Jump to content

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 413
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

So, you think the IOC is lying to everyone with their short list??? The don't believe Almaty can deliver, but are spreading lies and forcing Almaty to spend lot of money so they can say they have thre

Speakout out against injustice and discrimination = "shove it down their throats". PS - Anyone else find it amusing that men opposed to gay rights seem to always use that expression.

^not that it matters, since it's the fricken Youth Olympics, but does Singapore actually persecute gays though, under their books? And by that, I mean severe jail time, etc. I'm sure even there, gays don't live under constant & severe repression like they do in most Islamic (& other backwoods) countries.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

^not that it matters, since it's the fricken Youth Olympics, but does Singapore actually persecute gays though, under their books? And by that, I mean severe jail time, etc. I'm sure even there, gays don't live under constant & severe repression like they do in most Islamic (& other backwoods) countries.

Exactly.

Link to post
Share on other sites

^not that it matters, since it's the fricken Youth Olympics, but does Singapore actually persecute gays though, under their books? And by that, I mean severe jail time, etc. I'm sure even there, gays don't live under constant & severe repression like they do in most Islamic (& other backwoods) countries.

It does matter. Homophobic legislation is about much more than sex. What message does it send out about tolerance, acceptance and celebrating diversity? These issues are as relevant for kids as they are for adults. And homophobic bullying continues to be a serious reality, sometimes even resulting in suicide. What message does that give young people who are GLBT or questioning? It tells them that they don't matter.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

^not that it matters, since it's the fricken Youth Olympics, but does Singapore actually persecute gays though, under their books? And by that, I mean severe jail time, etc. I'm sure even there, gays don't live under constant & severe repression like they do in most Islamic (& other backwoods) countries.

Yes it does matter- there are not 'degrees' of being illegal- being guilty of illegal activity in a one-party state like Singapore is serious. It can stop you getting jobs, caring for children, attaining political office etc...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it does matter- there are not 'degrees' of being illegal- being guilty of illegal activity in a one-party state like Singapore is serious. It can stop you getting jobs, caring for children, attaining political office etc...

But people also have to accept that there are STILL many age-old cultures where the LGBT lifestyle is NOT and probably will never be acceptable. And pushing it into their faces can be counter-productive and create an even stronger backlash. Just avoid the cultures and the lands where LGBT is taboo and anathema. Simple. No one's forcing anyone to go there and/or spend one's money and time there.

Link to post
Share on other sites

But people also have to accept that there are STILL many age-old cultures where the LGBT lifestyle is NOT and probably will never be acceptable. And pushing it into their faces can be counter-productive and create an even stronger backlash. Just avoid the cultures and the lands where LGBT is taboo and anathema. Simple. No one's forcing anyone to go there and/or spend one's money and time there.

What about all my gay friends who are Singaporeans (I lived there for 5 years) and don't have a choice but to live there? I watched as they missed out on promotions, had their business threatened and shut down, were refused 'permits' for publications and meetings. You can choose to avoid it, the IOC can choose to go there for all I care, but lets not pretend these laws don't severely impact on the lives of innocent people.

And it doesn't hurt to have some compassion and hope for a better world.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

What about all my gay friends who are Singaporeans (I lived there for 5 years) and don't have a choice but to live there? I watched as they missed out on promotions, had their business threatened and shut down, were refused 'permits' for publications and meetings. You can choose to avoid it, the IOC can choose to go there for all I care, but lets not pretend these laws don't severely impact on the lives of innocent people.

And it doesn't hurt to have some compassion and hope for a better world.

Still does not give us the right to shove it down their throats and make the response worse.

Link to post
Share on other sites

But people also have to accept that there are STILL many age-old cultures where the LGBT lifestyle is NOT and probably will never be acceptable. And pushing it into their faces can be counter-productive and create an even stronger backlash. Just avoid the cultures and the lands where LGBT is taboo and anathema. Simple. No one's forcing anyone to go there and/or spend one's money and time there.

“Any form of discrimination with regard to a country or a person on grounds of race, religion, politics, gender or otherwise is incompatible with belonging to the Olympic movement.”

If the IOC is going to continue to preach that message, then they should start acting on it. I get the animosity some people have towards Westerners who think we're trying to force our culture and our ways of life on the rest of the world. But don't have that message in your organization's principles and then award your event to a country like Russia. And there was homophobia (I would think of a different word, but that's what it is) there well before they were awarded the Olympics and with LGBT policies came to the forefront for the rest of the world.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Still does not give us the right to shove it down their throats and make the response worse.

Speakout out against injustice and discrimination = "shove it down their throats".

PS - Anyone else find it amusing that men opposed to gay rights seem to always use that expression.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

^not that it matters, since it's the fricken Youth Olympics, but does Singapore actually persecute gays though, under their books? And by that, I mean severe jail time, etc. I'm sure even there, gays don't live under constant & severe repression like they do in most Islamic (& other backwoods) countries.

