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Beijing/Zhangjiakou 2022


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Every successful bid happens because there are favorable circumstance for that bid.

Not necessarily. Did London have an easy time going up against Paris? Ditto for Sydney 2000. Sure, we've seen just as many where it set up nicely for a bidder, but that's not always the case. Some bid cities have seriously had to earn it up against less than favorable circumstances.

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I am another for Almaty.... just for the excitement of a new frontier.

That doesn't mean I think it will happen, but lets be honest there has been some pretty strange machinations happening around bids the last couple of years- anything can happen in the lead up to the vote- loss of popular support, lack of governemnt support, public unrest and violence, human rights concerns, sponsor concerns, economic meltdowns etc....

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Anyone else kind of pulling for Almaty now, just cause many of us are so blatantly writing then off?

You mean how just as many are so blatantly writing off Oslo &/or Beijing (for whatever their reasons). I don't think it's as lop-sided as you're trying to paint it. All three 2022 bids get their fair share of criticisism around here.

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I'm officially jumping on the Almaty bandwagon.

Because in the past, that was OK. Then something happend, and it wasn't OK.

What exactly happened, and when?

The United States invaded Iraq in search of non-existent weapons of mass-destruction in an ill-conceived attempt to avenge 9/11, despite the fact that almost the entire international community opposed the action. The US became seen as a rogue, out-of-control superpower that needed to be put in its place.

Add to that the fact that Atlanta hosted the shoddiest Olympics in recent memory and that Salt Lake City played dirty to win 2002 and nobody in the IOC wanted to touch the US with a 10-foot pole.

Instead of the land of the free and home of the brave, the US looked like a might-is-right bully without a sense of right and wrong. That bully was also clearly vulnerable to attack.

In the meantime, the global economic picture changed. The US frittered TRILLIONS away on a fruitless war and then found itself caught off guard by the housing crisis and major economic downturn of 2008. Instead of being king of the hill, the US appeared very vulnerable and the rest if the world realized they had a chance to alter the global balance of power -- particularly the BRICS.

Simultaneously, the IOC woke up to the fact that for a global event they had spent way too much time in North America and other traditional locales.

The last few decades have seen a very strong reaction against the US on the part of the international community as well as an awakening to the reality that there is an increasingly global economy and global culture that allows many smaller parties more influence than they enjoyed in the past. The IOC wants to encourage that diversity.

That's why it is highly unlikely that the US will ever host two Olympics close together.

Or did you miss those events?

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You mean how just as many are so blatantly writing off Oslo &/or Beijing (for whatever their reasons). I don't think it's as lop-sided as you're trying to paint it. All three 2022 bids get their fair share of criticisism around here.

I don't know if I agree with that. I think that there is a general consensus here that Almaty is more or less a non-starter. We all recognize that Oslo and Beijing are capable of winning.

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Because in the past, that was OK. Then something happend, and it wasn't OK.

What exactly happened, and when?

American foreign policy in the 2000's. But that should be a debate for the USA thread.

Me! I can't think of a bitter reason to pick one over the other. Be kinda fun to see Tony's head (figuratively) explode.

I'll give you one. A Chinese winter Olympics was inevitable. A country with lots of mountains and a population over a billion is going to be given the winter games eventually. If it isn't 2022 it will happen some other cycle. There's too many people and too much money for the IOC to stay away from China forever.

But a Kazakh winter games can be postponed as long as possible.

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  • 3 weeks later...

So do I Almaty Kazakhstan would spend that much on there 4 ceremonies the government will spend big on the ceremonies like China too.

Rubbish. ALMATY IS NOT HOSTING.

Looks like Beijing 2022 is going to happen.

I am another for Almaty.... just for the excitement of a new frontier.

That doesn't mean I think it will happen, but lets be honest there has been some pretty strange machinations happening around bids the last couple of years- anything can happen in the lead up to the vote- loss of popular support, lack of governemnt support, public unrest and violence, human rights concerns, sponsor concerns, economic meltdowns etc....

Almaty is a dictatorship aswell. At least Beijing can deliver.

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Anyone who would take Jacques Rogge's lip-service as sacred is totally & completely naive. This is the man that was said Havana "has a good chance" to host the Olympics like anyone else.

What else would one expect the man to say when he's got a microphone shoved in his face. "These Asian winter games suck. The host country clearly doesn't know what they're doing". I remember some people going on & on how the IOC just "loved" the 2006 Asian games & thy would make Doha a frontrunner for the Olympics. And yet the IOC gave Doha the old heave-ho not once, but TWICE already. So suggestion, don't believe everything that you hear. Especially when it comes from a man like Rogge.

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I'd rather have the Winter Olympics in Borat country than another penis-measuring contest in China, Russia, or the USA. But I wouldn't be surprised if the IOC one day decides to hold all the Summer, Winter, and Youth Olympics in only those three countries and only lets those countries compete.

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Isn't it only 4 games?

Yes. That was a typo. Sorry. Lake Placid, LA, Atlanta, Salt Lake.

