Kraków 2022

[FYI]

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So that leaves ONE option: political lobbying. Try to convince the IOC that 7 hours isn't that big a deal.

Good luck. It ain't happening.

Right, I'd forgotten you can predict the casting ballots for 100-plus individuals. And it's always about political lobbying anyway.

[zekekelso]

And that's if fog, icing of planes, etc., don't muck up the schedule at either or both ends of the trip. Yeah, the press missed their story; the IOC president couldn't leave Are for his trip back to Stockholm to preside at pre-arranged events, etc., etc.

Again, unlike you, the Sweded know how to move people in winter. How many days last year were people unable to move between Are and Stockholm?

When you are making up imaginary problems to emphasize how big a problem is, that's a good sign the problem isn't that big.

[FYI]

Why? From a logistic standpoint, there's no differnce between having equstrian/sailing/football events far from the stadium, and having the Alpine events far away. If they aren't a make-or-brake issue for the SOG (and they clearly aren't,), why would they be for the WOG?

I think Athensfan "is grasping at 'any defense' he can think of" against Stockholm.

[Athensfan]

I'm not "grasping at any defense" anymore than Baron is by always bringing up that "irrelevant" Melbourne/Stockholm 1956 Summer comparison for Krakow's 'defense'.

I think both arguments are flimsy and I think both of you intelligent gentlemen already know that despite your ardent protestations.

[Athensfan]

I agree that the IOC can do anything they like. If a bid captures their imagination, they can certainly make exceptions.

However, that doesn't mean that all precedent goes out the window. 7 hours between ice and snow events will result in dramatically bifurcated Games. I have a very hard time imagining the IOC falling so deeply in love with Sweden that they don't care about the logistical ramifications.

As for Krakow, it really depends on the extent to which they rely on Slovakia. If we're just talking about downhill and Poland is the official host country, it's probably doable. If we're talking about a whole lot more than downhill and both the Slovak and Polish NOCs are equally present at every stage of the bid, I think it won't get off the ground.

That Melbourne analogy is pure silliness and so is Beijing. Neither of those were truly bi-national and both of them were stop gap solutions.

[Athensfan]

Why? From a logistic standpoint, there's no differnce between having equstrian/sailing/football events far from the stadium, and having the Alpine events far away. If they aren't a make-or-brake issue for the SOG (and they clearly aren't,), why would they be for the WOG?

And for a non-logistical "atmosphere" standpoing, I would think moving the alpine events out of town would be *less* of an issue since the alpine events are always out of town. The downhill skiiers never join in with all the world meeting in one place, bla, bla, bla.

There is one primary reason:

Sailing and equestrian events make up a tiny percentage of the Summer Games. By contrast, alpine events make up a huge portion of the Winter program. It would be a shame to disqualify an otherwise strong candidate because they can't host only one sport on the Olympic program within the immediate vicinity. It IS reasonable to disqualify a city when they can't host nearly half the program without asking everyone to drive 7 HOURS to a totally different part of the country.

[FYI]

Okay, Athensfan. If according to you, Stockholm is a no-go, & Almaty truly isn't your "horse" in this race. And Krakow could be a no or a go, depending how much Slovakia is involved (which I agree with, btw), & according to Baron; Oslo is a "been there, done that". And Lviv is really a non-starter & I see Beijing as an insurance policy really, who, in your honest opinion right now, do you see getting the 2022 Winter Olympic Games then.

[Athensfan]

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So that leaves ONE option: political lobbying. Try to convince the IOC that 7 hours isn't that big a deal.

Good luck. It ain't happening.

Right, I'd forgotten you can predict the casting ballots for 100-plus individuals. And it's always about political lobbying anyway.

Not sure what to make of this post.

Obviously I'm expressing my opinion. I'll openly acknowledge my mistaken judgment of the IOC if they select the Stockholm/Are bid in its current form.

Yes, lobbying plays a role, but it's not the only factor. No amount of lobbying in the world would help the likes of Tulsa. It certainly didn't help Madrid and they're reputedly experts at it. There comes a point where a bid is so deeply flawed that no amount of "spin" can compensate.

How exactly are the Swedes going to convince the IOC that the 7 hours travel time is a good idea?

[FYI]

It IS reasonable to disqualify a city when they can't host nearly half the program without asking everyone to drive 7 HOURS to a totally different part of the country.

From this early point though, not the entire Alpine program will be in Are. Much like Slovakia's involvement with Krakow, depending on how much will actually be in Are could be the determining factor.

[Athensfan]

I think Athensfan "is grasping at 'any defense' he can think of" against Stockholm.

I have nothing against Stockholm and I'm not campaigning for any other candidate. I just don't think traveling 7 hours to the Alpine events is acceptable. I answered the sailing/equestrian issue above.

[FYI]

Yes, lobbying plays a role, but it's not the only factor. No amount of lobbying in the world would help the likes of Tulsa. It certainly didn't help Madrid and they're reputedly experts at it. There comes a point where a bid is so deeply flawed that no amount of "spin" can compensate.

Oh, c'mon now. You can't honestly compare with a straight face the likes of Tulsa with Stockholm, can you. And as far as Madrid goes, I think most can agree that Madrid wasn't compelling at all. Unlike Madrid & Spain, Stockholm & Sweden aren't facing a stumbling economy to stage much more expensive Summer Games. Unlike Spain, Sweden hasn't hosted an Olympics in over 101 years. And again unlike Spain, Sweden has never hosted a Winter Olympic Games when they're a winter sports power. Your two examples there are really off the mark, to say the least.

