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Beijing/Zhangjiakou 2022


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Kazakstan has the potential of being a great political debacle for the IOC if they're not careful. And judging from the IOC's own preliminary working group evaluation report, a good amount of those things aren't high off the mark. No matter how much delusional spin GCL tries to put on it. Almaty is not the darling that he so desperately would like it to be.

Here's 1 way to look at it.. where does the IOC have more to gain. Forget the population argument that says of course it's China and their 1.3 billion people. Is putting an Olympics in Central Asia going to open up a whole new market to winter sport? Compared to putting an Olympics in China where, even though you're just coming off a first ever Winter Olympics in Korea, maybe you're doing more for winter sport. FIFA's logic when they put the 2018 World Cup in Russia (and aside from all the political nonsense involved there) was that they're trying to market the game of soccer football in a new region, just like when they came to the United States in 1994. I just don't see people being drawn to that region because of an Almaty Olympics. And while the argument isn't great for a Beijing Olympics, at least you're talking about a very prominent city that people I believe are more likely to travel to.

Again, it's easy to forget that the Winter Olympics are a once every four years event. So if they pick a bad host, that's something they could have to live with for a while to come.

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I think Beijing really has to put some effort in and help the IOC. If Beijing fixes some of it's issues, the IOC would be in a more secure place. The word dictatorship gets thrown around alot, but as much as I would trust Beijing more then Almaty, China is equally as much of a dictatorship as Kazakhstan is. Difference is, China is the most populous Country in the World, China has a much stronger economy then Kazakhstan has, China has delivered at the Biggest Stage before and the Chinese public seem to support Beijing 2022 (I'm not sure if they have a choice though, seeing as though China is a dictatorship). Also, Beijing has lot's of Venues up to Olympic and Paralympic Standards. Yes, they do need converting for Winter Sports, but that's much cheaper then having to Build a Brand New Structure, I assume.

The thing with Kazakhstan is, is that even some of the Kazakhstan Public is against Almaty 2022, there is opposition. So, the IOC don't want Almaty 2022, most of us don't want Almaty 2022 and some of the Kazakhstan public don't want Almaty 2022. PyeongChang 2018 already done the new location Bid with their 'New Horizons'. Like Quaker rightfully pointed out, Almaty Co-Hosted the 2011 Asian Winter Games with Astana and Astana was the most impressive over Almaty. Agreed that Beijing and Almaty would both be an expensive Games, but the Beijing Bid seems more safer and secure then Almaty 2022 for the reasons I said above.

The Support for Almaty 2022 in Kazakhstan is between 65 to 70% for an country with 17 million people there is three parliamentary parties in Kazakhstan it's an free country with fair elections the father of modern Kazakhstan is still alive. Lots of people feel that China just hosted to much in the past 8 years and with the bad PR from the 2008 games why would they want to go back to the same city. Almaty Kazakhstan is an new place for the IOC to go to.

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Almaty could still do well if there's enough IOC members with an "anything but China" mindset.

Those might even want to discard the evaluation.

That'd be a first. Especially when the "anything but China" is a (like Quaker has put it) a 'turd sandwich'. That's all you have left if Oslo withdraws.

I think most members disregard the evaluations when the bids in question at least very comfortably meet the minimum requirements. But Almaty did no such thing. The IOC was scrapping the bottom of the barrel in this case. And it's quite clear now, that had all those other bids hadn't pulled out, we wouldn't be having these conversations now.

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The Support for Almaty 2022 in Kazakhstan is between 65 to 70% for an country with 17 million people there is three parliamentary parties in Kazakhstan it's an free country with fair elections the father of modern Kazakhstan is still alive. Lots of people feel that China just hosted to much in the past 8 years and with the bad PR from the 2008 games why would they want to go back to the same city. Almaty Kazakhstan is an new place for the IOC to go to.

Because the IOC's options are limited. You can't make this so black and white and make it new place versus old place. It's not that simple. If we were talking about a prominent European city, that would be a more valid argument. Good for Kazakhstan that they support the Olympics. Does the IOC support sending their once-every-four-years event to that country?

