter if Beijing 2008 was a Summer Games. Those are even bigger & much more challenging, & the IOC saw first-hand how the Chinese could still deliver great Games despite those challenges. And they could do the same for winter 2022 I don't see Almaty as any insurance policy whatsoever.

And judging by a lot of articles it seems that i'm not the only one who ranks Almaty over Beijing.

What "a lot of articles"? You're just basing that off ONE article from inside the games. Which doesn't even quote these sources of "observers" that claim this. And besides, even if they did, they're just subjective opinions that really can't accurately know how 100+ fastidious & partial individuals are going to vote in a secret ballot. Especially if they're just fanciful opinions that don't really follow these things on a regular basis. More than likely, they're exaggerated, just how like the "Madrid 2020 momentum" hysteria after the Sportsaccord last summer.

And you quoted me first in this thread. And i'm not ok with you bagging out Almaty left right and centre on these forums. so yeah i'm going to keep on replying to you when you post anti Almaty stuff.

I'm really not interested in what you're okay or "not okay" with here. These are forums designed specifically to state one's opinions, whether anyone else agrees with them or not. I'm not "bagging" Almaty anymore than you bagging Beijing. I don't necessarily agree with your anti-China diatribe. I merely quoted you bcuz of your extremely sarcastic comment to zekekelso. And I've yet to still hear those compelling arguments for Almaty, other than they're bid is technically good or they have more venues than x,y or z city.

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Oh ok, so we should trust your word over the applicant file.

Applicant files/bid books are essentially commercials aimed at selling the bid. They are not there to give truly objective information, and I'm sure the IOC knows about it.

If you want to read them as gospel, fine, I prefer to take them with a pinch of salt.

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As I've said many times over, how many winter sport related events did Sochi host, besides none, before the got the Winter Games. And how many winter facilities did Sochi have, again besides none, before they got the Games. So why does this aspect hamper Beijing but it didn't mean anything as far as Sochi was concerned. Almaty having some of the facilities already doesn't really mean much if it direly came down just between Beijing & Almaty. Almaty still has to build more regardless. So how is that any much better. It doesn't matter if Beijing 2008 was a Summer Games. Those are even bigger & much more challenging, & the IOC saw first-hand how the Chinese could still deliver great Games despite those challenges. And they could do the same for winter 2022 I don't see Almaty as any insurance policy whatsoever.

What "a lot of articles"? You're just basing that off ONE article from inside the games. Which doesn't even quote these sources of "observers" that claim this. And besides, even if they did, they're just subjective opinions that really can't accurately know how 100+ fastidious & partial individuals are going to vote in a secret ballot. Especially if they're just fanciful opinions that don't really follow these things on a regular basis. More than likely, they're exaggerated, just how like the "Madrid 2020 momentum" hysteria after the Sportsaccord last summer.

I'm really not interested in what you're okay or "not okay" with here. These are forums designed specifically to state one's opinions, whether anyone else agrees with them or not. I'm not "bagging" Almaty anymore than you bagging Beijing. I don't necessarily agree with your anti-China diatribe. I merely quoted you bcuz of your extremely sarcastic comment to zekekelso. And I've yet to still hear those compelling arguments for Almaty, other than they're bid is technically good or they have more venues than x,y or z city.

And the around the rings article. And I thought that Around the Rings and Inside the Games were the more trusted sources then say a random journalist from CNN, seeing as these sources study the olympics and the bidding. And cool, you can have your own opinion, but i'm not going to ignore when you keep on saying negative comments on Almaty.

And those two compelling things are two more things then Beijing has. Yeah, Almaty isn't the most compelling bid in the race, but it is more compelling then Beijing and perhaps even Krakow. A bid with a lot of venues already in place and not needing renovating is a giant plus, and a new destination especially one that hasn't hosted a games as recent as 7 years earlier when the vote is decided.

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I see you didn't refute the first part of my last post, but that's frankly bcuz you can't.