Firstly, stop creating Islamaphobia.

Secondly Russian gays live under constant and severe repression and are NOT an Islamic country.

Lastly, Russia hosted the 2014 Olympics fine even though they have well lets just say multiple gay issues...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/29/kazakhstan-pushkin-gay-kiss-poster

A court in Almaty has ordered an advertising agency to pay damages for designing a controversial poster showing two 19th-century cultural icons kissing.

The complaint was brought by a group of musicians who claimed that the poster, which shows Kazakh composer Kurmangazy Sagyrbayuly and Russian poet Alexander Pushkin in an embrace, had hurt their feelings.

Yesterday’s ruling follows a legal battle in August, where it was agreed that the poster would not be shown in public.

Article is no longer available to read but thanks for posting part of it.

It is indeed sad that in this day and age we can't see same sex couples kissing on posters. Earlier this year I remember here in Brisbane the council removed posters of two men kissing on a beach deeming it too racy.

I'm not an expert on this issue and i'm also not supporting the decision but just curious. Why did they make two celebrated cultural icons kiss and put it on a billboard? So it wasn't two current gay men but instead celebrated people photoshopped to be made gay? I mean I can imagine uproar if a billboard was put up of say Tony Abbott kissing a man or Hillary Clinton kissing a woman.

Ok just read up on it and see that it's inspired from something else by my point still stands. From what I can gather, the people that reported it first said the poster "hurt their feelings" which I can understand... musicians who see a composer that was a cultural icon being photoshopped kissing another man.

Link to post
Share on other sites

“Any form of discrimination with regard to a country or a person on grounds of race, religion, politics, gender or otherwise is incompatible with belonging to the Olympic movement.”

If the IOC is going to continue to preach that message, then they should start acting on it. I get the animosity some people have towards Westerners who think we're trying to force our culture and our ways of life on the rest of the world. But don't have that message in your organization's principles and then award your event to a country like Russia. And there was homophobia (I would think of a different word, but that's what it is) there well before they were awarded the Olympics and with LGBT policies came to the forefront for the rest of the world.

why ioc should disturb the host government only because of this lgbt stuff anyway? did they ban lgbt people to watch the olympics? aren't deciding the lgbt policies should be the privacy of the corresponding nation itself? why the ioc can't get the good reason why russia ban lgbt in their nation? can't ioc respect the culture of each host nation and their reason for banning lgbt in their territories? what's wrong with them anyway???

Link to post
Share on other sites

Still does not give us the right to shove it down their throats and make the response worse.

Speakout out against injustice and discrimination = "shove it down their throats".

PS - Anyone else find it amusing that men opposed to gay rights seem to always use that expression.

I always like to refer this to when people when they talk about "shoving it down their throats"

http://madystacy.tumblr.com/post/98250403160/i-dont-have-a-problem-with-gay-people-i-just-dont

Link to post
Share on other sites

Still does not give us the right to shove it down their throats and make the response worse.

I'm a little confused here so maybe you can explain it to me.. what exactly is "it" that we're supposedly shoving down their throats (speaking of over-used expressions). Or that we're worried about the response. Again, far be it from Westerners to tell the rest of the world how to live, but how is persecution and discrimination supposed to be acceptable? And we're not without plenty of it here, but that certainly doesn't make it right. I think I asked the same thing around Sochi and never really got a straight answer. What is it about an LGBT lifestyle that people find so offensive or harmful to the point that a country like Russia passes a law making such actions illegal? The more sensible thing someone told me was that years of religious teachings are what have altered people's mindsets and only not are we realizing the error in that thinking.

I don't want to spend too much time on a soapbox here, and in an effort to not turn this into a political discussion and to point it back towards the Olympics.. clearly the IOC has some intentions (which are different from their actions) to take a stand against discrimination. Sucks for them that the next host of the Olympics they're going to choose doesn't really fit the bill on that one. But so long as they make a point that this is one of their core principles, whether they choose to act on it or not, it's not shoving it down people's throats to ask the people and the countries they're partnered with. Easier said than done and this being the IOC, if it's inconvenient for them, it's not going to happen. Doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it as if it's someone else's problems. If the Olympics is supposed to be a worldwide event that is inclusionary to virtually everyone, it doesn't seem like too much to ask to take a stand against it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

why ioc should disturb the host government only because of this lgbt stuff anyway? did they ban lgbt people to watch the olympics? aren't deciding the lgbt policies should be the privacy of the corresponding nation itself? why the ioc can't get the good reason why russia ban lgbt in their nation? can't ioc respect the culture of each host nation and their reason for banning lgbt in their territories? what's wrong with them anyway???