Almaty is an beta world city and Kazakhstan is an up and coming global power and Winter Olympics and Paralympics Games will bring massive growth in winter sports in Central Asia and just an couple of ours flight to India too.

Why do you insist on throwing out useless tidbits like this. Do people in India care about Winter sport? Is the fact that Almaty is a short flight from Mumbai help their presence as a Winter sports hub? Tell us how accessible they are from Europe and from Eastern Asia and then maybe you'll have a more compelling argument.

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Lmfao - now you're throwing India into your "argument". A country that has won ZERO medals at the Winter Olympics I don't think does much for your 'cause', if anything.

Besides the fact that India has geographical options for "winter sports hubs" within its own borders if they want to develop them and needs not look to Central Asia for that.

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Because the IOC's options are limited. You can't make this so black and white and make it new place versus old place. It's not that simple. If we were talking about a prominent European city, that would be a more valid argument. Good for Kazakhstan that they support the Olympics. Does the IOC support sending their once-every-four-years event to that country?

Why do you insist on throwing out useless tidbits like this. Do people in India care about Winter sport? Is the fact that Almaty is a short flight from Mumbai help their presence as a Winter sports hub? Tell us how accessible they are from Europe and from Eastern Asia and then maybe you'll have a more compelling argument.

An Almaty Kazakhstan 2022 Winter Games would help to grow the winter sporting movement in an massive way they are like the same time zone as South Asian countries and be an PyeongChang South Korea 2018 2:0, It will be Prime time for India. After Kazakhstan 2022 then the IOC will finally go to China then back to Japan for the Winter Games.

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The Support for Almaty 2022 in Kazakhstan is between 65 to 70% for an country with 17 million people there is three parliamentary parties in Kazakhstan it's an free country with fair elections the father of modern Kazakhstan is still alive. Lots of people feel that China just hosted to much in the past 8 years and with the bad PR from the 2008 games why would they want to go back to the same city. Almaty Kazakhstan is an new place for the IOC to go to.

Yes it's a new place, but the IOC doesn't want to go to Almaty. That's the important piece of information on the subject. The governing body of the Olympics doesn't want to go to Almaty. So they won't go to Almaty, unless it's only Almaty left in the race. Like Quaker said, they would go back to China again not through choice, but through a lack of other decent options. If a European City or North American City was in the Bidding, then China would have small hope. Hence why, when Stockholm, Krakow and still Oslo (They are still in Officially), not many gave Beijing a chance. Now they do, because Stockholm and Krakow withdrew and Oslo is hanging on through a stubborn Bidding Team.

I still want an Oslo 2022 Winter Olympics and Paralympics, but they need to listen to the public, if the support is low. Beijing is the best of a very bad situation. Sorry GCL, Almaty is not a free place. It's a dictatorship. I'm not arguing anymore with this. Just like the IOC didn't want to go to Istanbul, even though it's a new destination. Just like the IOC didn't want to go to Annecy, even though it would have taken the Winter Olympics and Paralympics to a new destination. Just because it's a new location, doesn't mean it's going to Win. Rio 2016 was an exception and a future Durban Bid would probably be an exception too.

Because the IOC's options are limited. You can't make this so black and white and make it new place versus old place. It's not that simple. If we were talking about a prominent European city, that would be a more valid argument. Good for Kazakhstan that they support the Olympics. Does the IOC support sending their once-every-four-years event to that country?

Why do you insist on throwing out useless tidbits like this. Do people in India care about Winter sport? Is the fact that Almaty is a short flight from Mumbai help their presence as a Winter sports hub? Tell us how accessible they are from Europe and from Eastern Asia and then maybe you'll have a more compelling argument.

I completely agree with You Quaker.

Beijing is the Best of a very bad situation for the IOC. Like I stated before, if Oslo had the support and looked more likely to stay in the race and if Stockholm and Krakow had stayed in the race, Beijing wouldn't have stood a chance. Now, the IOC has no choice but to go to Beijing if Oslo withdraws. It's all good for GCL to say Almaty is a new place for the IOC, but the IOC doesn't want to go to Almaty.

