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breathesgelatin

Lviv 2022

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Direct opponents? I'm not part if the Munich bid team, and probably Markus isn't part of a not yet existing Stockholm bid. Once again you are overestimating statements made on here and take them as part of particular bid campaigns. Would you have liked his initial statement better if it had come from someone in Italy, that's not involved in 2022? Still would mean the same thing in my view.

But to each their own, indeed.

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I would be interested in having Ukrainian testimonies, or people supporting Lviv from neighboring countries to know something : What is the city going to put forward to beat favorite Munich ? i know Munich's not officially bidding yet etc etc....But everyone knows that if they do, they'll win.

Lviv is one of those fast growing, moving city of eastern/central Europe with an extremely rich past and culture. With its history, at the vey heart of several former empires of Europe, the city's probably one with some of the most diverse cultural and historical influences, having belonged to Austria, Poland, Russia...Not to mention the extraordinary amount of personalities from Lviv, amazing for a city of this size. As for the technical elements Lviv comes from behind but we know that when there's money , there's a way, -to modify the idiom- and Ukraine has it.

Now, there's the success of the Euro 2012, which Lviv was even part of. I'm sure Mr Bubka too, with his aura and influence (which I'm not overestimating, but that still exists) can definitely play a role to help boost Lviv. That all shows Lviv is not completely weaponless and I think making the shortlist is possible. But what else can Lviv count on to and boast that Munich couldn't? That's what I wonder. Of course, if ukranians is too rare a commodity, I'm curious for anyone's opinion. ^_^

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I know SirRols, but there's a difference between saying a city doesn't believe 100% in its chance to win, and completely discredit an opponent bid saying they're bidding just to "promote themselves as a destination". Once more, I'm neutral, but this is very unfair to the Ukrainians, and I honestly think it's not true. "They" aren't a real bid, and "we" are. This is what is implied in such a comment.

That's just my opinion and I think there are better ways to promote your own bid. I'm from the so-called Western world too, but I think a lot of westerners (for some reason, lots of them coming from northern Europe, not just on GB) should be careful of this outdated and backward feeling of superiority that sparks in their statements. Especially towards Eastern Europe, Africa, South America or Asia. Western cities who've made that mistake in the past regretted it very soon after, anyway.

Markun made his assessment of the rational intention for the ukrainian bid. Here's the concept, you can disagree with that assessment without looking at his point of view as critical or unfair. He's assuming that the ukrainians made a rational and smart decision. Maybe he's wrong, I wouldn't know, but I don't think there's necessarily any disrespect. That requires that his point of view is based on weird prejudices of Ukraine, which there is nothing at all to suggest.

Good job on *not making sweeping generalizations about northern europe* while trying to defend one part of the world from the same kind of perceived judgment, and at the same time *not making it* geo-political.

I believe any bid no matter where it comes from deserves (from a respectful point of view) to be analyzed as rationally and perhaps critically as possible, and politics and geography is unfortunately one component of that analytic framework. I don't understand how one can disagree with that.

Too many times, judgments of bids seem to depend on how "fresh" or "exciting" they seem to be, based on which ever emotional state the individual is in at that point in time, and which ever information flow the subject has taken part of at that point in time. I just don't believe such an approach is very congruent with a decision process that leads to the most suitable, actual host of the olympics, which surely is why we judge bids? Or is the bid process itself just as exciting and important?

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That debate was closed long ago, once more I never denied the implication of politics, you aren't getting my point, so just read my posts one -or more- time(s) and you may get it, as I'm not going to explain myself one more time.

Back to Lviv ! Thinking about it, I believe the 2 main elements they could boast compared to rivals are:

1- Ukraine never hosted any WOG

2- They can show a bigger popular support than them and a stronger amount of population supporting their bid.

That, on top of the residual tips and help that S.Bubka can bring to Lviv, and other things I mentioned in the previous post. I would have no problem with Games being held in Munich or Oslo, as both would do a great job especially Munich (Stockholm would be the worst likelihood..) but I think those are points that can help Lviv.

At first one could easily look at it as the minor, poor little Lviv that has no chance, but looking closer, a certain number of assets make this bid more interesting than it seems....

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There's too many cons than pros for the Lviv bid. For starters, the western part of the country is far less developed than the Eastern part, & I hardly doubt that they'll be willing &/or able to spend even a fraction of what the Russians have for Sochi.

And while popular support & never having hosted are good attributes, they're not everything. Look at Madrid & Istanbul. The Spanish bid had the most popular support than any of the 2020 bids & Turkey never hosted. But neither benefitted from such points.

