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It's just mainly ONE person (see below) who gets all up in arms whenever anyone constructively criticizes the all-wonderful Almaty bid.


No, it's not the "majority" of events. And again, remind all of is where this no-name *Chinese* city is located. Not to mention, that the anchor city is still the capital of the most populous country on the planet, which now also has the world's top economy. Apples & oranges to say the least.

No, it's because you seem to stick your head in the sand and ignore every flaw with Beijings bid. The fact that you aren't acnowledging how ridiculous the distance issue is simply shows that. And it is a significant amount of events.

Distance from Yanqing to Beijing. 90km. Yanqing hosting Alpine Skiing, Bobsleigh, Luge and Skeleton.

Distance from Zhangjiakou to Beijing. 200km. Zhangjiakou hosting Cross country skiing, Nordic Combined, Ski Jumping, Snowboard (parallel slalom, cross, slopestyle, halfpipe), Freestyle Skiing, Biathlon.

And Beijing hosting ceremonies, figure skating, short track, ice hockey, curling and speed skating.

So yeah I would say the majority of events are outside of Beijing.

Right, forgot the air pollution again. Big problem..

smog-almaty-kazhakstan.jpg.662x0_q100_cr

..for Almaty

No one is going to say that Beijing doesn't have issues with air pollution, but to use that against Beijing as if Almaty is that much stronger in that category is ridiculous.

I'm aware Almaty has awful air pollution. However, Almaty didn't host the 2008 Olympics and as a legacy promise to improve on their air pollution and then back flip and continue destroying their environment to hazardous levels.

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What if a bunch of Euro IOCers don't vote for China so China is unable to develop winter sports and won't be able to dominate the Euros in the events they usually win at in the Winter Olympics?

I know none of them would say it outright, but it's just a thought. Not everyone is moral in the IOC...

Also this kinda bugged me before but why did we use Annecy as a threshold of how experience gets you hosting rights? They lost pretty bad...

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No, it's because you seem to stick your head in the sand and ignore every flaw with Beijings bid. The fact that you aren't acnowledging how ridiculous the distance issue is simply shows that. And it is a significant amount of events.

Distance from Yanqing to Beijing. 90km.

Distance from Zhangjiakou to Beijing. 200km.

Well, then perhaps you should send an email to the real people who "stick their heads in the sand" (the IOC) since it's quite apparent you know something that they don't. The distance was not a big an issue, as you wanna make it out to be, in the preliminary.

And remind us the distance between Oslo & Lillehammer (which is virtually the same as Beijing to Zhangziakou at 120 miles), which when the Norwegians were still in the race, it was the clear front-runner to win it all. And when the Norwegians did end up eventually withdrawing, the IOC was mad as hell. Go figure. And let's not forget the distance between Vancouver & Whistler as well (80 miles).

I'm aware Almaty has awful air pollution. However, Almaty didn't host the 2008 Olympics and as a legacy promise to improve on their air pollution and then back flip and continue destroying their environment to hazardous levels.

So bcuz of this, you think Almaty is the solution? What makes you think that they'd handle their air pollution any differently. Especially when the country is also runned by a ruthless dictator. Now who's "sticking their head in the sand".

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Well, then perhaps you should send an email to the real people who "stick their heads in the sand" (the IOC) since it's quite apparent you know something that they don't. The distance was not a big an issue, as you wanna make it out to be, in the preliminary.

And remind us the distance between Oslo & Lillehammer (which is virtually the same as Beijing to Zhangziakou at 120 miles), which when the Norwegians were still in the race, it was the clear front-runner to win it all. And when the Norwegians did end up eventually withdrawing, the IOC was mad as hell. Go figure. And let's not forget the distance between Vancouver & Whistler as well (80 miles).

So bcuz of this, you think Almaty is the solution? What makes you think that they'd handle their air pollution any differently. Especially when the country is also runned by a ruthless dictator. Now who's "sticking their head in the sand".

Because the IOC clearly want Beijing to win. Which was more then obvious by the ridiculous evaluation scores Beijing was awarded. The distance should be an issue and majority of people know that. 200km? Come on... And look at the amount of events that aren't even located in Beijing. It's pathetic.

