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Almaty 2022 Won't Overspend


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Apart from Beijing's hosting experience, Beijing has more issues than Almaty on the Political side of the matter. Beijing has major pollution issues, bad human rights records and bad relations with Taiwan, Tibet, Macau, Hong Kong and Japan. Almaty's only issue is that Eastern Europe hosted recently at Sochi 2014. Also, Almaty still might have memories of being part of the Soviet Union. Will that be a problem? I don't know.

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You do know Almaty is in Central Asia, right?

To be fair though, the Kazakh government likes to claim Kazakhstan is European whenever it sees fit, just because a small portion of the country is indeed geographically European. That brought them into UEFA and OSCE, for example. Obviously, Almaty is not a European city though.

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Almaty's only issue is that Eastern Europe hosted recently at Sochi 2014.

No, that's not Almaty's "only" issue. They have several. But that is one of them. The country is virtually "governed" by a dictator. We just had that with Putin, so we don't need another dictator Games so soon. Besides, it's not like Kazachkstan is a China or a Russia for the IOC to put up with such a thing again.

Almaty would just be another PR disaster just like Sochi was. Plus, their "experience" is very much overrated. The events that they've hosted or will host are very minor league. Plus, Kazahkstan has only won an overall seven medals at the Winter Olympics. Poland got that many just in Sochi 2014 alone! So why some people make a big stinkin' fuss over Almaty is truly fascinating!

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Sorry what winter stuff has Beijing and zhangjiakou hosted?

Not even going to bother with the whole dictator thing you're trying to pose about Kazakhstan. China has one political party (technically they are still communist) and let's not forget about all those human rights abuses.

Oh and they just hosted the games 8 years ago.

The city has no prior bidding experience for a winter games.

China definitely has more issues than Kazahkstan :)

Just curious why people make such a big stinkin' fuss over China when they just hosted the Summer games!

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Beijing has hosted a freestyle skiing event (which they're good at), in the Olympic Stadium.

Beijing can hold a formidable bid without the need to build new indoor arenas. The legacy venues in Zhangjiakou will serve well for the Chinese. Someone mentioned that even Beijing would need to develop a higher slope for Men's Downhill as none currently exists.

China has a little less issues than Kazakhstan because it is indeed seen as an "insurance policy", but given what Almaty currently has, to not give them a shot is just wrong. They might not win the thing, but they should pose a good bid.

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I don't see how using China's somewhat lack of winter sporting hosting benefits Kazachkstan. Again, how much winter sport "hosting" did Sochi have, besides ZERO, before they were given the nod.

And yeah may not wanna "bother" with the dictator aspect, but the IOC, especially after Putin. And yeah, China is communist & blah blah blah, but it's fricken CHINA, for Pete's sake! That's like comparing Australia to Luxembourg, there's no comparison!

*you.. but the IOC will..

but given what Almaty currently has, to not give them a shot is just wrong. They might not win the thing, but they should pose a good bid.

I don't see how it's "wrong". All you want is merely another bid book to diddle with.

But with Lviv & if Oslo does indeed wind up bowing out, then the IOC would have to be more inclined to at least entertain their bid.

*but with Lviv now out..

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I'm not denying that Beijing has the Venues, because they do, well most of them. My argument against Beijing is

1) Human Rights issues.

2) Pollution levels.

3) Conflict with Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong, Macau and Japan.

3) Host recently in 2008.

4) Zhanjiakhou has never hosted a major event, maybe they should Bid for a Winter Universiade.

5) Communist Government.

6) Oslo is a winter powerhouse, and deserves the Games, as a solid, safe option.

7) Krakow offers a better Bid than Beijing aswell, with 'New Horizons and strong tourism destination, but I prefer Oslo.

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1. Yes, but those didn't matter for 2008. And if Oslo does withdraw, those won't matter for 2022 either. Besides, it's not like Kazahkstan is squeaky clean in that dept.

2. Again, the Chinese cleaned up everything for 2008. So they'll do it again if they have to for 2022.

3. Some people always like using these types of arguments for certain bids. They tried using them against Pyeongchang 2018 & Tokyo 2020 - "the Chinese or the Koreans will work against those bids etc" but in the end they really mean nothing.

3. (You have 3 twice BTW) it was for a summer games though. This is a winter bid.

4. Again, how many "major" events did Sochi host, besides NONE, before they got the nod.

5. Okay. But it's not like Kazahkstan is some form of democratic utopia. And besides, China "communist" government will make sure everything is done on time & without too much fuss. And that's what will matter to the IOC the most if all else fails.