And I wouldn't read too much into what Bubka could do. He didn't even do well in the IOC presidential election. If even JAS Jr., supposedly a very prominent Spanish IOC member that was also part of the Executive Board, couldn't deliver the goods for Madrid, then what little more could Lviv expect, besides not much.

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I think the biggest con really is the complete lack of infrastructure and hosting experience when it comes to winter sports events.

Of course this was also true for Sochi and PC in their first bid. But Sochi had Putin, which obviously made all the difference, and PC took a strategy of building experience until they finally succeded. In that sense, maybe Lviv will one day host, but surely not in 2022.

If instead of Lviv, it had been Ljubljana for example, from a country which never hosted but with strong hosting experience, it would have been a different story. But that's just an example, no idea if things like vertical drop and of course public support would ever make it possible for Slovenia to consider bidding.

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Can't see how they hope to succeed their mountains are about 400m too low

According to http://lviv.travel/ua/index/2022olympics/2022venues (only Ukrainian version available):

Polonyna Borzhava meets the requirements of the International Ski Federation on slopes height. The area is planned to be developed for Alpine sking center, even if the bid would be dropped.

It looks, that they've already consulted the whole thing with FIS.

What's really astonishes me in the whole Lviv bid is the Tysovets Snow Cluster. Why didn't they go with Bukovel?

I know that there are already ski jumping hills and biathlon venues in Tysovets, but it's just a village in the middle of nowhere, with only 157 inhabitants.

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So since this is the Lviv thread, I guess it's appropriate to announce that the city has formally declared its intent to bid.

The GB article seems to suggest that it's a 1 billion usd project.

AP says otherwise, that is, a 10 billion usd price tag.

So I guess **** happens when you're an internet journo:-) , or just a volunteer, but they're of course excused given the excellent site we're getting. However since it's a more than minor difference, people should be aware anyways:-)

I haven't actually looked up a ton of sources, so if GB turns out to be right, then sorry about that.

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If Lviv wants to host the Winter Olympics, they have to take the South Korean approach and look at this as long term goal. I don't see them being as successful as the Koreans, though - likely to be cut before the Candidate Phase. A number of reasons...lack of experience, weak infrastructure, a heavy investment requirement, too many competitors, and limited Winter Olympic heritage/might. As an independent country, Ukraine has only participated in 5 Winter Olympics (1994-2010) and they have only won 5 medals - only one of those gold and not one of them from the two recent Games hosted in North America. They've got their work cut out for them.

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Well, it has the 'Nazi' imprint. The study is prepared by the son of Hitler's star architect, Albert Speer. ;)

;)

Two nice reads about Albert Speer Jr. and his past:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/348858/albert_speer_jr_emerges_from_nazi_fathers_shadow/

"Albert Speer Jr emerges from Nazi father’s shadow; As the son of one of Hitler’s closest aides who spent much of his childhood at the dictator’s mountain retreat, Albert Speer knows more than most Germans what it is like to live in the shadow of the country’s Nazi past."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/aug/07/olympics2008.architecture

"Albert Speer's son helped design the architecture of the Beijing games. But the similarities with Berlin 1936 don't end there"

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I think the biggest con really is the complete lack of infrastructure and hosting experience when it comes to winter sports events.

Of course this was also true for Sochi and PC in their first bid. But Sochi had Putin, which obviously made all the difference, and PC took a strategy of building experience until they finally succeded. In that sense, maybe Lviv will one day host, but surely not in 2022.

If instead of Lviv, it had been Ljubljana for example, from a country which never hosted but with strong hosting experience, it would have been a different story. But that's just an example, no idea if things like vertical drop and of course public support would ever make it possible for Slovenia to consider bidding.

Sochi was an anomaly. They attempted to bid for 1998 and 2002 when the supposed still soviet St. Petersburg (or Leningrad) was trying to get the 1996 Winter Olympics (which of course became the 1994 games).

Sochi wasn't so much riding on the power of Putin as it was riding on a number of factors including government financial guarantees, the loss of Moscow in the 2012 Olympic bid race, the fact that they simply had to get their foot in the door (the whole idea of throwing everything but the kitchen sink in their applicant book, only to revise the Olympic Park plan by having all ice events and other facilities based there in their Candidate books) and a number of minor factors were key to Sochi's success in getting the games.