When you say "this lgbt stuff," do you understand you're talking about a government taking basic rights away from people based on their sexual orientation? Aside from how the Olympics or the IOC are involved, are you okay with that? You're asking the same question I am. Banning lgbt is not like make drugs or alcohol illegal. It's essentially saying it's a crime to be openly gay (I know it's not as simple as that, but it's not something that a government should be trying to regulate). And as it pertains to the Olympics, it's in direct contradiction with 1 of their core principles. Again, it may be something they say they care about but that they're not going to confront the big bad Russians about it, but it also shouldn't be something where Russia's private affairs aren't scrutinized. Yes, the IOC chose Russia. They knew what they were getting so it's not like they can so easily backtrack and tell us it's not compatible with their ideals. However, if the IOC is giving Russia the world stage and a chance to promote their country to the rest of the planet, it's not such a terrible thing for the IOC and whomever else is involved to speak out against injustices regarding that nation's government. Their LGBT laws are a huge injustice. And if I'm going to be told that my hope for the people of Russia is to live in a country free of discrimination is shoving my viewpoint down their throats, then this is a pretty fucked up world we live in.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I find the idea that LGBT rights are "private" of a "nation" actually funny in a way.

It's precisely because sexual orientation is a private issue that a nation (its lawmakers) should not deal with it.

You could also say that a nation , like Russia, invited the world/IOC into their home for two weeks, so if the guests see some dirty spots in the house, then the hosts shouldn't be surprised to be confronted with them.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

“Any form of discrimination with regard to a country or a person on grounds of race, religion, politics, gender or otherwise is incompatible with belonging to the Olympic movement.”

If the IOC is going to continue to preach that message, then they should start acting on it. I get the animosity some people have towards Westerners who think we're trying to force our culture and our ways of life on the rest of the world. But don't have that message in your organization's principles and then award your event to a country like Russia. And there was homophobia (I would think of a different word, but that's what it is) there well before they were awarded the Olympics and with LGBT policies came to the forefront for the rest of the world.

Yes, they should. But we all know it's not a perfect world. If the whole IOC agenda were based on LGBT rights, then maybe they should just bypass 2022 if it were on that basis alone. But the Olympics are not about sexual-orientation. There are the Gay and OutGames for that.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
Link to post
Share on other sites

You could also say that a nation , like Russia, invited the world/IOC into their home for two weeks, so if the guests see some dirty spots in the house, then the hosts shouldn't be surprised to be confronted with them.

I don't think it's quite that simple or cut-and-dried as that. One could also say that when I invite you into my house, I have my rules -- which I do. If you don't like them, then please leave. And as a guest, I am NOT there to tell my host how to act anymore than if s/he reciprocates would I appreciate him/her telling me how to conduct my business. There are always 2 sides to a story.

And well, folks, Russia, is hosting 2018 again. So if folks are truly unhappy with that, then herculean efforts should be made to change the situation since FIFA won't.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

"I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states. I cannot sit idly by in Atlanta and not be
concerned about what happens in Birmingham. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an
inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly. Never
again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea."

MLK, Letter from a Birmingham Jail

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Firstly, stop creating Islamaphobia.

Secondly Russian gays live under constant and severe repression and are NOT an Islamic country.

Lastly, Russia hosted the 2014 Olympics fine even though they have well lets just say multiple gay issues...

Excuse me? How am I "creating islamaphobia"?! Do gays (& also women, for that matter) don't live in very unfavorable conditions in most Islamic countries (which is the part that you highlighted from my post)? Well in case you didn't know, they do. So please stop with your silly, unwarranted accusations, as usual.

Plus, it's not a matter of Russia having hosted the Winter Olympics "fine", but as some others have already noted, that if the IOC is going to be preaching equality in theIr Charter, then they need to start putting those words into action, instead of being mere lip-service on paper.

And I'm also very well aware that Russia is "not" an Islamic country. That's why I said "& other 'backwood' countries" (in parenthesis). So please brush up on your reading comprehension skills as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, they should. But we all know it's not a perfect world. If the whole IOC agenda were based on LGBT rights, then maybe they should just bypass 2022 if it were on that basis alone. But the Olympics are not about sexual-orientation. There are the Gay and OutGames for that.

Oy. baron, with all due respect here, every time you bring this up, you continue to miss the mark. Badly. This isn't an issue of sexual orientation. It's about discrimination. And when you bring the Gay Games, what are you implying? That LGBT athletes have that as a platform, so there's no place for them at the Olympics? I just looked at the Wikipedia page for the OutGames, this is what is says.. The World Outgames are a sporting and cultural event hosted by the gay community. The Outgames are open to all who wish to participate, without regard to sexual orientation.

