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They only got onto the shortlist because there is only 3 Candidates left, just like Annecy only got onto the 2018 Candidate List because there were only 3 Candidates.

If Stockholm and Krakow hadn't withdrawn and if Munich and a Switzerland Bid had Bidded, Almaty wouldn't have made it as a Candidate City.

Most people support Oslo or Beijing over Almaty on these Forums, only People who can't see reality keep on supporting Almaty 2022.

So, you think the IOC is lying to everyone with their short list??? The don't believe Almaty can deliver, but are spreading lies and forcing Almaty to spend lot of money so they can say they have three on their list??? Quite the mind-reading trick for a 17-year old.

As for "most people on this forum" you statement is probably not true. Do a count, see what you get.

And as somebody who is now supporting Almaty, you attack that I "can't see reality" is just pathetic.

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For someone that consistently rates the IOC as being "a bunch of corrupt weasels", it's rather rich of you to say now (to say the least) that the IOC is then incapable of telling us lies (or at the very least, sugar-coat the truth) &/or forcing bids to spend a lot of money when in the end they really stood no chance TBW. Tell that to the Annecy's, Istanbul's & Madrid's of the world. And besides, Almaty is in an oil-rich nation anyway. So the amount they spend on a bid is like pocket change to them. What does the IOC care.

It's no "lie" that Almaty received the lowest score on the preliminary 2022 evaluation. And you can't honestly sit there with a straight face, that had all those potential, credible & desirable bids actually gone forward with their 2022 plans, that this would even be a topic of debate now.

Fact of the matter is, the IOC has scrapped the bottom of the barrel with this one. And why they still chose to include them, is no different than when the IOC chooses to do anything else. They tweak things as they go along, however it fits them the most at the end.

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The problem with this logic is you presume the people of China and Kazahkstan do want the games. In countries without free press and speech, who knows what the people want, or even understand.

At least with Norway, the people are informed and have the opportunity to protest. Much better in my book.

Although much of the TV money still comes from the US, the IOC also cares a lot about Europe and Asia. Norway is in a terrible time zone for the US, but a good timezone for Europe and Asia. Beijing is in a terribel time zone for Europe, but a good time zone for East Asia and a not-terrible time zone for the US.

In the end, it kinda balances out.

There's no problem with the logic at all.

The IOC can only work with the polling data they have. What evidence do you have to prove the Kazakhs and Chinese do not want the Games?

Just because those countries are not known for free speech does not necessarily mean the IOC's polls are wrong. It certainly doesn't mean those countries are equally opposed to the Games as Norway. That's the huge flaw in your "logic."

I fail to see how there is any logic whatsoever to awarding the Games to people who clearly don't want them just because the country allows free speech. What good is free speech if the government ignores its people? "Let's reward Norway's free speech by giving them Olympics that most people don't want." Yeah, that makes sense.

I know you derive some sense of identity by playing the iconoclast, but this is just foolish. Get it together.

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Yeah, but he uses the word "trashing", which is such total BS. Especially when he's done the same type of 'trashing' against Beijjng. Highlighting some weaknesses & facts against is doing no such thing.

You've made up crap about Almaty saying they're budget will spiral simply because of it's geographic connection to Sochi. You've called them a dictatorship. You've hammered them over their hosting experience even though they've hosted more winter events then Beijing and Zhangjiakou.

Meanwhile i've stated that Beijing has abhorrent air pollution and although they promised they'd fix it up following the 2008 olympics, they have not kept to their promise and it is now worse. So yeah, you have trashed Almaty. And I can admit that Beijing has quite a few positives, but the way you act about Almaty is as if Tripoli was bidding for the winter games.

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Modern day Kazakhstan father Nursultan Nazarbayev is still alive and he done great work in building up Kazakhstan an 2022 Winter Olympics and Paralympics Games would be an great send off to him he will be 81 years old when the 2022 Winter Games take place. Future Presidents of Kazakhstan will be elected to two five year terms only.

Under him Kazakhstan has gone from an backwater in the world to an up and coming global power with strong and friendly links with everyone Tony Blair is his adviser and Kazakhstan is one of the few Islamic countries which allows Religious Freedom the other two countries are Azerbaijan and Indonesia Turkey is becoming like Iran now an Islamic state.

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Modern day Kazakhstan father Nursultan Nazarbayev is still alive and he done great work in building up Kazakhstan an 2022 Winter Olympics and Paralympics Games would be an great send off to him he will be 81 years old when the 2022 Winter Games take place. Future Presidents of Kazakhstan will be elected to two five year terms only.

Under him Kazakhstan has gone from an backwater in the world to an up and coming global power with strong and friendly links with everyone Tony Blair is his adviser and Kazakhstan is one of the few Islamic countries which allows Religious Freedom the other two countries are Azerbaijan and Indonesia Turkey is becoming like Iran now an Islamic state.