I'd rather have the Winter Olympics in Borat country than another penis-measuring contest in China, Russia, or the USA. But I wouldn't be surprised if the IOC one day decides to hold all the Summer, Winter, and Youth Olympics in only those three countries and only lets those countries compete.

Except that the ONLY reason Almaty is bidding is because they want to show off their schlong.

I actually think American Games have really been about our love for sport. I don't think the US has ever used the Games to puff itself up the way that China and Russia have.

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I am not sure Beijing 2022 would be a repeat of Beijing 2008 though. In many, many ways I actually think the Chinese might be kicking themselves for getting straddled with 2022 when every indication was they truly desired Shanghai 2028 or 2032. China has no need to show itself off in the way it needed to in 2008. I am sure Beijing will heed the IOC's request for restraint. It could be favourable for them in the future.

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You can't really compare Beijing's successful Bid for the 2008 Summer Olympics and Paralympics and Rio De Janeiro's successful Bid for the 2016 Summer Olympics and Paralympics, with an unrealistic, weak Almaty 2022 Winter Olympics and Paralympics Bid.

Beijing might not have had the Highest Score, but they Won because it was China's first Olympics. China is the most populated Country in the World and have a Strong Economy. Rio De Janeiro offered to take the Olympics to a New Continent, with South America. Almaty hasn't got any of that to offer. The Almaty 2022 Bid is finished. No one (Except GCL and Olympic Fan Darcy) wants an Almaty 2022 Winter Olympics and Paralympics. The IOC doesn't want it, most of us don't want it and some of the Almaty Public doesn't want it.

I could name a few more people here that want them in Almaty now...just saying...

Why? Almaty has nothing Good to offer. It's supported by People who cannot see reality. Beijing is a much more secure option over Almaty.

Tony why are you trying to convert people and insult their view points? Beijing may be a little more secure, but if Hong Kong ends violently, Almaty will look a lot more appealing in my opinion.

No you are clueless for failing to recognize that the 80's were another era. The US hosted five Olympic Games between 1980 and 2002. That was a gross anomaly and will not happen again. It is foolhardy to expect that it will.

Well the 80's and the present don't look too far apart at this point do they? This is the first two horse race since '84.

Every successful bid happens because there are favorable circumstance for that bid.

Can I put this in my signature?

Anyone else kind of pulling for Almaty now, just cause many of us are so blatantly writing then off?

Me. I'm jumping on it for the same reason I jumped on the LA 2024 bandwagon...I wanna see Tony freak.

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I don't know if I agree with that. I think that there is a general consensus here that Almaty is more or less a non-starter. We all recognize that Oslo and Beijing are capable of winning.

Exactly, but who doesn't like an underdog?

I'll give you one. A Chinese winter Olympics was inevitable. A country with lots of mountains and a population over a billion is going to be given the winter games eventually. If it isn't 2022 it will happen some other cycle. There's too many people and too much money for the IOC to stay away from China forever.

But a Kazakh winter games can be postponed as long as possible.

I agree with all of this, but this just is not the best time for China to host. We all know they are gonna go out for this one and the IOC can not afford that. If China cracks the whip then that will also be bad for the IOC. Essentially this is the worst time for the IOC to go back to China.

I want $500 million Ceremonies!!!

surprise,

How is that so, when you keep driveling on that Almaty would be "fiscally conservative games". :-/

They should spend no more than $500 (hundred) on the ceremonies then if they're really gonna be fiscally "conservative"! :-P

Or just pull an Atlanta and only spend a billion in total.

Rubbish. ALMATY IS NOT HOSTING.

Looks like Beijing 2022 is going to happen.

Almaty is a dictatorship aswell. At least Beijing can deliver.

Tony you are totally right, Beijing can deliever a more extravagant, over budget, self glorifying, resource wasting, reputation ruining games then Almaty.

surprise...

Yes. That was a typo. Sorry. Lake Placid, LA, Atlanta, Salt Lake.

Except that the ONLY reason Almaty is bidding is because they want to show off their schlong.

I actually think American Games have really been about our love for sport. I don't think the US has ever used the Games to puff itself up the way that China and Russia have.

I actually really agree with this. The only games I would say involved a bit of ego was LA '84. Coming of the heels of Moscow and with Reagan in the house I think we wanted to showcase ourselves. However, we did it in a different way. We showcased how we could host the games responsibly when it came to finances, we did not have to spend billions to over compensate.

I am not sure Beijing 2022 would be a repeat of Beijing 2008 though. In many, many ways I actually think the Chinese might be kicking themselves for getting straddled with 2022 when every indication was they truly desired Shanghai 2028 or 2032. China has no need to show itself off in the way it needed to in 2008. I am sure Beijing will heed the IOC's request for restraint. It could be favourable for them in the future.

Take Nanjing for example which was way overdone, it was comparable to the main games. Now try and tell me China will not go all out on their FIRST winter games...

