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So, you think the IOC is lying to everyone with their short list??? The don't believe Almaty can deliver, but are spreading lies and forcing Almaty to spend lot of money so they can say they have thre

Speakout out against injustice and discrimination = "shove it down their throats". PS - Anyone else find it amusing that men opposed to gay rights seem to always use that expression.

List for us all the events Sochi had hosted before their Winter Olympics. They had none, yet it seems they managed to handle things pretty well, some issues and legacy problems aside. Part of it is handling the crowds and the crush of people descending upon your city/country. That's the experience Beijing has that Almaty does not.

But you just said Sochi hadn't hosted anything and yet they "handled things pretty well"........ So Almaty not having "experience" (your words not mine) shouldn't matter? Just going to get off topic for a second. You say Sochi hosted no events yet they scored 5.2-7.2 on Experience from past sports events for 2014. Whilst Almaty scored 4.5-7 in 2022. Despite having hosted the 2011 Winter Asian games and being selected to host or having hosted other events. I wonder how the IOC evaluate that section cause it just dumbfounds me.

But i'm sure Beijing can host a great Olympics, they can just throw billions and billions of dollars at the event like they did for 2008 and have a legacy where the city is filled with air pollution and many venues are empty or were instead turned into a water park.

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List for us all the events Sochi had hosted before their Winter Olympics. They had none, yet it seems they managed to handle things pretty well, some issues and legacy problems aside. Part of it is handling the crowds and the crush of people descending upon your city/country. That's the experience Beijing has that Almaty does not.

I know, it just irks me a certain someone says Almaty has no experience, when it clearly has hosted more winter events then Beijing has.

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But you just said Sochi hadn't hosted anything and yet they "handled things pretty well"........ So Almaty not having "experience" (your words not mine) shouldn't matter? Just going to get off topic for a second. You say Sochi hosted no events yet they scored 5.2-7.2 on Experience from past sports events for 2014. Whilst Almaty scored 4.5-7 in 2022. Despite having hosted the 2011 Winter Asian games and being selected to host or having hosted other events. I wonder how the IOC evaluate that section cause it just dumbfounds me.

But i'm sure Beijing can host a great Olympics, they can just throw billions and billions of dollars at the event like they did for 2008 and have a legacy where the city is filled with air pollution and many venues are empty or were instead turned into a water park.

Sochi, Russia

Almaty, Kazakhstan

That's the difference. Sochi handled things well because they had the resources and the political clout of Russia behind them. The narrative behind their bid is that they were trying to build a Winter resort that people would come to for a long time to come after the Olympics (whether they succeed is a different story altogether). I just can't see that happening in Kazakhstan. That's certainly not a knock against them holding Winter sports events, but this is the Olympics. Once every four years. Trying to attract people from all over the world. If the question is which city is more capable of putting on a Winter sports festival, I give that edge to Almaty. But this isn't a Winter sports festival. This is THE Winter sports festival. For that, political influence counts for a lot. Based on that, China is likely to get the edge over Kazakhstan IMO.

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I know, it just irks me a certain someone says Almaty has no experience, when it clearly has hosted more winter events then Beijing has.

I think we all know what's at stake here at this point. Does the IOC want the more prominent city in the more prominent country that knows how to handle a major sports event, just not ones specific to the Winter Olympics. Or do they want the city/country that has more facilities already in place, albeit in a location that is inconsequential to the rest of the world. I said it of Sochi that it was be an Olympics that would quickly fade into history after it was over, and that's largely what happened. If not for the political issues with Russia and the constant attention on Putin, it would have been lost even moreso. That's would I think the IOC would fear from a 2022 Olympics.. for them to put it in a location that most of the world doesn't know about and couldn't care less about, both during and after the Olympics. I just can't see them putting an Olympics in Kazakhstan, even in the weakest of weak fields like this.

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I think we all know what's at stake here at this point. Does the IOC want the more prominent city in the more prominent country that knows how to handle a major sports event, just not ones specific to the Winter Olympics. Or do they want the city/country that has more facilities already in place, albeit in a location that is inconsequential to the rest of the world. I said it of Sochi that it was be an Olympics that would quickly fade into history after it was over, and that's largely what happened. If not for the political issues with Russia and the constant attention on Putin, it would have been lost even moreso. That's would I think the IOC would fear from a 2022 Olympics.. for them to put it in a location that most of the world doesn't know about and couldn't care less about, both during and after the Olympics. I just can't see them putting an Olympics in Kazakhstan, even in the weakest of weak fields like this.

Well, the WOGs have gone to very unknown locations - Squaw Valley, Grenoble was a gray, industrial city...not even one of France's top resorts...neither was Albertville. Nagano too, was nothing except the developer had connections with the Japanese royal family...and you know how JAS loved to lick royal asses. There might be enough of non-friends to China to just swing it Almaty's way.