LGBT athletes (and non-athletes a lot) just want to live in a world where they are not persecuted for their life choices. I still don't understand what this fear is about that LGBT will somehow flaunt their sexuality in front of other people and how that's so inherently wrong (as opposed to heterosexuals doing the same thing). These athletes aren't asking for a platform for their lifestyle. They're not trying to throw it in the faces of others who might disagree with it. All they want is acceptance. They are not the ones making it about sexual orientation. That's the fault of others who simply can't stand the idea of how they live their life. And then you have countries like Russia who think that it's so damning that they need to pass a law to protect children from an LGBT lifestyle. As if they need to separate the 2 from interacting.

That's not what the Olympics are about. They're supposed to be anti-discriminatory. For you to say "there are the Gay Games for them" would be like saying if someone is atheist, they have no place in the Olympics and that they should have their own competition. People from all walks of life compete in the Olympics. LGBT athletes are not trying to make a statement. They're not asking for a platform in front of the world. They simply want to not be discriminated against. Is that too much for them to ask?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

LGBT athletes (and non-athletes a lot) just want to live in a world where they are not persecuted for their life choices.

Just for the record, it's not a "choice". Why would anyone "choose" to be discriminated, persecuted & downright hated in some cases. It's who one is. It's not something you learn or aquire, especially when so many want to "oppress" the matter. Just like the color of ones skin, eyes or hair, or how tall or short you are, you're just born that way.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think it's quite that simple or cut-and-dried as that. One could also say that when I invite you into my house, I have my rules -- which I do. If you don't like them, then please leave. And as a guest, I am NOT there to tell my host how to act anymore than if s/he reciprocates would I appreciate him/her telling me how to conduct my business. There are always 2 sides to a story.

Yes, but this analogy you're using is also pretty cut-&-dry. Yeah, you have your own rules in your own house, & I agree if one doesn't like them, then one should leave. But you also don't invite people to come to your home on the false premise that you're going to obide by a set of principles (in this case, the IOC Charter), only to once your party has started, you then say, "hey listen people. I'm going to allow "only the sexy people" to jam at my house. The rest of you, can just leave or be shoved out the door"! That's the big difference here.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Oy. baron, with all due respect here, every time you bring this up, you continue to miss the mark. Badly. This isn't an issue of sexual orientation. It's about discrimination. And when you bring the Gay Games, what are you implying? That LGBT athletes have that as a platform, so there's no place for them at the Olympics? I just looked at the Wikipedia page for the OutGames, this is what is says.. The World Outgames are a sporting and cultural event hosted by the gay community. The Outgames are open to all who wish to participate, without regard to sexual orientation.

LGBT athletes (and non-athletes a lot) just want to live in a world where they are not persecuted for their life choices. I still don't understand what this fear is about that LGBT will somehow flaunt their sexuality in front of other people and how that's so inherently wrong (as opposed to heterosexuals doing the same thing). These athletes aren't asking for a platform for their lifestyle. They're not trying to throw it in the faces of others who might disagree with it. All they want is acceptance. They are not the ones making it about sexual orientation. That's the fault of others who simply can't stand the idea of how they live their life. And then you have countries like Russia who think that it's so damning that they need to pass a law to protect children from an LGBT lifestyle. As if they need to separate the 2 from interacting.

That's not what the Olympics are about. They're supposed to be anti-discriminatory. For you to say "there are the Gay Games for them" would be like saying if someone is atheist, they have no place in the Olympics and that they should have their own competition. People from all walks of life compete in the Olympics. LGBT athletes are not trying to make a statement. They're not asking for a platform in front of the world. They simply want to not be discriminated against. Is that too much for them to ask?

WRONG. Please stop twisting my words and stance. There are ALWAYS at least 2 sides to every story, Q -- and there isn't one right or wrong side. Besides, what is the world going to do if 2022 again goes to either of the non-very LGBT-friendly nations?? Sue the IOC? :rolleyes: I mean, yeah, boycott the IOC and the Games...but those ploys have also been tried and not worked. It's just choose your option. I just don't get too worked up by this issue very much.

Yes, but this analogy you're using is also pretty cut-&-dry. Yeah, you have your own rules in your own house, & I agree if one doesn't like them, then one should leave. But you also don't invite people to come to your home on the false premise that you're going to obide by a set of principles (in this case, the IOC Charter), only to once your party has started, you then say, "hey listen people. I'm going to allow "only the sexy people" to jam at my house. The rest of you, can just leave or be shoved out the door"! That's the big difference here.

Then the IOC and its chosen host cities/nations should DUKE it out for greater clarity on the whole LGBT issue. Or just do what Russia did for Sochi, pay lip service for the 2 weeks the Games are on -- just to humor the IOC; and then back to business after the old party-gnomes of Lausanne have decamped for the next party. ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...