Almaty 2022 Won't Overspend

[FYI]

Okay, so what's so "compelling", according to "you", about Kazahkstan - a nation that has NO winter sport tradition (which is what you like to use about South Africa ie the medal table). A nation, governed by a dictator, on the smallish side (compared to China) with its OWN human rights issues. Since that's what you like to use against China, then you have to take that into account with Kazahkstan. And if your main argument is that Kazahkstan has never hosted before, so fricken what! Precisely what you say against South Africa. So if that's all you have, then that's "bull crap", since you're then only citing complete double-standards here.

Just like how they will ignore South Africa because it is untested... not.

Not true at all. South Africa has already been tested & welcomed the world with the FIFA 2010 WC. Which is much more meaning than some smallish regional games or some universaide.

*meaningful.

[Olympic Fan Darcy]

Universiade and regional games is better then nothing unlike Beijing for a WINTER games.

And no. South Africa like China is riddled with issues. However, I would bet any money that if South Africa bid they would be shortlisted. And i'm not saying that Almaty is the freaking favorite, i'm saying they deserve to be shortlisted. You keep saying that Almaty ranks extremely low along with Lviv which is BS.

Yeah Almaty is a new region, poses a much more compact bid then Beijing, is a repeat bidder. Also I remember people mentioning that we haven't had a majority Muslim country host when Istanbul bids, Kazahkstan is as well.

That last point was a little throw in point and i'm not saying IOC members are going to say whoop Muslim country they have my vote but Almaty has more then you give them credit for.

I'm not trying to convince you that they are the best thing since sliced bread, I am trying to convince you they deserve to be shortlisted.

[FYI]

Yet again, how many events did Sochi host, besides none, before they won. Don't conveniently ignore that.

And I've NEVER ranked Almaty "along" with Lviv. All I've said is that they rank fourth after the other three. So don't put words in my mouth.

And Almaty really isn't a "repeat" bidder in the sense they were short-listed the last time. So it's not like the IOC is all that familiar with them, especially when that attempt was eight years ago. And I wouldn't compare moreso democratic Turkey than kinda backwards Kazahstan. The two don't really compare.

And I'm not convinced that they "deserve" to be short-listed either. You were totally wrong about Doha, & I'm sure that'll be the case here, unless Oslo withdraws. Then that changes the whole game. But again, let it go already, geez. We're NEVER going to agree on this.

[zekekelso]

RSA hosted the World Cup. Durban hosted seven soccer matches spread over more than three weeks.

[Tony E Loves Architecture]

Oslo is by far the front runner, no questioning that. Krakow is second, a 'back up' just in case Oslo pulls out. Beijing and Almaty are very close in there bid strengths. I have pointed out that Beijing currently has more issues than Almaty, with Human Rights, Pollution, Communism, Law system and damaged international relations. But, Beijing has more sporting hosting experience than Almaty, so Beijing has more experience, but Almaty has less issues, which in my opinion, puts them close. So in my personal view, if Oslo AND Krakow were both to pull out, it would be a very tight race between Beijing and Almaty for the reasons I stated above.

[FYI]

^those "reasons" have all been countered already.

RSA hosted the World Cup. Durban hosted seven soccer matches spread over more than three weeks.

If some can attribute the much smaller winter Asian games, which Almaty CO-hosted with Astana in the first place, then we also attribute the WC matches to Durban. Plus, between those two, there's really no denying which one has the best narrative to be the most attractive to the IOC in the grand scheme of things.

[Tony E Loves Architecture]

^those "reasons" have all been countered already.

If some can attribute the much smaller winter Asian games, which Almaty CO-hosted with Astana in the first place, then we also attribute the WC matches to Durban. Plus, between those two, there's really no denying which one has the best narrative to be the most attractive to the IOC in the grand scheme of things.

See. That don't help matters for Almaty. Like you said, Almaty had to CO-Host a much smaller Asian Winter Games with Astana.

[Olympic Fan Darcy]

Yet again, how many events did Sochi host, besides none, before they won. Don't conveniently ignore that.