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I said it of Sochi that it was be an Olympics that would quickly fade into history after it was over, and that's largely what happened. If not for the political issues with Russia and the constant attention on Putin, it would have been lost even moreso. That's would I think the IOC would fear from a 2022 Olympics.. for them to put it in a location that most of the world doesn't know about and couldn't care less about, both during and after the Olympics. I just can't see them putting an Olympics in Kazakhstan, even in the weakest of weak fields like this.

Because Beijing had such a significant legacy following the 2008 Olympics. Done nothing about the air pollution, but apparently they'll fix it up temporarily in the lead up to 2022. Wonderful plan. Empty and abandoned venues. (at least as of early last year). Plus there is 6 more permanent venues to be built, just for the games. Hosting majority of the events in a city we've never heard of, which is 200km away. Yes 200km, talk about distance issues..

Ug, I don't know why I bother.

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Well, the WOGs have gone to very unknown locations - Squaw Valley, Grenoble was a gray, industrial city...not even one of France's top resorts...neither was Albertville. Nagano too, was nothing except the developer had connections with the Japanese royal family...and you know how JAS loved to lick royal asses. There might be enough of non-friends to China to just swing it Almaty's way.

So you're comparing the U.S., France & Japan to the like of Kazazhkstan? And we should know how Nagano got the edge, was with all those expensive "gifts" from the bid committee to kiss JAS & the rest of his royal-wannabe a$ses.

Yeah, we've heard the "non-friends" theories before from some others when it came to South Korea's & Japan's 2018/2020 bids respectively. (And some even say that about U.S. bids). So needless to say, this time around it will also just be a sound in the wind. The IOC doesn't have the luxury in this bid cycle to alienate the Chinese.

Are people here still fighting over Almaty's qualifications? Save your brain power guys, the IOC will this summer.

It's just mainly ONE person (see below) who gets all up in arms whenever anyone constructively criticizes the all-wonderful Almaty bid.

Done nothing about the air pollution, but apparently they'll fix it up temporarily in the lead up to 2022. Wonderful plan.

Yeah, bcuz Almaty's air quality is so good, right.

Hosting majority of the events in a city we've never heard of, which is 200km away. Yes 200km, talk about distance issues..

No, it's not the "majority" of events. And again, remind all of is where this no-name *Chinese* city is located. Not to mention, that the anchor city is still the capital of the most populous country on the planet, which now also has the world's top economy. Apples & oranges to say the least.

Ug, I don't know why I bother.

Yeah, IDK why you bother, either.

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But you just said Sochi hadn't hosted anything and yet they "handled things pretty well"........ So Almaty not having "experience" (your words not mine) shouldn't matter? Just going to get off topic for a second. You say Sochi hosted no events yet they scored 5.2-7.2 on Experience from past sports events for 2014. Whilst Almaty scored 4.5-7 in 2022. Despite having hosted the 2011 Winter Asian games and being selected to host or having hosted other events. I wonder how the IOC evaluate that section cause it just dumbfounds me.

But i'm sure Beijing can host a great Olympics, they can just throw billions and billions of dollars at the event like they did for 2008 and have a legacy where the city is filled with air pollution and many venues are empty or were instead turned into a water park.

I know, it just irks me a certain someone says Almaty has no experience, when it clearly has hosted more winter events then Beijing has.

Sochi, Russia

Almaty, Kazakhstan

That's the difference. Sochi handled things well because they had the resources and the political clout of Russia behind them. The narrative behind their bid is that they were trying to build a Winter resort that people would come to for a long time to come after the Olympics (whether they succeed is a different story altogether). I just can't see that happening in Kazakhstan. That's certainly not a knock against them holding Winter sports events, but this is the Olympics. Once every four years. Trying to attract people from all over the world. If the question is which city is more capable of putting on a Winter sports festival, I give that edge to Almaty. But this isn't a Winter sports festival. This is THE Winter sports festival. For that, political influence counts for a lot. Based on that, China is likely to get the edge over Kazakhstan IMO.

I think we all know what's at stake here at this point. Does the IOC want the more prominent city in the more prominent country that knows how to handle a major sports event, just not ones specific to the Winter Olympics. Or do they want the city/country that has more facilities already in place, albeit in a location that is inconsequential to the rest of the world. I said it of Sochi that it was be an Olympics that would quickly fade into history after it was over, and that's largely what happened. If not for the political issues with Russia and the constant attention on Putin, it would have been lost even moreso. That's would I think the IOC would fear from a 2022 Olympics.. for them to put it in a location that most of the world doesn't know about and couldn't care less about, both during and after the Olympics. I just can't see them putting an Olympics in Kazakhstan, even in the weakest of weak fields like this.