If Cities like Munich and a City from Switzerland had Bid and even a Bid from North America, the IOC wouldn't have shortlisted Beijing or Almaty. Just like, if more Cities had have Bidded for 2018, Annecy probably wouldn't have been shortlisted.

GCL, I'm not getting into an argument, but You do need to look at the much bigger picture of how desperate the IOC is at the moment. Beijing is that safe option in a desperate time for the IOC. China has a much more secure economy then Kazakhstan has, so Money wouldn't be an issue for China (Of course, it might still be expensive). Also, Beijing has proven it can deliver before.

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The question is would people come back to Almaty after the Olympics. And I have trouble believing that would be the case. Contrast that with Beijing which, like you said, is a highly exposed and developed city. I think people would come there since they already do. There's something to build on there. Just like how Vancouver is already prominent city. And Salt Lake already had the ski resorts. So therein lies the problem, and is it on the organizers.. comes down to the same old issue of legacy. How do you make an Olympics and all that comes with it about more than just the 2 1/2 weeks of the Games.

this is something we have to take into consideration. We haven't talked much about legacy. What exactly will Almaty, Beijing, or Oslo do with their venues after they host. Of course they will be used for training, yes. But what about upkeep? Is the area popular enough to have enough business during the winter to break even and hopefully profit after the games to maintain funds to upkeep. The amount a venue costs wont matter if more costs are piled on for upkeep.

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An Almaty Kazakhstan 2022 Winter Games would help to grow the winter sporting movement in an massive way they are like the same time zone as South Asian countries and be an PyeongChang South Korea 2018 2:0, It will be Prime time for India. After Kazakhstan 2022 then the IOC will finally go to China then back to Japan for the Winter Games.

Would it really? Again, that's why I brought up Sochi.. will having had an Olympics in Sochi help grow the winter sporting movement? Because early indications are that it probably won't. So if that didn't happen in Sochi and in Russia, why are you so confident it'll happen in Kazakhstan? And for the record.. it's 1 hour later in Almaty during the winter than it is in Sochi. Hardly a big difference if you're talking about TV ratings.

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this is something we have to take into consideration. We haven't talked much about legacy. What exactly will Almaty, Beijing, or Oslo do with their venues after they host. Of course they will be used for training, yes. But what about upkeep? Is the area popular enough to have enough business during the winter to break even and hopefully profit after the games to maintain funds to upkeep. The amount a venue costs wont matter if more costs are piled on for upkeep.

I don't think Oslo, although the smallest of the bidders, would have the slightest trouble with legacy. There's regular world cup and world champs events held in Norway each winter - the only troubling venue, as ever so often, seems the bob/luge track.

And Beijing (as in "Chinese govt") seems keen on building that skiing centre and the high speed transportation there, so that middle class China can have more entertainment options - panem et circensis.

Almaty's legacy option is probably a winter sports hub for the 70 million passengers flying out of Australia's Alberta in the future.

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The question is would people come back to Almaty after the Olympics. And I have trouble believing that would be the case. Contrast that with Beijing which, like you said, is a highly exposed and developed city. I think people would come there since they already do. There's something to build on there. Just like how Vancouver is already prominent city. And Salt Lake already had the ski resorts. So therein lies the problem, and is it on the organizers.. comes down to the same old issue of legacy. How do you make an Olympics and all that comes with it about more than just the 2 1/2 weeks of the Games.

Personally my response would be the build up to the games. One of the problems I see some cities have is that they do not start marketing themselves until game time, for Almaty to be successful they need to ramp up the marketing now. Furthermore, they need to add things to their plan that will improve the city for the public, things that the common Joe will benefit from. They need to show that Almaty is a great city and great place to go, their advantage is that they *could* have the next eight years to it.

In the end I doubt they could do it, maybe the could, but deep down I don't think they will. Then again who knows?