And I've NEVER ranked Almaty "along" with Lviv. All I've said is that they rank fourth after the other three. So don't put words in my mouth.

And Almaty really isn't a "repeat" bidder in the sense they were short-listed the last time. So it's not like the IOC is all that familiar with them, especially when that attempt was eight years ago. And I wouldn't compare moreso democratic Turkey than kinda backwards Kazahstan. The two don't really compare.

And I'm not convinced that they "deserve" to be short-listed either. You were totally wrong about Doha, & I'm sure that'll be the case here, unless Oslo withdraws. Then that changes the whole game. But again, let it go already, geez. We're NEVER going to agree on this.

Yeah Sochi had hosted basically nothing, and yet when I look at the evaluation for the 2014 games Sochi scored rather well in experience from past sporting experience, no clue how that worked out. It's not like Sochi was the favorite for the 2014 games anyway, Pyeongchang was the favorite and had a much stronger bid.

Ok then, so you'd rank Almaty extremely close to Beijing just in 4th place? In which case they should be shortlisted? Is that your opinion?

Almaty still bid for the games and had the 4th highest evaluation just missing out on being shortlisted.

I wasn't comparing the democratic aspect of the two countries, I was mentioning that it would be the first host city in a Muslim dominated country.

Ah yes for the millionth time you bring up Doha again, just drop it already. Yeah they were evaluated high enough to be shortlisted and the IOC dug themselves in a hole by blaming the climate/dates as why they weren't shortlisted when the real reason was the country is f##ked up.

And I would let it go if you didn't keep throwing your anti-Almaty comments everywhere that Almaty is mentioned.

[Olympic Fan Darcy]

^those "reasons" have all been countered already.

If some can attribute the much smaller winter Asian games, which Almaty CO-hosted with Astana in the first place, then we also attribute the WC matches to Durban. Plus, between those two, there's really no denying which one has the best narrative to be the most attractive to the IOC in the grand scheme of things.

And no you didn't actually counter China's awful human rights record etc etc. All you said was "it's fricken CHINA, for Pete's sake" and that "those issues didn't matter for 2008 and they cleaned them up for the games"

Well they didn't really clean them up if the country is already back to arresting dissidents and the air pollution is still a major issues along with all the other things I listed. And your only response is that it's the largest country in the world. So does that make it ok? Will the IOC really just ignore every single problem in China because it is China? They already did that for 2008! Not going to do it again this soon.

Yeah "whoop dee doo" Durban had some WC matches. Almaty co-hosted the winter asian games and will host the universiade and Beijing has hosted..... nothing major for the winter sports.

[FYI]

And I would let it go if you didn't keep throwing your anti-Almaty comments everywhere that Almaty is mentioned.

You mean like you with your "anti-Beijing" diatribe whenever Beijing is mentioned. And this is an Almaty thread, so where else can I fricken mentioned it then.

Ah yes for the millionth time you bring up Doha again, just drop it already. Yeah they were evaluated high enough to be shortlisted and the IOC dug themselves in a hole by blaming the climate/dates as why they weren't shortlisted when the real reason was the country is f##ked up.

No, I'm not going to let Doha go. Bcuz just like you were being totally insufferable with them back then, is EXACTLY how you're being with Almaty now. You were wrong then. And most likely will be wrong this time, too (unless Oslo withdraws. Then that changes the entire game).

I wasn't comparing the democratic aspect of the two countries, I was mentioning that it would be the first host city in a Muslim dominated country.

Why does this matter, though, according to your 'logic'. Okay, so first Muslim host. "whoop dee doo", to quote you. If being a whole new continent doesn't matter to you, like in South Africa's case, then how different is the Muslim angle, besides it isn't.

Almaty co-hosted the winter asian games and will host the universiade and Beijing has hosted..... nothing major for the winter sports.

AGAIN, what "winter stuff" had Sochi hosted before the got the winter games. Especially when they had NO winter venues whatsoever to do so. So who knows what that report was actually citing. Which just goes to show, the IOC can make or brake a bid if it seems fit for them to do so at any given time.