No. Just no. These are false claims. Fact is, Kazakhstan is a dictatorship. No freedom of anything. Same goes for China, but at least we know China can deliver.

Almaty 2022 will not happen.

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You've made up crap about Almaty saying they're budget will spiral simply because of it's geographic connection to Sochi. You've called them a dictatorship. You've hammered them over their hosting experience even though they've hosted more winter events then Beijing and Zhangjiakou.

Are you kidding me with this. So are you saying that Kazakhstan is NOT a dictatorship? It's a totally open & free society with absolutely NO human rights violations whatsoever?!

Here we go again, totally misrepresenting what I said. I mentioned how do you know that Almaty's budget wouldn't go outta control as well, since that's what you keep criticizing the Chinese for. Even though both Beijing & Almaty have given the speil of "low-cost" Games.

And I haven't 'hammered' Almaty over their hosting "experience" anymore than you trying to paint a picture as if they're somekind of hosting mecca for winter sports, simply bcuz Zhangziakou hasn't. It's a blurry picture at best, & total 'crap' at worst.

Meanwhile i've stated that Beijing has abhorrent air pollution and although they promised they'd fix it up following the 2008 olympics, they have not kept to their promise and it is now worse. So yeah, you have trashed Almaty. And I can admit that Beijing has quite a few positives, but the way you act about Almaty is as if Tripoli was bidding for the winter games.

Oh please. You've "hammered" away at the Chinese forwards, backwards & sideways with your "crap", as if "tripoli" were hosting, too. So don't sit there now & say that all you've done is merely cite their air pollution. Not to mention, that Almaty has air pollution issues of their own. But whatever. I'm done with this crap if all you're gonna do is twist things around & make false accusations, as usual.

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At least with Kazakhstan people are free to vote for any party they like there are three parliamentary parties in the Parliament of Kazakhstan and other minor parties in Kazakhstan are allowed. In China there are allowed to vote if only they are Communist party members, Kazakhstan was once the chair of OSCE with great links with NATO. Kazakhstan is light years ahead of China with freedom wise lots of people like the President that is why he wins re-election he has done loads of great works and building up Kazakhstan to an secular liberal democracy.

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Are you kidding me with this. So are you saying that Kazakhstan is NOT a dictatorship? It's a totally open & free society with absolutely NO human rights violations whatsoever?!

Here we go again, totally misrepresenting what I said. I mentioned how do you know that Almaty's budget wouldn't go outta control as well, since that's what you keep criticizing the Chinese for. Even though both Beijing & Almaty have given the speil of "low-cost" Games.

And I haven't 'hammered' Almaty over their hosting "experience" anymore than you trying to paint a picture as if they're somekind of hosting mecca for winter sports, simply bcuz Zhangziakou hasn't. It's a blurry picture at best, & total 'crap' at worst.

Oh please. You've "hammered" away at the Chinese forwards, backwards & sideways with your "crap", as if "tripoli" were hosting, too. So don't sit there now & say that all you've done is merely cite their air pollution. Not to mention, that Almaty has air pollution issues of their own. But whatever. I'm done with this crap if all you're gonna do is twist things around & make false accusations, as usual.

Thank You. Someone who can see the reality of this situation.

At least with Kazakhstan people are free to vote for any party they like there are three parliamentary parties in the Parliament of Kazakhstan and other minor parties in Kazakhstan are allowed. In China there are allowed to vote if only they are Communist party members, Kazakhstan was once the chair of OSCE with great links with NATO. Kazakhstan is light years ahead of China with freedom wise lots of people like the President that is why he wins re-election he has done loads of great works and building up Kazakhstan to an secular liberal democracy.

Kazakhstan isn't free. Kazakhstan isn't a Democracy. Kazakhstan is a dictatorship. Kazakhstan is ex Soviet Union and would be a Sochi 2.0. At least we acknowledge that Almaty and Beijing are both dictatorships. Difference is, we know Beijing can deliver. Almaty cannot deliver.

Almaty have only got the Hosting rights for the 2017 Winter Universiade because no one else Bidded.

Almaty has only made it onto the 2022 Winter Olympics and Paralympics Shortlist Bidding because there weren't many Bidders left. If Stockholm and Krakow had stayed in the race and if Munich or a Switzerland Bid had Bidded, Almaty wouldn't have made it this far.

If the 6 Original Bidders (Stockholm, Oslo, Krakow, Beijing, Almaty and Lviv) had all stayed in the Bidding race, Stockholm, Oslo, Krakow and Beijing would have become Candidate Cities and Almaty and Lviv would have been eliminated. Almaty has only made it this far because of lack of Bidders. Almaty won't Win.