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I don't think Oslo, although the smallest of the bidders, would have the slightest trouble with legacy. There's regular world cup and world champs events held in Norway each winter - the only troubling venue, as ever so often, seems the bob/luge track.

And Beijing (as in "Chinese govt") seems keen on building that skiing centre and the high speed transportation there, so that middle class China can have more entertainment options - panem et circensis.

Almaty's legacy option is probably a winter sports hub for the 70 million passengers flying out of Australia's Alberta in the future.

At the same time Beijing gives off that Sochi like persona...let's be realistic guys. How many people in the west/western society are going to stop going to the Rockies or Alps and instead go to China to ski? Hell they won't even go to Russia. The idea the Bejing/Zhanjaku could become some winters sports hub (same with Almaty) is being way too optimistic and buying into the Sochi Soap.

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Are people from the west going to fly to China to ski? Nope. But you've got a growing middle/upper class in a billion+ person country

True, a nearly 500,000 population of potential customers is nice. Then you ask yourself how these games would help the IOC, China does not need a winter olympics to get the middle class interested in winter sports. That is buying in to the Sochi Soap, the idea that the Olympics will magically make that city and nation go crazy for winter sports. China went from not even participating in the games to becoming a summer sports powerhouse in thirty so years. They could do the same with winter sports. The IOC is not going to benefit image wise because we all know the Chinese will give the IOC a blank check, and if 2022 is anything like 2008 China will go under heavy fire for human rights violations. The only thing that sucks is with Oslo slowly dropping the IOC may have to go with Beijing.

Now I'm not backing Almaty, but these are important questions to ask as the possibility of China hosting becomes more real.

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Personally my response would be the build up to the games. One of the problems I see some cities have is that they do not start marketing themselves until game time, for Almaty to be successful they need to ramp up the marketing now.

Furthermore, they need to add things to their plan that will improve the city for the public, things that the common Joe will benefit from. They need to show that Almaty is a great city and great place to go, their advantage is that they *could* have the next eight years to it.

In the end I doubt they could do it, maybe the could, but deep down I don't think they will. Then again who knows?

And do you not realize how expensive that would be to do? Not to mention, that there would be overlap & confusion with the preceding Winter Games there for a while. Plus, the average person ain't gonna really care who's hosting the Olympics 7 years out. And people will get fatigued before the Games even start if one were to "market" for that insanely amount of time. That's why the real heavy marketing starts a couple of months out before the Games. That's only stuff us here on Gamesbids care about.

Did you not read the report, & afterwards said that the IOC 'ain't' going to Almaty? Are you going back to your old song & dance now? The evaluation was pretty definitive. They're really lacking in many areas & I see, which is 6-1/2 years prep time really, from the time a winter city is awarded to hosting, as a HUGE challenged. That still would require a lot of money, ya know.

Plus, another important element here (that seems to often get ignored in this particular race for some reason. And GCL definitely ignores it) is the potential political stability of the country. And China also has the great edge in this category. People criticize Erdogan's heavy-handedness during the protests. Well, I can only see Nursultan being just as fierce, if not moreso. Not to mention, it's not really clear who would succeed him if he were no longer in power for whatever reason.

Now I'm not backing Almaty, but these are important questions to ask as the possibility of China hosting becomes more real.

What difference does it really make at that point. If Oslo withdraws, there's only one real choice left, & that's Beijing. Those 'important questions' could also be asked about Kazakstan. But the answers are definitely more difinitive in China's case.

If it gets to this stage, the IOC is no longer in a position to ask themselves how these Games will "help them" of how it effects their PR "image". But rather, out of the last two, not that really attractive options left, is going to be the least headache. You're making it sound as if they still have an abundant of good options left, which they clearly don't.

Kazakstan also doesn't need a Winter Olympics to get their populance interested in winter sports. It's also not going to 'magically' make their nation go crazy for winter sports, either. That's also buying into the GCL "soap". If you think China is dubious is some of these aspects, it just baffles the mind why you think that Kazakatan would be better suited in any of them.