And no you didn't actually counter China's awful human rights record etc etc. All you said was "it's fricken CHINA, for Pete's sake" and that "those issues didn't matter for 2008 and they cleaned them up for the games"

Well they didn't really clean them up if the country is already back to arresting dissidents and the air pollution is still a major issues along with all the other things I listed. And your only response is that it's the largest country in the world. So does that make it ok? Will the IOC really just ignore every single problem in China because it is China? They already did that for 2008! Not going to do it again this soon.

"Good God", a lot of that has been discussed on these forums already, even in this very thread. So I'm not going to bother rehashing it. You've also yet to answer what makes Kazachkstan so compelling according to you besides "it'd be the first Muslim host", "they're a repeat bidder", "they almost made the short-list last time", big whip. None of that means anything substantial.

For the UMPTEENTH time, I'm not claiming that Beijing is the clear-favorite, however, they're the only reliable back up plan that the IOC really has considering all the variables of the 2022 race. You don't, agree fine, whatever. But for the third time already, LET IT GO!! Only a week has gone by (after the last time I asked you to drop it) & here you are again being your complete insufferable self, like a little Tony brat wanting to have the last say. I had you on my ignore list for a while, but took you off cuz I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt again. Think it's damn time to put your a$s back on it.

[Olympic Fan Darcy]

(unless Oslo withdraws. Then that changes the entire game).

Don't even try to throw this in as a back up option in case Almaty makes the shortlist and Oslo doesn't. I don't want to be hearing for years "the only reason Almaty was shortlisted was because Oslo dropped out".

You mean like you with your "anti-Beijing" diatribe whenever Beijing is mentioned. And this is an Almaty thread, so where else can I fricken mentioned it then.

Why does this matter, though, according to your 'logic'. Okay, so first Muslim host. "whoop dee doo", to quote you. If being a whole new continent doesn't matter to you, like in South Africa's case, then how different is the Muslim angle, besides it isn't.

AGAIN, what "winter stuff" had Sochi hosted before the got the winter games. Especially when they had NO winter venues whatsoever to do so. So who knows what that report was actually citing. Which just goes to show, the IOC can make or brake a bid if it seems fit for them to do so at any given time.

"Good God", a lot of that has been discussed on these forums already, even in this very thread. So I'm not going to bother rehashing it. You've also yet to answer what makes Kazachkstan so compelling according to you besides "it'd be the first Muslim host", "they're a repeat bidder", "they almost made the short-list last time", big whip. None of that means anything substantial.

For the UMPTEENTH time, I'm not claiming that Beijing is the clear-favorite, however, they're the only reliable back up plan that the IOC really has considering all the variables of the 2022 race. You don't, agree fine, whatever. But for the third time already, LET IT GO!! Only a week has gone by (after the last time I asked you to drop it) & here you are again being your complete insufferable self, like a little Tony brat wanting to have the last say. I had you on my ignore list for a while, but took you off cuz I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt again. Think it's damn time to put your a$s back on it.

Ha the hypocrisy riddled throughout your argument. You say I haven't said why Kazakhstan is compelling yet the reasons I have said you won't accept, yet Beijing's only compelling argument is um that it's China?

And just freaking block me already instead of threatening to do it and then replying to me!

[Lord David]

Almaty would have made the shortlist regardless of Oslo staying or bowing out. If Stockholm stayed, it probably would have as well. Stockholm making the shortlist would have probably made the total number to 5 bidders, Lviv obviously getting nowhere.

[FYI]

Don't even try to throw this in as a back up option in case Almaty makes the shortlist and Oslo doesn't. I don't want to be hearing for years "the only reason Almaty was shortlisted was because Oslo dropped out".

"Good God", you are so fu@king ANNOYING!! Why did I just know that you were gonna come back with more of your bile! Get the fu@k off my back already, wil'ya! And don't worry, you won't have to, cuz your silly a$s will be on ignore!

