Lord David Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Well yes that is true but Oslo and Stockholm haven't got government backing which is a bit silly. Blame the IOC for not putting in a clause which requires the government to accept and acknowledge the NOC's bid application prior to actually bidding. But both cities should remain in the bid race with government backing unless it wants to alienate the IOC should it want to bid for say 2026, government backing then or not. Good Point. Hopefully the Government backs it because Stockholm is a strong bid same with Oslo. Stockholm has a weak bid due to one core issue and several minor ones. You can claim the infrastructure is in Stockholm, but aside from general infrastructure, it lacks a speed skating oval (fine you propose to build one), sliding track (fine you don't expect every bidding city to already have one), ski jump (sure, you can be a bit apologetic to the region which invented the sport for not having one near or in the capital city Stockholm) and biathlon course (sure you propose one, but you don't fricken offer 4 sites to host the events of cross-country skiing and biathlon!). Oh and many have noted Stockholm's farce of a 2004 Summer Olympics bid (someone noted a huge NO-OLYMPICS with regards to Stockholm's 2004 bid). If that were taken into account and remembered by some IOC members, that will really give Stockholm a beating come the election (if they make the candidate stage). I just don't see Stockholm making the cut. And if it did, it would be a clear desperation (as stated before) on the IOC's part that they really want a Swedish Winter Olympics and are willing to overlook one major handicap just so they can get their first ever Swedish games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Stockholm has a weak bid due to one core issue and several minor ones. You can claim the infrastructure is in Stockholm, but aside from general infrastructure, it lacks a speed skating oval (fine you propose to build one), sliding track (fine you don't expect every bidding city to already have one), ski jump (sure, you can be a bit apologetic to the region which invented the sport for not having one near or in the capital city Stockholm) and biathlon course (sure you propose one, but you don't fricken offer 4 sites to host the events of cross-country skiing and biathlon!). Your "smarter" choice of Ostersund would have these issues as well, & MORE. At least Stockholm has everything else going for it to justify what little more would have to be build. And please, give me a fricken break. If you think that the world's media can still be served today by some high school like it did back in the winter of 1980, then Stockholm can easily do it, no problem. Oh and many have noted Stockholm's farce of a 2004 Summer Olympics bid (someone noted a huge NO-OLYMPICS with regards to Stockholm's 2004 bid). If that were taken into account and remembered by some IOC members, that will really give Stockholm a beating come the election (if they make the candidate stage). For starters, that bid was for a MUCH larger Summer Olympic Games. Perhaps if it was another summer bid it could be an issue, especially if the field is packed. But it's moot in this case, when there's a less than stellar 2022 applicant roster. And second, at least the Swedes didn't win & then throw the Winter Games back in the IOC's face, like some Colorado capital did, & yet many seem to think, including yourself, that doesn't impeded any future chances for them. Then neither does this for Stockholm Winter 2022. I just don't see Stockholm making the cut. And if it did, it would be a clear desperation (as stated before) on the IOC's part that they really want a Swedish Winter Olympics and are willing to overlook one major handicap just so they can get their first ever Swedish games. You mean like they were "desperate" to go to South America, with a spread-out, technically risky, four-cluster concept. Or South Korea, with it's "lack of passion for Winter Sports". Or Sochi, where they literally had to build EVERYTHING from scratch. Or China, no matter how politically risky it was & clean up a totally polluted city. Yeah, sounds like the IOC is always 'desperate' then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony E Loves Architecture Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 I honestly have no idea how some people can think Stockholm won't make the cut. The only reasonable opinion is Stockholm will finish runners up to Oslo. I personally favor Stockholm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord David Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Didn't you support non starter Lviv at the beginning? I've stated that Stockholm would only make the cut because the IOC is willing to throw the distance issue out the window (thus basically allowing anyone to bid regardless of distance as long as it's within that country's borders) and out of desperation for a Swedish Olympics. By allowing Stockholm through, expect to see a bunch of crazy bids from major cities in 2026, with supposed justifications that "hey, they let Stockholm through despite their proposal of events held far away, surely we can propose the same non compact concept too". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 I honestly have no idea how some people can think Stockholm won't make the cut. The only reasonable opinion is Stockholm will finish runners up to Oslo. I personally favor Stockholm. Bcuz they're looking at it with their silly, Almaty branded goggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony E Loves Architecture Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Didn't you support non starter Lviv at the beginning? When presented with new reliable information, you have every right to change your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanMUC Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 When presented with new reliable information, you have every right to change your mind. The info wasn't new, you just hadn't bothered to do "research" before starting to post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony E Loves Architecture Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Bcuz they're looking at it with their silly, Almaty branded goggles. Almaty wouldn't even be a threat to Stockholm and Oslo even