I believe that the uniqueness of having a dedicated Olympic Park (arguably the first in Winter Olympics history not counting for minor Olympic Parks like in Calgary) where ceremonies and ice sports are within reach of each other were the contributing factors to Sochi getting the 2014 Olympics. Especially since the competitors were merely Salzburg and PyeongChang, the 2 repeat bidders from 2010. Salzburg offered more compactness, whilst PyeongChang was hoping that infrastructure built since their 2010 would help them. They both failed on the economic powerhouse, uniqueness and the IOC's tendencies to wanting lasting expensive legacies on host cities. Sochi is that.

Now to Lviv. Too soon after Sochi anyways, but if they are going to try and get that all important Candidacy, then they gotta put all their strengths forward. There's the existing slopes. The 2012 Euro stadium would serve ceremonies etc. Simply offering a Sochi approach might not work anymore.

Edited by Lord David

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Ukraine certainly will differentiate their message from Sochi as much as they possibly can and Lviv is, of course, completely different from Sochi city-wise. As far as the Winter Olympics are concerned, an 8-year gap between two games in the same region/neighboring countries is a negotiable business and happened at least twice in recent memory: Lake Placid 1980 <> Calgary 1988 and Salt Lake 2002 <> Vancouver 2010.

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I would hardly call a distance equivalent to London to Moscow (Lake Placid to Calgary), & Paris to Budapest (Salt Lake City to Vancouver) as the "same region/neighboring countries". Lviv to Sochi is less than 800 miles by comparison. Much less than those two examples.

Lets also keep in perspective as to why we only had an eight year gap between those two sets of North American Winter Olympic Games. Lake Placid got 1980 by default to begin with. Calgary 1988 was already a strong bid from a country that had never hosted the Winter Games before but had tried to get them several times before, including twice with Calgary, & was competing with only Cortina d'Ampezzo (which had already hosted) & newbie Falun. And PyeongChang nearly got 2010 despite Vancouver being the slight favorite for that race anyway.

And with three consecutive Winter Olympic Games already being away from "traditional" Europe (& that's only happened once before, & it's including the Lake Placid 1980 default win), this only all but helps Scandinavia's 2022 chances here. Especially when you have senior IOC officials expressing their disappointment over Munich's & St Moritz's exits. Not to mention how much untested waters the Ukraine really is, especially when they would have so much work to do. And unlike the Russians, they're not gonna have the endless amounts of cash (& Putin) at their disposal to try & make this happen. And with even all of the resources that Russia is throwing at Sochi 2014, there are still concerns. So no, I don't see Lviv at the very least for another couple of cycles. Their approach has to be a long strategy one, much like PyeongChang's was. Then maybe it would be the next Eastern European Winter Olympic go-around.

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Ukraine certainly will differentiate their message from Sochi as much as they possibly can and Lviv is, of course, completely different from Sochi city-wise. As far as the Winter Olympics are concerned, an 8-year gap between two games in the same region/neighboring countries is a negotiable business and happened at least twice in recent memory: Lake Placid 1980 <> Calgary 1988 and Salt Lake 2002 <> Vancouver 2010.

Because North America only has two countries capable of hosting. Europe has more then that.

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Fair. But Ukraine can't be dismissed simply because some audiences would consider it too Russian shortly after Sochi. We've seen that kind of line being used time and again as a deterrent of a Tokyo games following Pyeongchang.

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But Tokyo following Pyeongchang is a far safer bet for the IOC than Lviv following not long after Sochi. A really compelling safe bid from somewhere like Sochi would be on safer ground but for Lviv it's just another thing that goes against it.

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Lviv isn't being "dismissed by some audiences because 'it's too Russian' ", but what mainly what works against them is that it's geopolitically, relatively too soon for a region that's not as traditional in much untested waters. Especially when there's much better, traditional safer options on the 2022 table. Even Krakow has an edge here over Lviv, & that ain't saying much, especially when they're proposing some events in Slovakia. The Tokyo/PyeongChang comparison is so way off base here, too. Apples & oranges, to say the least. Lviv is far from being a Tokyo. If anything, Oslo is more like the Tokyo in this race.

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Fair. But Ukraine can't be dismissed simply because some audiences would consider it too Russian shortly after Sochi. We've seen that kind of line being used time and again as a deterrent of a Tokyo games following Pyeongchang.

For one I am not. There is other European candidates that are more viable.

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Does anyone seriously believe that Lviv is in with a chance? This must be the biggest outsider of a race of outsiders (& Oslo). I'd be very surprised if they even made the short list, it's just way too early for them.

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I don't see Lviv making it to the Candidate phase. Like Rio and Pyeongchang, they will likely need a few rounds of bidding before they can convince the IOC that it is their turn.

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