6. No argument there. But what if Oslo withdraws, or worse yet, they continue with the bid but public support for it plummets to an all-time low & becomes another Stockholm 2004 bid. The IOC won't like that either.

7. That remains to be seen until we at least see their mini bid book.

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I don't see how using China's somewhat lack of winter sporting hosting benefits Kazachkstan. Again, how much winter sport "hosting" did Sochi have, besides ZERO, before they were given the nod.

And yeah may not wanna "bother" with the dictator aspect, but the IOC, especially after Putin. And yeah, China is communist & blah blah blah, but it's fricken CHINA, for Pete's sake! That's like comparing Australia to Luxembourg, there's no comparison!

*you.. but the IOC will..

You said the events Almaty hosted were minor league when Beijing and Zhangjiakou have hosted nothing i've heard of.

Yeah it's China, all those things that I mentioned were overlooked for 2008. Why? Because it was there first games! This will be there 2nd games in 14 years! Some of these things won't be overlooked this time.

5. Okay. But it's not like Kazahkstan is some form of democratic utopia. And besides, China "communist" government will make sure everything is done on time & without too much fuss. And that's what will matter to the IOC the most if all else fails.

6. No argument there. But what if Oslo withdraws, or worse yet, they continue with the bid but public support for it plummets to an all-time low & becomes another Stockholm 2004 bid. The IOC won't like that either.

7. That remains to be seen until we at least see their mini bid book.

You can't just say "China's communist government will make sure everything is done on time and without fuss" and then criticize Almaty and there government and how they will prepare for the games.

Yeah if Oslo withdraws or lacks public support then like what I have been saying all along the IOC "should" shortlist Almaty and Beijing/Zhangjiakou and even if Oslo gets the support then the 4 cities should all be shortlisted (of course discounting Lviv).

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You said the events Almaty hosted were minor league when Beijing and Zhangjiakou have hosted nothing i've heard of.

I only mention it cuz it's being overrated by some of you here. Kazahkstan isn't China nor Russia

Yeah it's China, all those things that I mentioned were overlooked for 2008. Why? Because it was there first games! This will be there 2nd games in 14 years! Some of these things won't be overlooked this time.

Yet again, I'm not saying that it's an ideal candidate. But if the last two worthwhile bids withdraw &/or can't prove themselves, then the IOC has no choice & can't "overlook" anything. Beggars can't be choosers.

You can't just say "China's communist government will make sure everything is done on time and without fuss" and then criticize Almaty and there government and how they will prepare for the games.

Why not. China has already proven themselves to the IOC. Kazahkstan is still very untested waters as far as they're concerned. Lets just finally agree to disagree. We're never going to agree on this, so just let it go already.

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I don't see how using China's somewhat lack of winter sporting hosting benefits Kazachkstan. Again, how much winter sport "hosting" did Sochi have, besides ZERO, before they were given the nod.

And yeah may not wanna "bother" with the dictator aspect, but the IOC, especially after Putin. And yeah, China is communist & blah blah blah, but it's fricken CHINA, for Pete's sake! That's like comparing Australia to Luxembourg, there's no comparison!

*you.. but the IOC will..

I don't see how it's "wrong". All you want is merely another bid book to diddle with.

But with Lviv & if Oslo does indeed wind up bowing out, then the IOC would have to be more inclined to at least entertain their bid.

*but with Lviv now out..

Well to be fair to Sochi, this was their 2nd serious bid attempt, after being denied the Candidate spot for the 2002 bid race. Not to mention Russia had some winter sports hosting experience elsewhere and it was bound to go to them eventually. I'm sure had Sochi failed 2014, it would have gone ahead with 2018, but with some of the proposed venues actually being built. It should also be noted with the case with Sochi, they were bound to select at least 1 of the ex-commie/Soviet states to make it a 3 way bid race instead of 2. They chose the one who could deliver and from the nation that was actually a winter sports powerhouse.

Beijing and Almaty should comfortably get a Candidate spot. If Beijing poses a good bid (we know what Almaty might look like, but Beijing is a bit iffy), then it will surely beat Almaty. Even with Oslo in the race, Almaty would still be in. I think that it would easily be a 4 Candidate race with Oslo, Krakow, Beijing and Almaty.

From: tominger

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LD,

Beijing will have to build almost all the indoor arenas.