And yeah of course Oslo was a frontrunner even with the distance. Both Almaty and Beijing have significant air pollution issues. Almaty is located in an unknown nation whilst Beijing just hosted the Summer Olympics 7 years prior to the vote. Oslo had the lowest amount of flaws but unfortunately they pulled out which left the IOC in a bad position.

And no, I don't think Almaty is the solution. I've said this time and time again, I would rather Beijing win. I'd rather travel to China then Kazakhstan as I don't know much about the nation. The location is also easier for me from Brisbane to Beijing, shorter travel times and not much of a time zone difference.

But my point still stands. You ask what would make Almaty handle the situation differently. We already know how Beijing handled it, they tricked the IOC, said they would fix it and then screwed it over. We have seen what Beijing does, and what they do is lie.

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What if a bunch of Euro IOCers don't vote for China so China is unable to develop winter sports and won't be able to dominate the Euros in the events they usually win at in the Winter Olympics?

I know none of them would say it outright, but it's just a thought. Not everyone is moral in the IOC.....

Umm, something tells me that the Euro IOC members wouldn't have to worry about that. At least not anytime soon anyway. The Japanese have hosted two Winter Olympics already, & they're not any closer now in overtaking the Europeans in winter sports than they were before they hosted.

Also this kinda bugged me before but why did we use Annecy as a threshold of how experience gets you hosting rights? They lost pretty bad...

I don't anybody here uses Annecy as a 'threshold' for anything. At least not the general consensus anyway.

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Umm, something tells me that the Euro IOC members wouldn't have to worry about that. At least not anytime soon anyway. The Japanese have hosted two Winter Olympics already, & they're not any closer now in overtaking the Europeans in winter sports than they were before they hosted.

China has a more monolithically driven mindset; and they have a 1.3 billion gene pool. Japan only has 1/10th of that. China is, will develop the athletic-propaganda programs that the old USSR and East Germany could not do on their own individually.

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Because the IOC clearly want Beijing to win. Which was more then obvious by the ridiculous evaluation scores Beijing was awarded. The distance should be an issue and majority of people know that. 200km? Come on... And look at the amount of events that aren't even located in Beijing. It's pathetic.

And no, I don't think Almaty is the solution. But my point still stands. You ask what would make Almaty handle the situation differently. We already know how Beijing handled it, they tricked the IOC, said they would fix it and then screwed it over. We have seen what Beijing does, and what they do is lie.

Well, like I said then, send an email to the IOC to address your grievances, instead of lashing out on us here for a position that seemingly even you uphold If you're still willing to travel to Beijing bcuz it'd be easier for you to get to from Brisbane than unknown (even to you) Kazahkstan.

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China has a more monolithically driven mindset; and they have a 1.3 billion gene pool. Japan only has 1/10th of that. China is, will develop the athletic-propaganda programs that the old USSR and East Germany could not do on their own individually.

Even still, it would probably take a decade or two before they were even close. It's not something that probably is of great concern to the IOC right now anyway, especially is this farce that is the 2022 race.

And as you say the Chinese are monolithical, so they probably don't need the Winter Olympics if they really set their minds to it. Like Russia, they could probably be great even before they ever had their first chance at the Winter Olympics.

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Well, like I said then, send an email to the IOC to address your grievances, instead of lashing out on us here for a position that seemingly even you uphold If you're still willing to travel to Beijing bcuz it'd be easier for you to get to from Brisbane than unknown (even to you) Kazahkstan.

Something that's convenient to me is a lot different to you completely ignoring Beijing's flaws.

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I don't anybody here uses Annecy as a 'threshold' for anything. At least not the general consensus anyway.

It was back on page 30. It just kinda bugged me at the moment because some people talk about hosing summer events in general make them more favorable, when there are many more important factors that play into it.

I think some people really underestimate the importance of hosting SUMMER OGs. and experience of hosting SUMMER sports events

Annecy 2018 applicant review got 9.0-10.0 scores,

Do you remember what the listed?