if Asia didn't get past 2 Olympics. Stockholm VS Oslo as far as I am concerned. Almaty you will finish 3rd. Krakow 4th, Beijing 5th, Lviv 6th. The info wasn't new, you just hadn't bothered to do "research" before starting to post. True. When I done research, I stopped being naive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord David Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 For FYI. I honestly have no idea how some people can think Almaty won't make the cut. The only reasonable opinion is Almaty will finish runners up to Oslo. I personally favor Almaty. Almaty will make the cut but not win because of Sochi and the 3 consecutive Olympics in Asia. And don't go quoting Sochi having a lack of infrastructure yet still winning. A huge factor for Sochi's win after being essentially the 3rd strongest in the 2014 bid race (throwing essentially everything but the kitchen sink in it's application), was it's compelling Olympic Park approach, which hadn't been done in a Winter Olympics before. Almaty could have made it through if it had more in some categories and could have easily split the vote. Now that it has such conditions, I can easily see it making it through, especially when it has unconditional government support, whilst Oslo and Stockholm have so-so support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony E Loves Architecture Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 For FYI. Almaty will make the cut but not win because of Sochi and the 3 consecutive Olympics in Asia. And don't go quoting Sochi having a lack of infrastructure yet still winning. A huge factor for Sochi's win after being essentially the 3rd strongest in the 2014 bid race (throwing essentially everything but the kitchen sink in it's application), was it's compelling Olympic Park approach, which hadn't been done in a Winter Olympics before. Almaty could have made it through if it had more in some categories and could have easily split the vote. Now that it has such conditions, I can easily see it making it through, especially when it has unconditional government support, whilst Oslo and Stockholm have so-so su What happened to my post. I meant Stockholm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 By allowing Stockholm through, expect to see a bunch of crazy bids from major cities in 2026, with supposed justifications that "hey, they let Stockholm through despite their proposal of events held far away, surely we can propose the same non compact concept too". The IOC makes those exceptions on a case-by-case basis. They don't owe anyone anything if they don't feel like it. Especially if there's other more reliable, credible options on the table at any given time that they'd rather go with instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony E Loves Architecture Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 @Lord David. Why when you Quoted my comment did you also edit my comment. If you look back where it said Almaty on yours it said Stockholm on mine. I am supporting Stockholm, not Almaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 For FYI. Almaty will make the cut but not win because of Sochi and the 3 consecutive Olympics in Asia. And don't go quoting Sochi having a lack of infrastructure yet still winning. A huge factor for Sochi's win after being essentially the 3rd strongest in the 2014 bid race (throwing essentially everything but the kitchen sink in it's application), was it's compelling Olympic Park approach, which hadn't been done in a Winter Olympics before.. I'm not arguing Sochi's budget. But what other factors did Sochi having going for it, too? Russia, being the Winter Sports power that it is, never hosted a Winter Olympics before. It was time. They also were up against a new comer of PyeongChang, & Salzburg's more practical approach. Not to mention that Austria had already hosted twice before. Sochi's endless cash flow was the added incentive, which it needed to finally convince the IOC to give it to them. Plus, I'm sure the IOC felt enough confidence in the Russians to deliver. Is Kazahkstan going to throw everything but the kitchen sink at it? Even if they did, but I don't think that they will, not when the IOC is seeing the actual headaches of allowing a bid like Sochi's to skyrocket, I don't believe that they will have the same type of confidence with the Kazahks like they did with the Russians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord David Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 @Lord David. Why when you Quoted my comment did you also edit my comment. If you look back where it said Almaty on yours it said Stockholm on mine. I am supporting Stockholm, not Almaty. That was directed for FYI, who thinks that Almaty will not make the shortlist simply due to the iffiness of the region, a controversial government and the possibility of 3 consecutive Olympics in Asia. But you can't not let them through if they have all or most of the necessary conditions to host. You simply deny them at the election if you don't want to see another Asian games. If you let Beijing through due to political reasons, then why deny Almaty a spot. Make it a 4 candidate race if you want another Euro bidder. Heck even make it 5 cities making the cut and having clear non starter Lviv as the only one which doesn't make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony E Loves Architecture Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 That was directed for FYI, who thinks that Almaty will not make the shortlist simply due to the iffiness of the region, a controversial government and the possibility of 3 consecutive Olympics in Asia. But you can't not let them through if they have all or most of the necessary conditions to host. You simply deny them at the election if you don't want to see another Asian games. If you let Beijing through due to political reasons, then why deny Almaty a spot. Make it a 4 candidate race if you want another Euro bidder. Heck even make it 5 cities making the cut and having clear non starter Lviv as the only one which doesn't make it. The IOC would never eliminate just 1 city. Plus Almaty will make it through to Candidate but won't win. If Pyeongchang didn't get 2018 but Tokyo still got 2020 then Almaty might have a small chance but not a 3rd Asian Olympics plus front runners Stockholm