How so? Surely they can modify their indoor arenas built for the 2008 Olympics. The sightlines might be terrible, but it would work. As for the speed skating oval, they can use the convention building built for the 2008 Olympics and do it like Torino.

Edited by Lord David
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Some don't consider a bid that doesn't make it to candidate stage to be "serious". Which I know has been a question of contention here with Oslo 2022 in case they withdraw. So as far as I'm concerned, only Sochi 2014 was the first "serious" attempt. Not to mention the 2002 attempt was 11 years prior, therefore any work from that attempt had long been scrapped & they had to start all over again for the 2014 bid campaign. And Russia having hosted some winter events "elsewhere" doesn't mean that it would've benefitted Sochi. That sounds a bit ridiculous really. Why not just go with the "elsewheres" that had then.

And I'm having trouble envisioning a 4-way race with Almaty in there. Especially when senior IOC officials are trying their darnedest to keep Oslo in, & when they're also talking about "revamping" the bid process. I don't think that they'd want to give the Norwegians even more cold feet than they already appear to have if they still see, as you say, a bid in there that "won't win anyway". Again, the only way I see Almaty being entertained, is if Oslo ends up withdrawing.

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I'm not denying that Beijing has the Venues, because they do, well most of them. My argument against Beijing is

1) Human Rights issues.

2) Pollution levels.

3) Conflict with Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong, Macau and Japan.

3) Host recently in 2008.

4) Zhanjiakhou has never hosted a major event, maybe they should Bid for a Winter Universiade.

5) Communist Government.

Not again the SAME arguments Tony. Especially when some of your points -Especially the political points- aren't exactly "obstacles". For being self declared as a young boy who reads politics, your lack of historical and legal notions is seriously flawed.

Once more time Tony: There's NO conflict between Macau, Hong Kong and China. Even China respects the economic, political and legal systems of these cities. China could have annexed these territories without the goodwill of Great Britain and Portugal but guess what? There's a policy called "one country, two systems" which both Hong Kong and Macau have proper autonomy. Even in some aspects, all the prior fears came behind and recently these territories have a sane and pragmatic relation with Beijing. Yes, there are issues that need to be solved, but called it "conflicts" is blindness. Again for Taiwan, read the UN resolution 2578 and then blame all the responsables for that legal blackout.

Also, albeit the political system in China is still a one-party socialist country, we can't define that country as a comunist, why? Because some legal and economic aspects are outside of the line of "comunist"

FYI responded excellent the other points. Sochi didn't need the Universiade, South Korea until Vancouver didn't have a lot of experience in Winter Olympics and still they won.

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And I tend to add that all the detractors of China, and saying that Kazakhstan is a "better" option, you need to check:

-Voted for "No" for the Act of protection of LGBT rights alongside countries like Uganda, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

-Considerated one of the 35 most corrupt countries alongside Russia

-A country with serious political problems and instability.

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China- Media censorship, internet censhorship. Only recently just removed the one child policy... dreadful environmental issues including air pollution in the city co-hosting the games. Then there is all the appauling human rights issues in China. Tibet for one, whole lot of issues there. China has the highest executions in the world (they have more executions than the whole entire world combined), 500 000 people in China are in detention without charge or trial (thanks amnesty international), arresting extremely high amounts of dissidents and keeping them imprisoned.

Ah good stuff.

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China is a nation of almost 1.4 BILLION people now. That's almost twice as many people as all of Europe! They have to maintain some type of order somehow. Plus, being the most populated nation on earth alone could justify their first WINTER hosting 14 years after their first SUMMER hosting.

Not saying it's right, & again, not saying it's ideal. But considering the alternatives if Oslo also decides to runway. & Krakow ends up not being able to convince, Beijing makes the next best sense. And as also been pointed out by Roger, it's not like uncompelling & untested Kazakstan is a bastion of Human Rights either. So what's the big deal. Cuz they never hosted? "Whoop dee doo"!

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Oh ok so because it's untested the IOC should ignore it. Just like how they will ignore South Africa because it is untested... not.

You say whoop dee doo over the fact they haven't hosted yet all i'm hearing is China 1.4 billion, China is big. It was compelling for them on their first bid but now it's just boring.

No i'm not saying Kazakhstan is angelic but China is riddled with issues and I believe they have more social/environmental/government/ issues then Kazakhstan.

And uncompelling? Bull crap. Beijing hosted 6 years ago now that is extremely boring for me. They don't deserve another games so soon. if Krakow and Oslo drop out then Almaty makes the next best sense.

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