Annecy: cycling, open water swimming, athletics, mountain bike, golf

France: rugby, athletics, handball, cycling, tennis

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SIGH, yet again I'm not "ignoring" anything more nor less, nor different than what the IOC is or isn't ignoring. If you can't tell the difference, then that's your issue. And obviously I'm not the only one who holds the same position judging by this thread. But anyway, I'm done with this roller coaster.

^

Something that's convenient to me is a lot different to you completely ignoring Beijing's flaws.

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Even still, it would probably take a decade or two before they were even close. It's not something that probably is of great concern to the IOC right now anyway, especially is this farce that is the 2022 race.

And as you say the Chinese are monolithical, so they probably don't need the Winter Olympics if they really set their minds to it. Like Russia, they could probably be great even before they ever had their first chance at the Winter Olympics.

Nah. But you need the Olympics to showcase how great you are...especially on your home turf...like Russia clearly topping the medals chart last year. That's icing on the cake for any Oly host.

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No, it's because you seem to stick your head in the sand and ignore every flaw with Beijings bid. The fact that you aren't acnowledging how ridiculous the distance issue is simply shows that. And it is a significant amount of events.

No one is sticking their heads in the sand. Most of us have looked at both bids, are well aware of the flaws, and still think Beijing will win. It's not like we're ignoring the deficiencies in Beijing's bid and saying how wonderful they are. We know it's a giant douche and a turd sandwich. But you yourself said you want Beijing to win (not jus you think they're going to win, you WANT them to win) because you'd rather travel to China than to Kazakhstan. You just made the case for Beijing right there. You're the one who brought up the evaluation scores to me. You're the one who is dumbfounded by this idea that Beijing is that preferable to Almaty, but I don't see too many people here questioning that logic. Yes, it's a sad state of affairs that Beijing has another Olympics they probably don't deserve that's about to fall right into their laps. Bringing up their flaws (and no one is fighting you on these points, we know they exist) does not change their place in this competition in comparison to the 1 city they're up against.

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  • 3 weeks later...

But I still am directly "at a loss" as to why. Isn't Kazakhstan a member of the Olympic family?

Two reasons. The first is selfish. The games are a big party for IOC voters and their families. They want the best hotels, restaurants, shopping etc.

But the bigger reason is that the IOC views the games as the most important sporting event on the planet. Thus it should be held in the most important cities and venues in the world. kazakhstan is a bit too "back woods" to fit their image of where the games belong.

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Have you read all 35 pages of this thread, for example? If you have, then I'm 'at a loss' as to why you're still at a loss. Even in the second to last page demonstrates why Kazakhstan is not an ideal place where the IOC would care to take the Games to.

'Underdog' isn't the proper phrase I would even use in this particular farce that is 2022 bid 'race'. either. Almaty has only gotten to that "status" since every other city that was interested in the 2022 winter Games abandoned ship. Not exactly anything that is too noteworthy on their part.

^

But I still am directly "at a loss" as to why. Isn't Kazakhstan a member of the Olympic family?

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While I am a fan of the Chinese since the most epic Olympic opening ceremony in human history was executed by them, I am a fan, in this case of the underdog. What is the risk in the Kazakhstan bid? Would anyone like to explain?

As FYI noted, the previous 34 pages of this thread offer an explanation. But to explain further so you don't have to go back through all that..

The Winter Olympics come around once every 4 years. That means the IOC has only one shot at doing it right and if they mess that up, they have to wait another 4 years before it comes around again. In an ideal world where the 'Olympic Movement' means something, the Winter Olympics are supposed to leave a legacy to the host city/country. That means leaving facilities and infrastructure that will be useful to that city after the Games leave town. Sochi, for all their big spending, offered that they would leave this big Winter resort which people would return to for years to come. Probably not going to happen, but that's what the IOC would like to see in addition to what the host city can offer in terms of throwing a big party.

So the issue for me is where does the IOC want to leave that legacy. Do they want to put it in China, population of 1.3 billion? Or do they want to put it in Kazakhstan and hope that people will return there after the Games. This isn't some continental sports festival. This is THE preeminent world sports festival. Is the world going to come to Kazakhstan? Will visitors come to Kazakhstan after the Games are over?

