Lord David Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 When Almaty has to rely on the fact that the top two bids have to falter in order for them to be seriously considered isn't exactly c Actually it never had to rely on the top two bids failing. It was always a better bid than what it offered in 2014. What would be their downfall is a sloppy unprofessional bid. We're seeing this with their applicant book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olympic Fan Darcy Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 ...compelling. I don't refuse to accept any of your reasons anymore than you refuse to accept mine. I don't find Almaty compelling, & that's where my position is on the matter. Just like you don't find a particular country, where it would mean an entire new continent, not compelling either. 2022 wouldn't be weak if it weren't for Oslo's ambivalence & now this new referendum in Krakow. Otherwise, it'd be a no-brainer. Again, three East Asian Olympics in a row isn't ideal, & I never said it was. But like it's been said many times, beggars can't be choosers. Oslo is not a done deal, & now Krakow seems to be playing hard ball. So then you have to look at your alternatives that you have left just in case. I don't care if you wanna continue to refute these arguments either. But when you come on here being snooty & condescending as hell is what I have a problem with. If you did them in a much more civil manner, it would make these boards much better to read for everyone involved. But by now, we're just going around in circles. Neither of us is going to change the others mind. And it's just time that we finally must agree to disagree on this issue. Yes beggars can't be choosers. Luckily the IOC don't have to go for the lesser quality bid in a region that will have 2 games in a row. Instead they have Almaty. And i'm not calling Almaty the favorite and yes for them to win Oslo would have to fail however Krakow isn't turning out to be the 2nd favorite according to some anyway. My point all along is that Almaty is better than Beijing and proving to you that Almaty will be shortlisted perhaps even along with Beijing. However, and seems others on here agree with me, flat out denying them as shortlist-worthy is a tad well let's say strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athensfan Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 When Almaty has to rely on the fact that the top two bids have to falter in order for them to be seriously considered isn't exactly c What are the top two bids? Oslo and what? All the others have problems. I don't see a clear number two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.bernham Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 Really loving Gamesbids Movie Week! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 Come up with your own line. :-P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony E Loves Architecture Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 Beijing is more of an insurance policy than Almaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.bernham Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 Tony please, while China as a nation is an insurance policy, in terms of cost and location Almaty out-numbers them. The IOC will not want to deal with high cost, high criticism, and the little bug that follows China everywhere; human rights. While Almaty has some similar issues, we (the west) do not see Kazakhstan as an economic or military threat, like we either knowingly or subliminally view China and Russia. Therefore I think we would overlook Almaty's issues (as the IOC would have no problem with) if they were to host. One of the biggest criticisms and banes of the IOC is the cost of hosting, Almaty would eliminate that discussion, and that gains them brownie-points and the status of insurance policy for the IOC. That's my final say on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zekekelso Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 One of the biggest criticisms and banes of the IOC is the cost of hosting, But does the IOC care? Given a choice of two otherwise equal host cities, does the IOC go with the city that wan't to be resonsible and "cheaply" repurpose exiting venues? Or do they go with the city willing and able to spend vast sums building monumental venues and parks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 C'mon, let's be real here. The IOC says that they wanna keep costs down, but they have to put their money where their month is first. And if they're going to do that, they're gonna do it with the Norwegians, if they don't bail, & not anyone else. You don't hear them chanting their calls other than for the Norwegians as far as "getting back to basics". And besides, it's not like Kazahkstan could spend the vast amounts that Russia & China could in the first place. Kazahkstan is still very iffy politically speaking, & I can't see the IOC wanting to take that risk, even if it were to be low, just for the sake of it. Some of you are really overrating what Almaty could do & seriously under rating what the IOC is willing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony E Loves Architecture Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 As much as I have problems with Beijing and their Human Rights and Environment records, Beijing has delivered before. Beijing has more Hosting experience over Almaty. Anyway Oslo will win. If Oslo withdraws, Krakow will win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.bernham Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 @ Krakow's bid really is not THAT great, and it is already facing strong opposition in the IOC. I do not think Almaty will win and I am a supporter of Oslo, but I do think Almaty will be the insurance policy this time round. I guess will see come July. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanMUC Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 If Oslo goes out, I'm sure the so-called opposition against Kraków will fade away. My guess is the IOC would rather go for zhe bi-national solution than come under fire for yet another autocratic Games, which would be any of Almaty or Beijing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zekekelso Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 it is already facing strong opposition in the IOC. . Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 As much as I have problems with Beijing and their Human Rights and Environment records, Beijing has delivered before. Beijing has more Hosting experience over Almaty. Anyway Oslo will win. If Oslo withdraws, Krakow will win. i'm not sure that beijing has any winter experience and krakow? not sure they can win by borrowing other nation's mountains Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faster Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 @ Krakow's bid really is not THAT great, and it is already facing strong opposition in the IOC. I do not think Almaty will win and I am a supporter of Oslo, but I do think Almaty will be the insurance policy this time round. I guess will see come July. Source? There are traditionalist members within the IOC that do not want a can of worms opened if any kind of binational bid is allowed. I checked with my Olympics university professor. From what he heard it is generally the federations that are not happy with Krakow's bid. And FIS is thinking about rejecting Beijing's proposals. The IFs 'seem' to be lining up in support of Oslo. But how much that means when 60%+ of the IOC couldn't give too sh!ts about the OWG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olympic Fan Darcy Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Beijing is more of an insurance policy than Almaty. Can you seriously stop blurting crap without backing it up. You have been called out on this before and have apologized and yet you do it again. Just stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athensfan Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 But does the IOC care? Given a choice of two otherwise equal host cities, does the IOC go with the city that wan't to be resonsible and "cheaply" repurpose exiting venues? Or do they go with the city willing and able to spend vast sums building monumental venues and parks? That's not an accurate representation of the choice between Beijing and Almaty. Beijing: spread out venue plan. good amount of new construction needed, especially for snow sports very recent host clearly East Asia A fairly known quantity Almaty: Compact venue plan Little new construction needed Never hosted Representing itself as Eurasia. An more unknown quantity I am not sure which way the IOC would lean in this situation. I'm sure they're hoping they aren't faced with that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanMUC Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 There are traditionalist members within the IOC that do not want a can of worms opened if any kind of binational bid is allowed. I checked with my Olympics university professor. From what he heard it is generally the federations that are not happy with Krakow's bid. And FIS is thinking about rejecting Beijing's proposals. The IFs 'seem' to be lining up in support of Oslo. But how much that means when 60%+ of the IOC couldn't give too sh!ts about the OWG. All fine and well for the traditionalists and the IFs, but if Oslo drops out, they need a Plan B too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony E Loves Architecture Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 It is starting to look like that it will be tough for the IOC if Oslo pulls out. Can you seriously stop blurting crap without backing it up. You have been called out on this before and have apologized and yet you do it again. Just stop. Oh right, I get it. Just like you did with @FYI, you attack us for disagreeing with you. Not getting dragged into your opinionated arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zekekelso Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 That's not an accurate representation of the choice between Beijing and Almaty. I wasn't making representations of the choice between Bejing and Almaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.bernham Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 @ Tony it's not that you disagree it's that unlike FYI you do not provide proof of why you believe what you believe, if your comments were longer and had strong points to back up your statements we still may disagree and fight, but we would respect you a whole lot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony E Loves Architecture Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 @ Tony it's not that you disagree it's that unlike FYI you do not provide proof of why you believe what you believe, if your comments were longer and had strong points to back up your statements we still may disagree and fight, but we would respect you a whole lot more. How is it that I have no proof? Facts are facts, overall, Beijing has more Hosting experience than Almaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.bernham Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Tony I'm talking about overall, you need to state your proof or evidence of why you believe something when you comment on a topic this divided. And they have to be good facts and reasons too, sure Beijing has "hosting experience" but only for a Summer Games, Almaty has more winter hosting experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Beijing: spread out venue plan. very recent host Almaty: Never hosted Representing itself as Eurasia. Beijing's venue plan isn't more spread out than Oslo's or Krakow's. China has hosted the Summer Games, not the WNTER Games. The Eurasia angle & never having hosted didn't help Istanbul. Beijing: A fairly known quantity Almaty: An more unknown quantity I am not sure which way the IOC would lean in this situation. I'm sure they're hoping they aren't faced with that decision. Beijing is much more than a 'fairly' known quantity. There a well-proven reliable one, & quite clear based on that alone which way the IOC would lean to in that dismal situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.bernham Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 FYI were not talking about Oslo and Krakow, were talking about Beijing and Almaty. And while Oslo and Krakow are spread out, they are the only two realistic European bids so they will be shortlisted. Beijing on the other hand is in East Asia, the same region that 2018 and 2020 will host. When you factor in Beijings negatives it becomes a HUGE gamble for the IOC, maybe if they were bidding with Harbin things would be easier, but they are not and now China faces some tough challenges they need to overcome. Beijing's 2008 scandal (those games should have and would have been Toronto's) could also hurt their bid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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