And the around the rings article. And I thought that Around the Rings and Inside the Games were the more trusted sources then say a random journalist from CNN, seeing as these sources study the olympics and the bidding.

Some would say that about gamesbids, too, but that's not always necessarily the case. Again, even 'the more trusted source' of inside the games talked about 'Madrid's 2020 gaining momentum'. So if you still wanna take that as sacred, go right ahead.

And cool, you can have your own opinion, but i'm not going to ignore when you keep on saying negative comments on Almaty.

No different with your negative Beijing comments. So we should just finally agree to disagree then, like I've asked you to do before. But you have this rabid obscession of continuing to stir the pot.

And those two compelling things are two more things then Beijing has. Yeah, Almaty isn't the most compelling bid in the race, but it is more compelling then Beijing and perhaps even Krakow.

That's in your opinion only. And obviously not everyone agrees with it. I don't see how a country with a virtual dictator, with a population of only 17 million is more compelling than a country with a democratic government, more picturesque scenery & with over 44 million people (which also has never hosted). Or in China's case, 1.5 Billion people by 2022 (which also has never hosted the WINTER Olympics).

A bid with a lot of venues already in place and not needing renovating is a giant plus, and a new destination especially one that hasn't hosted a games as recent as 7 years earlier when the vote is decided.

They don't have "a lot of venues in place" if they're still in the process of building many of them. And yet again, that's not everything, just look at Sochi, which was nothing but a SUMMER resort before bidding for the Winter Olympics.

Beijing also hosting a Summer Olympics seven years prior when the 2022 vote takes place, shouldn't mean much when they're bidding for a Winter Olympics. Lets keep in mind that Sapporo, Japan only lost by three votes to Sarajevo, even though Sapporo had already hosted the same Winter Olympics only six years earlier when the 1984 winter vote took place. So lets not so underestimate Beijing simply by that one little tidbit.

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Again with Sochi and the fact they had nothing...

...They had to choose one of the post Soviet cities and it was clear that Sochi was the best. Sofia, Bulgaria was no where near it's 1992 or 1994 bids (not to mention that there was no shortlist then) and Jaca's bid was dead when they wanted ceremonies to be held in Zaragoza.

It would have been a 2 way race otherwise.

Based on economic power, the fact that Russia hadn't hosted before, Russia's sporting prowess and the fact that Sochi met the basic requirements got them a candidate spot. Then it was simply a PR change, Putin in charge and a uniquely revamped venue plan which got them the bid.

I think with the improvements Almaty has now (they could have made a candidate spot in 2014, if they had passed more benchmarks) it can make and would make a candidate spot all along.

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And your point. Sochi had nothing & had hosted nothing prior, that's a fact. Yet it's what one of you wanna constantly use against Beijing. The amount of venues "on the ground" is irrelevant. What matters is where the IOC has the most confidence, & I believe that'll be the Chinese if push comes to shove. Bcuz you just said it, "economic power". And that's one thing that the Chinese have in spades & they've already proven that they can do it. China has also never hosted the Winter Olympics, either. You think an old high school from 1980 can still hold the world's media in the 21st century, so whatever.

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^^ Never stated that Lake Placid High School can solely hold the world's media if Lake Placid were to host. Just the Press, provided that it's expanded. It has the ideal individual classroom setup, a functioning (potentially expandable) cafeteria etc. Only if it were to be expanded of course.

Beijing has the problem of it being too soon after, well 2008. As well as PyeongChang, and of course Tokyo. Then I'm sure you have some IOC members etc who would rather see Harbin host. They're only the insurance policy if Oslo, or Krakow is not going to work. Almaty should comfortably get a spot because it has the benchmarks which it lacked in 2014. It just needs real convincing if it's going to be "better" than Beijing.

So far their high school quality applicant bid book is not doing well for them.

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I didn't bother replying because we have gone over it so many times before but sure I will.