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I agree with all of this, but this just is not the best time for China to host. We all know they are gonna go out for this one and the IOC can not afford that. If China cracks the whip then that will also be bad for the IOC. Essentially this is the worst time for the IOC to go back to China.

This is hyperbolic, cuz the same, if not moreso, can be said of Kazahkstan. It's has all the perfect ingredients for political instability if the right circumstances were to arise. In that sense, China is the most sensible option & Kazakstan would be a big gamble. Not to mention that the "perception" to Sochi (fair or not) would be made far more with Almaty than it would be with Beijing. By the time the 2022 vote comes around, Hong Kong will be long behind in the rear-view mirror.

Take Nanjing for example which was way overdone, it was comparable to the main games. Now try and tell me China will not go all out on their FIRST winter games...

And how do you exactly know that Kazahkstan wouldn't go all out on their very "first" Games, period. You really think that they're in this so they can be all "conservative". C'mon now. Not to mention the virtual corruption that would likely follow.

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I am not sure Beijing 2022 would be a repeat of Beijing 2008 though. In many, many ways I actually think the Chinese might be kicking themselves for getting straddled with 2022 when every indication was they truly desired Shanghai 2028 or 2032. China has no need to show itself off in the way it needed to in 2008. I am sure Beijing will heed the IOC's request for restraint. It could be favourable for them in the future.

Shanghai 2028/32 could still happen- even with Beijing 2022.

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Bernham:

You weren't alive for 1984. You have NO grounds for saying they "involved a bit of ego." You're just assuming that because it was during the Cold War. LA just really wanted to host. They had bid multiple times previously and lost. When they finally got the Games, no one else wanted them. They were not seen as any kind of a windfall or point of pride, but rather an albatross that the rest of the world wanted to avoid. So no, LA84 was not about ego, it was about hosting a great sport festival. If LA cared about ego and international respect, they wouldn't have bid.

And NO, the present looks NOTHING like the 80s. Just because the IOC has alienated all but two bidders and is doing a bang up job of shooting themselves in the foot with their present PR campaign, that doesn't mean the world remains unchanged. The US is not going to waltz away with four Olympics in a 22-year period. That's just ridiculous. Only a child with no grasp of history would argue that 2014 looks like the 80s.

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Shanghai 2028/32 could still happen- even with Beijing 2022.

No chance. Not unless they fell into a race like 2022 where virtually no one else was interesting. If the IOC had their druthers (which they don't), they're probably going to shy away from Asia for a while, if they have bidders from other parts of the world who are interested. I can't see a situation like with the United States in the late 20th century where China would wind up with 3 Olympics (including 2 Summer Olympics) within a span of 20-24 years. The only way that's even a remote possibility would be for Shanghai to enter a race that doesn't include any or all of an African bid, a North American bid, or a European bid, depending on what happens with 2024.

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This is hyperbolic, cuz the same, if not moreso, can be said of Kazahkstan. It's has all the perfect ingredients for political instability if the right circumstances were to arise. In that sense, China is the most sensible option & Kazakstan would be a big gamble. Not to mention that the "perception" to Sochi (fair or not) would be made far more with Almaty than it would be with Beijing. By the time the 2022 vote comes around, Hong Kong will be long behind in the rear-view mirror.

And how do you exactly know that Kazahkstan wouldn't go all out on their very "first" Games, period. You really think that they're in this so they can be all "conservative". C'mon now. Not to mention the virtual corruption that would likely follow.

I'm not saying Kazakhstan will not be a humble games, but until someone here can tell me exactly how they will be more blown out of proportions then Beijing will be then I am going to say Almaty will be cheaper. Beijing has a lot more opportunities to let costs balloon given how many venues they have to build. Almaty not so much.

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Bernham:

You weren't alive for 1984. You have NO grounds for saying they "involved a bit of ego." You're just assuming that because it was during the Cold War. LA just really wanted to host. They had bid multiple times previously and lost. When they finally got the Games, no one else wanted them. They were not seen as any kind of a windfall or point of pride, but rather an albatross that the rest of the world wanted to avoid. So no, LA84 was not about ego, it was about hosting a great sport festival. If LA cared about ego and international respect, they wouldn't have bid.

And NO, the present looks NOTHING like the 80s. Just because the IOC has alienated all but two bidders and is doing a bang up job of shooting themselves in the foot with their present PR campaign, that doesn't mean the world remains unchanged. The US is not going to waltz away with four Olympics in a 22-year period. That's just ridiculous. Only a child with no grasp of history would argue that 2014 looks like the 80s.

You're right, what I should have said was that LA'84 was not about upstaging the Russians, but hosting a games that were responsible, showcased the best America had to offer, and in a greater sense show that the US does not need to build flashy facilities, host grandiose ceremonies, and upstage other cities to leave a mark on the Olympic Movement and sporting world.

I am not saying that the world as a whole looks like the 80's, but that Olympic History is similar. They are in a similar situation where nations do not see the benefits of hosting and see the games as a costly and pointless endeavor.

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