That's the risk. That's what the IOC is weighing. And that's why the IOC, given the choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich, is destined to head to China for 2022 IMHO.

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While I am a fan of the Chinese since the most epic Olympic opening ceremony in human history was executed by them, I am a fan, in this case of the underdog. What is the risk in the Kazakhstan bid? Would anyone like to explain?

There is a significant amount of political risk because Kazakhstan is an outright dictatorship. They chose China and Russia, but even those two countries are way better than Kazakhstan on human rights issues. In China if you speak out against the government you may end up in prison. In Kazakhstan the police may simply shoot you.

Beyond that it's not much of a place to host a party, and while it has oil wealth it isn't a huge economy overall like China. The average person in Kazakhstan is very poor and likely won't be buying much Olympic merchandise, while another Chinese games would make the IOC a lot of money.

And in my opinion picking Beijing again also gives the IOC two other advantages. They get to give Beijing a better legacy for its white elephant stadium(s). And they also wouldn't have to deal with another Chinese bid again for a decade or so. If they pick Almaty then the Chinese are going to want Shanghai for the summer games soon. The IOC doesn't particularly like the USA and China, but they are too big economically to ignore forever. The Olympics ARE going to end up back in China soon. It might as well be now.

There are some bad aspects to a Chinese bid, but there are also some good reasons to choose Beijing. It's hard to find the positives for Almaty.

Edited by Nacre
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Have you read all 35 pages of this thread, for example? If you have, then I'm 'at a loss' as to why you're still at a loss. Even in the second to last page demonstrates why Kazakhstan is not an ideal place where the IOC would care to take the Games to.

'Underdog' isn't the proper phrase I would even use in this particular farce that is 2022 bid 'race'. either. Almaty has only gotten to that "status" since every other city that was interested in the 2022 winter Games abandoned ship. Not exactly anything that is too noteworthy on their part.

^

Clearly you have the commodity of time in excess to read ALL 35 pages. I submit, quite emphatically, that is my shortfall given my work. Nonetheless, I would need to see Almaty's plans. Do you think that every other city that was interested in the 2022 winter games because they self inadequate against the competition from Beijing?

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It's not that I (or any of the other regulars here for that matter) have "the commodity of time in excess", but if someone is genuinely looking for "explanations" about a subject that is readily available that they would take the time to at least look at what is there. I haven't posted anymore than you have today.

I think reading "all" 35 pages could be done in perhaps a lunch break if one was really interested in doing so. Don't mean to sound harsh, but it gets a bit fatiguing when new people come around sometimes & just ask to rehash what is already there. Especially when there's already been enough heated debate around here on the subject.

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Clearly you have the commodity of time in excess to read ALL 35 pages. I submit, quite emphatically, that is my shortfall given my work. Nonetheless, I would need to see Almaty's plans. Do you think that every other city that was interested in the 2022 winter games because they self inadequate against the competition from Beijing?

Has nothing to do with an excess of time. This thread was started back in October of 2013. So many of us have been a part of the discussion for well over a year now. It's understandable that you don't have the time or the energy to go through all 35 pages, but that being said, you're jumping into a conversation that been going on for a long time now, so for you to ask some of the same questions that have already been brought up, to some of us it's a little repetitive. So forgive us for having to recap for you because you're joining us late in the game. But since you asked..

When the field of cities first started to come into focus, there were 6 candidates. Beijing and Almaty were an after-thought behind some fairly strong European candidates and they were longshots. The only chance they had would be for their competition to start dropping out. Well, that's exactly what happened. Stockholm dropped out of the race. Then Krakow dropped out. Lviv, which probably never had a real shot anyway, dropped out due to political pressure. Then Oslo dropped out. So we're left with Beijing and Almaty. No, no one dropped out because of Beijing. Those cities, again with the exception of Lviv, probably all would have beaten Beijing. But for their own reasons, mostly involving economics and political pressure, they decided they were no longer interested in bidding.

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