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And do you not realize how expensive that would be to do? Not to mention, that there would be overlap & confusion with the preceding Winter Games there for a while. Plus, the average person ain't gonna really care who's hosting the Olympics 7 years out. And people will get fatigued before the Games even start if one were to "market" for that insanely amount of time. That's why the real heavy marketing starts a couple of months out before the Games. That's only stuff us here on Gamesbids care about.

Did you not read the report, & afterwards said that the IOC 'ain't' going to Almaty? Are you going back to your old song & dance now? The evaluation was pretty definitive. They're really lacking in many areas & I see, which is 6-1/2 years prep time really, from the time a winter city is awarded to hosting, as a HUGE challenged. That still would require a lot of money, ya know.

Plus, another important element here (that seems to often get ignored in this particular race for some reason. And GCL definitely ignores it) is the potential political stability of the country. And China also has the great edge in this category. People criticize Erdogan's heavy-handedness during the protests. Well, I can only see Nursultan being just as fierce, if not moreso. Not to mention, it's not really clear who would succeed him if he were no longer in power for whatever reason.

What difference does it really make at that point. If Oslo withdraws, there's only one real choice left, & that's Beijing. Those 'important questions' could also be asked about Kazakstan. But the answers are definitely more difinitive in China's case.

If it gets to this stage, the IOC is no longer in a position to ask themselves how these Games will "help them" of how it effects their PR "image". But rather, out of the last two, not that really attractive options left, is going to be the least headache. You're making it sound as if they still have an abundant of good options left, which they clearly don't.

Kazakstan also doesn't need a Winter Olympics to get their populance interested in winter sports. It's also not going to 'magically' make their nation go crazy for winter sports, either. That's also buying into the GCL "soap". If you think China is dubious is some of these aspects, it just baffles the mind why you think that Kazakatan would be better suited in any of them.

Once again I never said that Kazakhstan could do it. Almaty has a long, long, long way to go before they are 'Olympic ready' and that involves becoming a liberal democracy.

On terms of marketing I don't mean marketing the event, but marketing the city as a ski destination to the people of the west. China should do the same thing with Beijing. An example would be the 'Visit [insert state, city, or country here]" commercials and marketing brands. That is key for any city hoping to use the games to make the said city and Winter Sports destination. I think marketing is something frequently put on the back burner when it should be at the forefront of every games and bid.

And lets be real, marketing may cost a good bit of money, but your not going to reach the 50-40 billion dollar mark with it.

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Personally my response would be the build up to the games. One of the problems I see some cities have is that they do not start marketing themselves until game time, for Almaty to be successful they need to ramp up the marketing now. Furthermore, they need to add things to their plan that will improve the city for the public, things that the common Joe will benefit from. They need to show that Almaty is a great city and great place to go, their advantage is that they *could* have the next eight years to it.

Tourism industries depend heavily on people in nearby regions to maintain them. Central Asia does not have enough of a wealthy middle class to support a large ski industry, and they are never going to get enough Asians and Europeans to fly there when there are much more attractive skiing areas near them.

By way of comparison, about 80% of Whistler's skiers are from Canada or the USA. It wouldn't be able to survive with only the 20% made up of international visitors. And Canada is much easier place to travel to/in than anywhere in Central Asia.

Then you ask yourself how these games would help the IOC, China does not need a winter olympics to get the middle class interested in winter sports. That is buying in to the Sochi Soap, the idea that the Olympics will magically make that city and nation go crazy for winter sports. China went from not even participating in the games to becoming a summer sports powerhouse in thirty so years. They could do the same with winter sports. The IOC is not going to benefit image wise because we all know the Chinese will give the IOC a blank check, and if 2022 is anything like 2008 China will go under heavy fire for human rights violations. The only thing that sucks is with Oslo slowly dropping the IOC may have to go with Beijing.

Sapporo '72 certainly boosted winter sports in Japan. I don't see any reason things would be different in China. There are a lot of things the Olympics don't do well, but capturing the attention of the host country is one of the things they always accomplish.

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