Let's just remember People. Summer Olympics are much bigger then the Winter Olympics, which is much bigger than minor events. Beijing hosted the Summer Olympics and they delivered. They can certainly host the Winter Olympics. Sochi had no experience before the 2014 Winter Olympics, so Beijing having no Winter experience, is irrelevant.

Let's remember and be realistic, if Oslo, Stockholm and Krakow didn't withdraw, Almaty would have been eliminated by now. Almaty is only a Candidate City because of a lack of bidders left. Almaty have nice Venues, but that is it. China is the most populated Country in the World. The IOC will choose Beijing.

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Beijing has the experience of hosting the much larger scale Summer Olympic Games and they have hosted Grand Prix Figure Skating for years as well as the 2014 Men's World Curling Championships, so to say they are without experience hosting winter events is incorrect, they do. There's no doubt in my mind that assuming they win this bid, that they'll work to put on a decent Winter Olympic Games. That being said though, they're not without their problems, they've got to come up with solution to fix their pollution problem, not just temporarily, but they've got to find ways to fix it permanently. The 200 KM distance between Beijing and Zhangjiakou is a bit much (even with the new high speed rail they would build) and they clearly have a legacy issue from Beijing, that being said though they are tried and tested.

Almaty though does at least have a bit of experience with the Asian Winter Games from 2011 and they'll be hosting the 2017 Universiade, so it's not like they have zero experience. They have a solid venue plan and it's a hell of a lot more compact than the Beijing bid. Again though, major smog issues in Almaty, Human Rights issues and run by a dictator, both are not without their detractors but I think either one of this point is your damned if you do and damned if you don't. Beijing probably still wins this in a runaway, but Almaty is going to at least make them work for it.

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Well, the WOGs have gone to very unknown locations - Squaw Valley, Grenoble was a gray, industrial city...not even one of France's top resorts...neither was Albertville. Nagano too, was nothing except the developer had connections with the Japanese royal family...and you know how JAS loved to lick royal asses. There might be enough of non-friends to China to just swing it Almaty's way.

They haven't gone to unknown COUNTRIES though. And Kazakhstan is pretty darn unknown. Like I said, Almaty could offer up the most beautiful and enticing setting, but at the end of the day, it's still in Kazakhstan. I don't think there's enough sentiment out there to sway enough voters away from China and onto Kazakhstan for Almaty to pull it off.

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Because Beijing had such a significant legacy following the 2008 Olympics. Done nothing about the air pollution, but apparently they'll fix it up temporarily in the lead up to 2022. Wonderful plan. Empty and abandoned venues. (at least as of early last year). Plus there is 6 more permanent venues to be built, just for the games. Hosting majority of the events in a city we've never heard of, which is 200km away. Yes 200km, talk about distance issues..

Ug, I don't know why I bother.

Right, forgot the air pollution again. Big problem..

smog-almaty-kazhakstan.jpg.662x0_q100_cr

..for Almaty

No one is going to say that Beijing doesn't have issues with air pollution, but to use that against Beijing as if Almaty is that much stronger in that category is ridiculous.

Again, China vs. Kazakhstan. Giant douche vs. turd sandwich. That's what this comes down to. We know about the legacy issues and the distances and the less than appealing plan. This is still the IOC, Agenda 2020 be damned. If they're enticed by the thought of putting a major ski resort within shouting distance of 1 of the biggest cities in the biggest country in the world, they're going to be interested in that. And when the only alternative is to put the Olympic Winter Games in a relatively unknown central Asian nation, the IOC just has to hold their nose and hope it's only a minor disaster, not a complete disaster.

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They haven't gone to unknown COUNTRIES though. And Kazakhstan is pretty darn unknown.

Well, what "unknown" (by your definition) countries have bid before? There's always a first time; and at one time, Japan, So. Korea and even Australia were "unknown" countries. A number of IOCers have shown up at the Winter Universiade in 2013 and whatever other int'l champiosnhips have been hosted there. I think you're wrong to write off Almaty right away. They could pull an Atlanta and you'd be eating your words. If I were an IOC'er, I'd pick Almaty becuz I am so sick and tired of the pushy Chinese who, as I understand, left a bitter taste in the mouth of the IOC after 2008--even though that was never publicly disclosed.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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Well, what "unknown" (by your definition) countries have bid before? There's always a first time; and at one time, Japan, So. Korea and even Australia were "unknown" countries. A number of IOCers have shown up at the Winter Universiade in 2013 and whatever other int'l champiosnhips have been hosted there. I think you're wrong to write off Almaty right away. They could pull an Atlanta and you'd be eating your words.