Ha the hypocrisy riddled throughout your argument. You say I haven't said why Kazakhstan is compelling yet the reasons I have said you won't accept, yet Beijing's only compelling argument is um that it's China?

And just freaking block me already instead of threatening to do it and then replying to me!

"Hah", POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK! All of your posts are "riddled" with drivel. And why should I "accept" your "whoop dee doo" reasons when you don't accept anyone else's . You act like a big f'n child & have so the day you got here. But I'm done with this, can't continue stooping to your level anylonger. So have fun arguing with yourself, cuz I'm sure that you're gonna post more of your nonsense.

[FYI]

Almaty would have made the shortlist regardless of Oslo staying or bowing out. If Stockholm stayed, it probably would have as well. Stockholm making the shortlist would have probably made the total number to 5 bidders, Lviv obviously getting nowhere.

I can't envision that, not when you have senior IOC members vigorously courting the Norweigians to stay in the race & when they're saying that the Winter Olympics "must go back to basics". Only Oslo truly signifies that & I can't see the EB wanting to keep the field that busy when the remaining others don't really represent any of what they're saying ATM.

[Tony E Loves Architecture]

Oslo and Krakow are definitely going to be on the shortlist. I think there will be 3 Candidate Cities. I can't see them not accepting only 1 city. So I think Lviv will definitely not make the list, with the Ukraine Crisis nearly making that concrete. Like I've stated before, Almaty and Beijing are close Bids. So Oslo, Krakow and either Beijing OR Almaty (Not both) will make the list. I think Beijing might only just edge past Almaty if I'm honest. But Oslo will win in my opinion. Strong, concrete, winter powerhouse, traditional and safe destination for the Winter Olympics in 2022.

[zekekelso]

when the remaining others don't really represent any of what they're saying ATM.

What IOC members say, and what they do aren't always the same thing. But Olso - if they bid - should be head and sholders above the others for many reasons.

[FYI]

Under normal circumstances, I would agree. But a lot of what they seem to be doing right now is coinciding with what they're saying in regards to Oslo. They are desperately wanting to keep the Norwegians in, since that is the last traditional solid option that hasn't flown the coop yet. And with the exception of perhaps Krakow, the remaining others are most likely to them, "well, better than nothing, we suppose".

[Roger87]

Seriously, this debate from the China detractors aka Olympic Fan Darcy is tiresome and annonying like a vendetta.

[Roger87]

China- Media censorship, internet censhorship. Only recently just removed the one child policy... dreadful environmental issues including air pollution in the city co-hosting the games. Then there is all the appauling human rights issues in China.

Ah good stuff.

Media Censorship - Again is the same for most of dear spots Doha, Almaty and others.

Dreadful Environmental issues - And still they clean up the air and some issues by 2008. Morally wrong but they can do it. The same we can apply to the Kazakhs with the recent water issues and growning extraction of oil.

Removed One child policy - Is this a bad thing or good thing? Because for the individual rights is a good thing (With responsable planification). In that sense, removing that draconian law -Which is same in other countries like Singapore- is a good thing. Also, that's preventing terrible cases of illegal abortions and deaths for second children. I'm in favor of familiar planification, but using these draconian statements are terrible for human rights (Ironic for your part). Also Kazhakstan has terrible record with human rights and political opposition, in some cases that the Chinese.

In that point, my question will be... Why defending a small country with no relevance in international relations with the same or even worse problems, small interests and economy to overcome China? A country with only 17 million of habitants with a stangant middle class consumers (Which it's not the problem of Norway), with not clear tradition of winter sports and lack of proper prestige or power? Especially when the IOC has a token candidate with potential profits even from risks.

And finally saying that Beijing doesn't have a reasonable chance because they didn't host the "irrelevant" Universiade (The event for small and even C-List cities). Like, it will make better Almaty as contender.

And that's my end of this vicious circle.

[Tony E Loves Architecture]

Even though Almaty are Hosting the 2017 Winter Universiade, if they win 2022 Winter Olympics, alot of Venues would still need renovation to meet Olympic requirements IMO.