The IOC took a risk in choosing Sochi. Salzburg was the most technical bid (Almaty) and yet Sochi pulled off a win. However, Salzburg had proposed events in a separate country (Krakow). Either way whether you say Salzburg or Pyeonchang was favorite as both scored higher than Sochi they were both shortlisted! And it's not like any of the 3 cities was a sporting prowess anyway! Yet we know Oslo and Almaty do have experience in that area unlike Beijing. People laugh when I tell them that Beijing is bidding for a winter olympics, seeing as they just hosted a summer games. Yeah cities like Munich which are known to have snow are cities that may host a summer and winter games, but Beijing? ha.

Not even going to bother to rebut the crap about China especially seeing as the air pollution is so high in Beijing they recommended for people to stay inside. But let's ignore that because they have a bunch of people. Who cares about safety anyway. :rolleyes:

The decision for the 1984 olympics was over 35 years ago and a lot of things have changed since then, so trying to use that as an example is pointless.

And for god sakes the only reason i'm replying is because you are replying to me. I left it alone in the other thread and you said you were going to block me and be done with it but you quoted me in this thread. Get over it! If you hate me replying then block me.

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Again, I only quoted you bcuz of your usual snarky remarks to another member. Which I then simply & civily asked you what is so compelling about Kazahkstan, & which I have yet to hear. Instead it didn't you long to yet again continue with your snotty rhetoric.

And if you wanna go by the simplistic laughs about other people about Beijing, go right ahead. I'm sure they're also quite the "experts". But if you wanna take that route, people that I've come across cite Almaty's stigma & remoteness too similar to Sochi's criticism for the IOC to wanna bother. As a matter of fact, I have a friend who is nowhere near the Olympic nuts that we are here, but has cited the last four Olympic bidding cycles right on target. So of course I asked him about 2022, & after giving him the options, without hesitation he picks Krakow. His reasons always seem to be in jest (& "never having hosted"), but he's right on all the times that I've asked him. So I'm not necessarily going to start doubting him now. Especially when I myself few the Poles as the darkhorse in this race.

And no, citing Sarajevo's win from 35 years ago is not "pointless". You Almaty lovers are the ones who brought up Sarajevo TBW, so it's decision is also relevant to the topic. A lot of things with the Games themselves have changed, but the geopolitical circumstances that ultimately steer these decisions have not. Like winter 1984, the 2022 field is weak. So it won't matter that Beijing has hosted another set of completely different set of Games in 2008. Their air pollution is a problem, but they're already working on it. Beijing is not ideal, never said it was. But considering the dire circumstances of this race, it's too simplistic to dismiss the Chinese for any of the simple reasons you've cited. Yeah, I said I wasn't going to bother responding anylonger, but if you still insist on your anti-China rants & "bagging" Beijing, then I more than likely am going to refute your gibberish.

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The upshot of all this is that beggars can't be choosers. The IOC should take everyone through to the candidate stage that they believe can stage decent (if not fantastic) Winter Games. At this point, I think that's everyone, but Lviv.

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Again, I only quoted you bcuz of your usual snarky remarks to another member. Which I then simply & civily asked you what is so compelling about Kazahkstan, & which I have yet to hear. Instead it didn't you long to yet again continue with your snotty rhetoric.

And if you wanna go by the simplistic laughs about other people about Beijing, go right ahead. I'm sure they're also quite the "experts". But if you wanna take that route, people that I've come across cite Almaty's stigma & remoteness too similar to Sochi's criticism for the IOC to wanna bother. As a matter of fact, I have a friend who is nowhere near the Olympic nuts that we are here, but has cited the last four Olympic bidding cycles right on target. So of course I asked him about 2022, & after giving him the options, without hesitation he picks Krakow. His reasons always seem to be in jest (& "never having hosted"), but he's right on all the times that I've asked him. So I'm not necessarily going to start doubting him now. Especially when I myself few the Poles as the darkhorse in this race.