and Oslo. If 2 get eliminated then Lviv and Beijing should go. If 3 then Lviv, Beijing and Krakow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Almaty wouldn't even be a threat to Stockholm and Oslo even if Asia didn't get past 2 Olympics. Stockholm VS Oslo as far as I am concerned. Almaty you will finish 3rd. Krakow 4th, Beijing 5th, Lviv 6th. Will have to change that around a bit for you: Swap Almaty & Beijing. Bcuz Lviv & Almaty aren't going to Kuala Lumpur. That was directed for FYI, who thinks that Almaty will not make the shortlist simply due to the iffiness of the region, a controversial government and the possibility of 3 consecutive Olympics in Asia. Some of those are what kept Doha off twice. And before you say it was "the calender issue" (like some other lost soul around here also does), IOC Executive Director said that it was in fact more than just the proposed October dates that kept Doha off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord David Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Is Kazahkstan going to throw everything but the kitchen sink at it? Even if they did, but I don't think that they will, not when the IOC is seeing the actual headaches of allowing a bid like Sochi's to skyrocket, I don't believe that they will have the same type of confidence with the Kazahks like they did with the Russians. I was referring to Sochi's applicant book with regards to that "kitchen sink" remark. They proposed to upgrade the existing Central Stadium for ceremonies and some indoor venues were at legacy locations rather than that Olympic Park proposal which was offered in the candidate book. I'm sure that that unique concept was a clincher for Sochi much like the idea of rejuvenating London's East was for the 2012 Olympics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony E Loves Architecture Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Will have to change that around a bit for you: Swap Almaty & Beijing. Bcuz Lviv & Almaty aren't going to Kuala Lumpur. Some of those are what kept Doha off twice. And before you say it was "the calender issue" (like some other lost soul around here also does), IOC Executive Director said that it was in fact more than just the proposed October dates that kept Doha off. @FYI, honestly most of the time I agree with you, but this time you are wrong. Almaty will go to Kuala Lumpur. They won't win, but they will go through. Beijing is too near to 2008, Lviv is weak and Krakow is joint country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord David Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Some of those are what kept Doha off twice. And before you say it was "the calender issue" (like some other lost soul around here also does), IOC Executive Director said that it was in fact more than just the proposed October dates that kept Doha off. I was referring to a Southern Hemisphere Winter Olympics with regards to that. It'll never happen anytime soon of course, but we'll have to see if any city from here makes a bid. Was it the weather issue for Doha? Fine. But denying them because they didn't want to host within the traditional Olympic time frame is a good excuse as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 I was referring to Sochi's applicant book with regards to that "kitchen sink" remark. They proposed to upgrade the existing Central Stadium for ceremonies and some indoor venues were at legacy locations rather than that Olympic Park proposal which was offered in the candidate book. I'm sure that that unique concept was a clincher for Sochi much like the idea of rejuvenating London's East was for the 2012 Olympics. I know you were referring to Sochi with that remark. I was merely saying is Almaty going to do the same. I don't think that they are, though. And even if they did, I don't see the IOC having the same amount of confidence with them like they did with the Russians. If Erdogan made the IOC nervous, then I don't see much hope for Almaty in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony E Loves Architecture Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Even the Middle East has to follow the time frames. Good Job IOC. Doha won't buy there way to this like they did with Fifa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 @FYI, honestly most of the time I agree with you, but this time you are wrong. Almaty will go to Kuala Lumpur. They won't win, but they will go through. Beijing is too near to 2008, Lviv is weak and Krakow is joint country. You don't know enough or have been here nearly long enough to tell me that I am "wrong". Geopolitcally speaking, the Chinese will make candidate cuz it's China. It's a huge market for the IOC to just diss. Like I've said countless times, Beijing 2022 is merely an insurance policy in the event Oslo AND Stockholm back out due to lack of government backing. Just like you were wrong Lviv a few days ago, you will find out a few days from now that you're also "wrong" about Almaty. Go do some more "research", please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord David Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 If Bach is really wanting to shape up Olympic bidding, I wouldn't be surprised if 5 cities make the cut, where Lviv the weakest of all is cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony E Loves Architecture Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 You don't know enough or have been here nearly long enough to tell me that I am "wrong". Geopolitcally speaking, the Chinese will make candidate cuz it's China. It's a huge market for the IOC to just diss. Like I've said countless times, Beijing 2022 is merely an insurance policy in the event Oslo AND Stockholm back out due to lack of government backing. Just like you were wrong Lviv a few days ago, you will find out a few days from now that you're also "wrong" about Almaty. Go do some more "research", please. It's opinion. Beijing might get into Candidate by only beating Krakow, Not Almaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 It's opinion. Beijing might get into Candidate by only beating Krakow, Not Almaty. Tell that to Baron. He'll tell you no. And if that's your 'opinion', its not a very well, thought out one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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