The IOC has already said they have no interest in Almaty 2022.

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No. Just no. These are false claims. Fact is, Kazakhstan is a dictatorship. No freedom of anything. Same goes for China, but at least we know China can deliver.

Almaty 2022 will not happen.

How exactly do you envision average Chinese life to be? What are the rights that you deem so important that are necessary for an Olympic bid to become at least fairly successful?

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I know you derive some sense of identity by playing the iconoclast, but this is just foolish. Get it together.

Not sure what you are talking about. I honestly believe you cannot favor a dictatorship over a free country based on polls in the free country showing less than 50% support. When comparing free vs not-free, you have to take popular support out of the equation because popular support has no meetnig in a totalitarian dictatorship.

It's like saying you want to eat at Applebees because you did the math on your home cooked meal and it wasn't healthy.

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I am a fan of Almaty if it is head-to-head with Beijing....... but to call it in any way 'free' as we understand it in the West is a joke.

Having said that, Kazakhstan is doing a lot better than I thought on global freedom indexes, it is in a better position than the other big 'stans' like Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, but that is not saying much!

Kazakhstan 5 not free 3 moderately free 4 difficult situation 5 authoritarian regime

freedom economic press democracy

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Are you kidding me with this. So are you saying that Kazakhstan is NOT a dictatorship? It's a totally open & free society with absolutely NO human rights violations whatsoever?!

Here we go again, totally misrepresenting what I said. I mentioned how do you know that Almaty's budget wouldn't go outta control as well, since that's what you keep criticizing the Chinese for. Even though both Beijing & Almaty have given the speil of "low-cost" Games.

And I haven't 'hammered' Almaty over their hosting "experience" anymore than you trying to paint a picture as if they're somekind of hosting mecca for winter sports, simply bcuz Zhangziakou hasn't. It's a blurry picture at best, & total 'crap' at worst.

Oh please. You've "hammered" away at the Chinese forwards, backwards & sideways with your "crap", as if "tripoli" were hosting, too. So don't sit there now & say that all you've done is merely cite their air pollution. Not to mention, that Almaty has air pollution issues of their own. But whatever. I'm done with this crap if all you're gonna do is twist things around & make false accusations, as usual.

Stop freaking twisting my words. I did not say they had no human rights violations and I also did not say that Kazakhstan wasn't a dictatorship. However, you never seem to highlight the exorbitant amount of human rights violations that China has and not to mention the fact that the country has one political party. Talk about bagging one countries flaws and yet being completely ignorant to another. I know Kazahkstan isn't a fantastic country with a great human rights record but neither is China and i'm not going to stop saying so until you actually admit their flaws.

You can't have a go at me for saying Almaty might not have a blowout budget when you're saying Almaty will be an expensive games simply because of it's geographic connection to Sochi. Especially when Beijing proved that they will have a blowout budget as seen in 2008.

No, Almaty isn't a mecca for winter games. However, both Zhangjiakou AND Beijing lack any real experience in hosting winter events.

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Stop freaking twisting my words. I did not say they had no human rights violations and I also did not say that Kazakhstan wasn't a dictatorship.

I'm not freaking twisting anything. This is what you said earlier:

You've made up crap about Almaty.. You've called them a dictatorship.

You use the words "made up crap", then followed by "you've called them a dictatorship", as if I were making that up. How else is that quote suppose to be taken then?!

However, you never seem to highlight the exorbitant amount of human rights violations that China has and not to mention the fact that the country has one political party.

Why do I need to state the obvious. I've never denied those issues, either. So what's the point. Plus, you do a fine job yourself in bringing them up anyway.

Talk about bagging one countries flaws and yet being completely ignorant to another.

Pot calling the kettle black!

I know Kazahkstan isn't a fantastic country with a great human rights record but neither is China and i'm not going to stop saying so until you actually admit their flaws.

I've never claimed otherwise, so there's nothing to "admit". This isn't kindergarten, ya know.

You can't have a go at me for saying Almaty might not have a blowout budget when you're saying Almaty will be an expensive games simply because of it's geographic connection to Sochi.

Ugh, I never said that. Maybe someone else did. The only relation I've ever made between the two is the *perception* (being an ex-soviet republic) that the IOC might want to stay away from, considering many of the bad PR to the lead-up of the Sochi Games.

Especially when Beijing proved that they will have a blowout budget as seen in 2008.

So you're merely basing this on a total black-&-white scenario. Simply bcuz they did before, means they'll do so again. Even though, the Chinese have stated otherwise. And considering that the IOC probably doesn't give a flying fukc anyway, considering the mess that they're in with this race anyway.

No, Almaty isn't a mecca for winter games. However, both Zhangjiakou AND Beijing lack any real experience in hosting winter events.