The question isn't what countries have bid before. It's what countries have WON before. Japan wasn't an unknown country (and Tokyo certainly not an unknown city) when they got 1964 and then Winter 1972. A country like Australia may be isolated in its corner of the world, but there's an intrigue for a lot of people that make it a destination they want to visit and that certainly was the case from Sydney.

Specific to Winter hosts, sure Nagano was not a known entity outside of Japan (although it's still anchored by Tokyo). Ditto for Lillehammer with Oslo. That's the difference there though. Does the IOC want to put a spotlight on Kazakhstan in hopes of having a lasting effect on Winter sports? That's not a knock against the country or their ability to put on an Olympics. At least with China, maybe you're building something in a larger and more prominent country and there's value in that to the IOC. I don't think they get the same value out of Kazakhstan in that regard.

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I think you guy are way too focused on "practical" issues. I don't think the IOC has any worries about either Kazakhstan or China being able to host. They have money, they have power... and worries about "experience" can be made up with consultants and the IOC itself. Existing venues (or lack thereof) doesn't seem to matter to the IOC. From a practcial standpoing, both choices are fine.

It's a matter of where does the IOC want to throw its big party? Where do the VIPs and their families want to go? Which markets do the sponsors care about? Where is there more money to be made?

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Well, it's the delegates from the non-winter countries who'd probably decide anyway. Wasn't that issue in the Agenda 2020 list -- having NON-winter countries decide the site of a WOG?

All the more reason to think they'll pick China over Kazakhstan if those not as in tune with the winter sports world are making the decision. Because..

It's a matter of where does the IOC want to throw its big party? Where do the VIPs and their families want to go? Which markets do the sponsors care about? Where is there more money to be made?

This. They put an Olympics in a remotely, fairly unknown city in Russia hoping they would build it into a destination spot with the Olympics' stamp on it. Whether or not that happened may be a cautionary tale, but along similar lines, do they want to potentially plant that seed in China or in Kazakhstan? I know that Almaty already has some sports infrastructure working and perhaps that's preferrable to building something from scratch, but not if it's in a location most people wouldn't choose to visit.

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Kazakhstan has been working on its international profile for some time and I wouldn't discount their chances.

Firstly, it gives the IOC the opportunity to award the Games to a relatively stable Muslim majority country that has good relations with most of the world and certainly with the USA, Russia and China. It's a cultural crossroads between East and West and I would expect them to make much of that. The IOC can also be seen to be spreading the Games to different areas.

They are currently experimenting with a period of visa free travel for a limited time to promote tourism.

They promote themselves a lot in international leadership circles. At work I get various glossy magazines aimed at diplomats and leaders and there are often features on Kazakhstan paid for by the government.

And as has been mentioned, they do have hosting experience.

It's not an ideal host by any means but I would prefer it over Beijing and I think they might be seen as the least worst option by many.

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I think you're wrong to write off Almaty right away. They could pull an Atlanta and you'd be eating your words.

Well, even in this case, we're still talking about the U.S. & they were also gunning to be a repeat host country only 12 years after L.A. So if we want to draw parallels, that still favors China in this case than it does Kazakstan. And there were also several other attributing elements to Atlanta's bid that were strong enough to win over the IOC.

and you'd be eating your words.

You mean like you with Krakow.

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Firstly, it gives the IOC the opportunity to award the Games to a relatively stable Muslim majority country that has good relations with most of the world and certainly with the USA, Russia and China. It's a cultural crossroads between East and West and I would expect them to make much of that. The IOC can also be seen to be spreading the Games to different areas.

You mean like the IOC "spread" the Games for 2020? If the "crossroads" angle didn't work for Istanbul, it's certainly not gonna work in this instance.

Kazakstan is relatively "stable" for the time being bcuz it's been ruled by the same dictator for over two decades. But what would happened if he were no longer in power, since there isn't a sure follower, which is a plausibility within the next decade. If Erdogan made the IOC shiver, surely Nezerbaiyev would make them shudder. So I don't see the IOC gambling with this, 'spreading' the Games or not.

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You mean like you with Krakow.

How? :blink: Krakow never officially became a Candidate city. And that was an internal combustion -- not an IOC loss.

Kazakstan is relatively "stable" for the time being bcuz it's been ruled by the same dictator for over two decades. But what would happened if he were no longer in power, since there isn't a sure follower, which is a plausibility within the next decade. If Erdogan made the IOC shiver, surely Nezerbaiyev would make them shudder. So I don't see the IOC gambling with this, 'spreading' the Games or not.

The Games have survived Hitler, Brezhnev, Tito and Putin. The Chinese Communist Party's had their fling with the Games; time to try a new Dictator. B)

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