And no, citing Sarajevo's win from 35 years ago is not "pointless". You Almaty lovers are the ones who brought up Sarajevo TBW, so it's decision is also relevant to the topic. A lot of things with the Games themselves have changed, but the geopolitical circumstances that ultimately steer these decisions have not. Like winter 1984, the 2022 field is weak. So it won't matter that Beijing has hosted another set of completely different set of Games in 2008. Their air pollution is a problem, but they're already working on it. Beijing is not ideal, never said it was. But considering the dire circumstances of this race, it's too simplistic to dismiss the Chinese for any of the simple reasons you've cited. Yeah, I said I wasn't going to bother responding anylonger, but if you still insist on your anti-China rants & "bagging" Beijing, then I more than likely am going to refute your gibberish.

@FYI, you provide us with some strong and good points towards the Beijing Bid, except that you can't really trust Beijing to clear up their act with the whole Pollution problems. They said they were going to clear up their act for the 2008 Summer Olympics and Paralympics, we gave them the benefit of the doubt and a chance. They didn't clear up their act, how do you expect any of us to think they will this time, especially as the Pollution levels are worse in the Winter. Yes, Venues are in place, infrastructure in place, but the Pollution and Communism does overshadow that.

The upshot of all this is that beggars can't be choosers. The IOC should take everyone through to the candidate stage that they believe can stage decent (if not fantastic) Winter Games. At this point, I think that's everyone, but Lviv.

I can't see Lviv being the only Bidder eliminated. I'm slowly starting to favour Beijing over Almaty, so I would like to see Oslo, Krakow and Beijing go through to Candidate City stage.

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The upshot of all this is that beggars can't be choosers. The IOC should take everyone through to the candidate stage that they believe can stage decent (if not fantastic) Winter Games. At this point, I think that's everyone, but Lviv.

If that's the case, then why not just include Lviv, too. A lot can change within the next eight years in Ukraine.

@FYI, you provide us with some strong and good points towards the Beijing Bid, except that you can't really trust Beijing to clear up their act with the whole Pollution problems. They said they were going to clear up their act for the 2008 Summer Olympics and Paralympics, we gave them the benefit of the doubt and a chance. They didn't clear up their act, how do you expect any of us to think they will this time, especially as the Pollution levels are worse in the Winter. Yes, Venues are in place, infrastructure in place, but the Pollution and Communism does overshadow that.

Compared to as polluted as it was prior to them getting the 2008 Games, the Chinese DID clean up their act for the 2008 Games. The cesspool that was Beijing TBW was never going to be completely clean with only seven years lead-time. The same could said with 2022. Like AF just said, beggars can't be choosers.

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Pssst - Tony. I'm pretty sure Beijing never promised to permanently rid the city of polution. So you can't hold that against them. You can point out that polution in Winter 2022 should be much worse than it was in summer 2008, so there's no guarantee the city can be cleaned for the games.

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Lviv is way too much of a gamble and there's no way they can put together a strong, reassuring bid before the vote. They're definitely out.

The IOC is not going to boot another city just to give Lviv company. They're only going to boot a city if they have no confidence in it.

Almaty is perhaps the best bid technically. It just won't be scrapped in favor of Beijing. Beijing won't be scrapped despite its technical problems due to politics. Oslo is obviously not going anywhere. So that leaves Krakow -- a binational bid that has some IOC members lined up against it already, but is the only European backup for Oslo.

Consider this: if the IOC eliminates Lviv and Almaty, what happens if the Norwegian government kills Oslo's bid and Krakow's referendum goes down in defeat? Beijing hosts by default. This is not a totally inconceivable scenario. I am not convinced that Almaty wouldn't be preferable to Beijing.

I'm expecting a shortlist of four cities.