This isn't a "be-all, end all" aspect as you're trying to make it sound, though. Especially, when again, the IOC can't be really picky in this race. And also, when Almaty's winter hosting "experience" is virtually negligible anyway.

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I'm not freaking twisting anything. This is what you said earlier:

You use the words "made up crap", then followed by "you've called them a dictatorship", as if I were making that up. How else is that quote suppose to be taken then?!

Where did I say Kazahkstan has no human rights violations? Because you said "Are you kidding me with this. So are you saying that Kazakhstan is NOT a dictatorship? It's a totally open & free society with absolutely NO human rights violations whatsoever?!"

Ugh, I never said that. Maybe someone else did. The only relation I've ever made between the two is the *perception* (being an ex-soviet republic) that the IOC might want to stay away from, considering many of the bad PR to the lead-up of the Sochi Games.

So it's ok for you to assume that Almatys budget will blowout because they are oil rich and have money to kill (you have said that before). However, I can't state that Beijing's budget will blowout even though there is actual evidence showing that they had a budget blowout for the 2008 Olympics?

So you're merely basing this on a total black-&-white scenario. Simply bcuz they did before, means they'll do so again. Even though, the Chinese have stated otherwise. And considering that the IOC probably doesn't give a flying fukc anyway, considering the mess that they're in with this race anyway.

I know it's a fallacy to say that because it's happened before it will happen again. However, you're telling me i'm meant to trust everything the Chinese said? I mean they had a budget in 2008, they more then overspent on that. They said they'd decrease air pollution following the games, they haven't done that. I'm not going to go and trust what they say.

This isn't a "be-all, end all" aspect as you're trying to make it sound, though. Especially, when again, the IOC can't be really picky in this race. And also, when Almaty's winter hosting "experience" is virtually negligible anyway.

That's the thing! It's not virtually negligible. It at least has given them some hosting experience. And because of this it has also given them the most venues that are up to date out of all of the bidding cities.

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Where did I say Kazahkstan has no human rights violations? Because you said "Are you kidding me with this. So are you saying that Kazakhstan is NOT a dictatorship? It's a totally open & free society with absolutely NO human rights violations whatsoever?!"

Again, read your original text that I quoted from you. You said I was "making up crap" about Almaty, then you followed that by saying "you've called them a dictatorship". As if somehow that weren't true & I was making that up. Hence, why I then asked you those things in a question format.

So it's ok for you to assume that Almatys budget will blowout because they are oil rich and have money to kill (you have said that before).

However, I can't state that Beijing's budget will blowout even though there is actual evidence showing that they had a budget blowout for the 2008 Olympics?

What you fail to realize is that it's not just the budget for building things, etc. Kazahkstan ranks 13 slots behind Russia in the 'Corruption Perception Index'. And that's where a lot of the money could be blown away at. By giving kickbacks, bribes, etc, to cronies & swindlers who want part of the big Olympic pie, which was what a good part of the $51 Billion pricetag in Sochi was squandered on. THAT's where I made the relation to Sochi, not bcuz the two cities are "geographically close" (especially when they're not).

And many cities exceed their budget. So it's not like Beijing 2008 was any exception. Especially with the amount of work that had to be done before the Olympics, which the IOC was totally privy to.

I know it's a fallacy to say that because it's happened before it will happen again. However, you're telling me i'm meant to trust everything the Chinese said? I mean they had a budget in 2008, they more then overspent on that. They said they'd decrease air pollution following the games, they haven't done that. I'm not going to go and trust what they say.

So if someone that was very close to you, duped you the first time, (although, even in this case, the Chinese still delivered most of what was promised), you wouldn't give them a second chance to prove themselves? Especially if your other alternative is less than desirable/reliable? Is it a one-strike & you're-out philosophy in your book?

That's the thing! It's not virtually negligible. It at least has given them some hosting experience. And because of this it has also given them the most venues that are up to date out of all of the bidding cities.

And yet even considering this, a lot of their marks on the preliminary evaluation were very poor.

The few venues that they have may be 'up-to-date', but less than likely are up to Olympic standards anyway.

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  • 2 weeks later...

^^ Same guy who did the 2013 Univesiade Opening in Kazan (Igor Krutoy) which was as spectacular. They're going to need a very spectacular ceremony which works like a smoke curtain from all the stuff they might face (human rights protests, problematic organization, and overspending a lot of money a la Sochi-Oooh believe me, they will do it).

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^^ Same guy who did the 2013 Univesiade Opening in Kazan (Igor Krutoy) which was as spectacular. They're going to need a very spectacular ceremony which works like a smoke curtain from all the stuff they might face (human rights protests, problematic organization, and overspending a lot of money a la Sochi-Oooh believe me, they will do it).

like this one???

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