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I don't think anyone has denied that. I think what some are doing now is citing that Almaty is somehow some sort of insurance policy in case both Oslo & Krakow falter, which I don't agree with. One coulda also made a case for the Ukraine eight years ago, but now look at them. Their situation pretty much changed overnight, & there are several elements that could make Almaty politically questionable in the coming years. I'm sure if push came to shove, the IOC would much rather take the challenge of the reliable Chinese clean up their polluted mess than traveling into the realm of questionable political uncertainty, if it did indeed ultimately came down to those two dire options.

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Ukraine and Kazakhstan are completely different. Kazakhstan's economy has recovered from and grown past the pre-collapse state. Ukraine's still hasn't. Ukraine has never been in a position to financially back a bid and they delivered their half of Euro 2012 by the skin of their teeth.

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Again, I only quoted you bcuz of your usual snarky remarks to another member. Which I then simply & civily asked you what is so compelling about Kazahkstan, & which I have yet to hear. Instead it didn't you long to yet again continue with your snotty rhetoric.

And no, citing Sarajevo's win from 35 years ago is not "pointless". You Almaty lovers are the ones who brought up Sarajevo TBW, so it's decision is also relevant to the topic. A lot of things with the Games themselves have changed, but the geopolitical circumstances that ultimately steer these decisions have not. Like winter 1984, the 2022 field is weak. So it won't matter that Beijing has hosted another set of completely different set of Games in 2008. Their air pollution is a problem, but they're already working on it. Beijing is not ideal, never said it was. But considering the dire circumstances of this race, it's too simplistic to dismiss the Chinese for any of the simple reasons you've cited. Yeah, I said I wasn't going to bother responding anylonger, but if you still insist on your anti-China rants & "bagging" Beijing, then I more than likely am going to refute your gibberish.

I have told you time and time again the compelling things about Almaty. It is not my fault you refuse to accept them. The 2022 field isn't ridiculously weak. I wouldn't be surprised if it lasted more then the one round of voting we saw for 2018. And the fact that they already hosted a games isn't the only problem. Eastern Asia will also be hosting the 2018 olympics AND the 2020 olympics. Will they really go for the same region 3 times in a row? That's why a new country/destination (Almaty) in a way is a compelling argument. And we all know the IOC love a legacy. And hosting a games only to turn around 6 years later to having awful air pollution levels not reccomended for humans isn't a great legacy. And simply saying don't worry they'll somewhat fix it again for games only to then screw it up again is just a slap in the face.

And I don't mind you continuing to argue with me, but stop threatening to block me or asking me to lay off your "fu@king back".

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I have told you time and time again the compelling things about Almaty. It is not my fault you refuse to accept them. The 2022 field isn't ridiculously weak. I wouldn't be surprised if it lasted more then the one round of voting we saw for 2018.

And the fact that they already hosted a games isn't the only problem. Eastern Asia will also be hosting the 2018 olympics AND the 2020 olympics. Will they really go for the same region 3 times in a row? That's why a new country/destination (Almaty) in a way is a compelling argument.

And I don't mind you continuing to argue with me, but stop threatening to block me or asking me to lay off your "fu@king back".

When Almaty has to rely on the fact that the top two bids have to falter in order for them to be seriously considered isn't exactly c

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...compelling. I don't refuse to accept any of your reasons anymore than you refuse to accept mine. I don't find Almaty compelling, & that's where my position is on the matter. Just like you don't find a particular country, where it would mean an entire new continent, not compelling either. 2022 wouldn't be weak if it weren't for Oslo's ambivalence & now this new referendum in Krakow. Otherwise, it'd be a no-brainer.

Again, three East Asian Olympics in a row isn't ideal, & I never said it was. But like it's been said many times, beggars can't be choosers. Oslo is not a done deal, & now Krakow seems to be playing hard ball. So then you have to look at your alternatives that you have left just in case.

I don't care if you wanna continue to refute these arguments either. But when you come on here being snooty & condescending as hell is what I have a problem with. If you did them in a much more civil manner, it would make these boards much better to read for everyone involved. But by now, we're just going around in circles. Neither of us is going to change the others mind. And it's just time that we finally must agree to disagree on this issue.

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