[Athensfan]

Oh, c'mon now. You can't honestly compare with a straight face the likes of Tulsa with Stockholm, can you. And as far as Madrid goes, I think most can agree that Madrid wasn't compelling at all. Unlike Madrid & Spain, Stockholm & Sweden aren't facing a stumbling economy to stage much more expensive Summer Games. Unlike Spain, Sweden hasn't hosted an Olympics in over 101 years. And again unlike Spain, Sweden has never hosted a Winter Olympic Games when they're a winter sports power. Your two examples there are really off the mark, to say the least.

I brought up Tulsa as an extreme example that demonstrates the need to draw the line somewhere. Lobbying helps, but it can't work miracles. I don't think Stockholm is on a par with Tulsa. Of course not.

I do think the Stockholm situation is vaguely similar to Madrid. A respected NOC offers up a weak bid, but nobody wants to put a bullet in it. For Madrid it was financing, for Stockholm it's transportation. In my opinion, Stockholm's problem is more severe than Madrid's.

From this early point though, not the entire Alpine program will be in Are. Much like Slovakia's involvement with Krakow, depending on how much will actually be in Are could be the determining factor.

But as we've discussed, this creates problems for the athletes when they want to compete in multiple events or even in a single event (in the case of the super combined).

Equestrians and sailors are not asked to shuttle back and forth 7 hours each way to compete in different disciplines.

You didn't answer my question. How will the Swedes convince the IOC that the 7 hour drive from Stockholm to Are is their best option for 2022?

[markun]

Equestrians and sailors are not asked to shuttle back and forth 7 hours each way to compete in different disciplines.

Why don't you wait and see what is formally proposed rather than complaining about logistics which may or may not be an issue.

[Athensfan]

Why don't you wait and see what is formally proposed rather than complaining about logistics which may or may not be an issue.

I was responding to FYI saying that all the alpine events wouldn't necessarily be in Are and therefore the distance would be more acceptable.

As I understand it there are two options:

All the alpine events are 7 hours away from Stockholm or some of the alpine events are 7 hours away from Stockholm. Neither option sounds like a winning bid.

If forced to choose, I would pick "all" rather than "some" for the sake of the athletes.

[FYI]

I brought up Tulsa as an extreme example that demonstrates the need to draw the line somewhere. Lobbying helps, but it can't work miracles. I don't think Stockholm is on a par with Tulsa. Of course not.

I do think the Stockholm situation is vaguely similar to Madrid. A respected NOC offers up a weak bid, but nobody wants to put a bullet in it. For Madrid it was financing, for Stockholm it's transportation. In my opinion, Stockholm's problem is more severe than Madrid's.

But as we've discussed, this creates problems for the athletes when they want to compete in multiple events or even in a single event (in the case of the super combined).

Equestrians and sailors are not asked to shuttle back and forth 7 hours each way to compete in different disciplines.

You didn't answer my question. How will the Swedes convince the IOC that the 7 hour drive from Stockholm to Are is their best option for 2022?

I brought up Tulsa as an extreme example that demonstrates the need to draw the line somewhere. Lobbying helps, but it can't work miracles. I don't think Stockholm is on a par with Tulsa. Of course not.

Stockholm doesn't need nearly as much of a "miracle" as Tulsa would. This is nothing but hyperbole at this point, IMHO.

I do think the Stockholm situation is vaguely similar to Madrid. A respected NOC offers up a weak bid, but nobody wants to put a bullet in it. For Madrid it was financing, for Stockholm it's transportation. In my opinion, Stockholm's problem is more severe than Madrid's.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, bcuz I don't see the similarities whatsoever. However, I will say that "vaguely similar" is not nearly the same as totally similar or even half-way similar. They're really not that comparable.

Equestrians and sailors are not asked to shuttle back and forth 7 hours each way to compete in different disciplines.

I guess you've already forgotten about the very long-haul from Beijing to Hong Kong already for all those Equestrian people.

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You didn't answer my question. How will the Swedes convince the IOC that the 7 hour drive from Stockholm to Are is their best option for 2022?

Like I've already said, that's something for the Swedes to answer. So IDK why you're asking me a question when I'm not on the bid team to know the answer. But I'm willing to "wait & see" what they propose, much like Krakow/Slovakia, before shutting the door in their face, like some people here wanna already do.

[FYI]

You didn't answer my question.

And you haven't answered mine yet, either. So I'll repost it for you:

Okay, Athensfan. If according to you, Stockholm is a no-go, & Almaty truly isn't your "horse" in this race. And Krakow could be a no or a go, depending how much Slovakia is involved (which I agree with, btw), & according to Baron; Oslo is a "been there, done that". And Lviv is really a non-starter & I see Beijing as an insurance policy really, who, in your honest opinion right now, do you see getting the 2022 Winter Olympic Games then.

Your cue.

[zekekelso]

There is one primary reason:

Sailing and equestrian events make up a tiny percentage of the Summer Games. By contrast, alpine events make up a huge portion of the Winter program. It would be a shame to disqualify an otherwise strong candidate because they can't host only one sport on the Olympic program within the immediate vicinity. It IS reasonable to disqualify a city when they can't host nearly half the program without asking everyone to drive 7 HOURS to a totally different part of the country.

We've drifted out of opinion and into fact. The numbers were posted earlier in the thread. The alpine events aren't anywhere close to "nearly half". As a percentage of the total games, it's very comparable to someplace like Beijing for number of events/athletes more than 500km away.

If this is the basis of your anti-Sweden, you are simply wrong.

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As for Krakow, it really depends on the extent to which they rely on Slovakia. If we're just talking about downhill and Poland is the official host country, it's probably doable.

You do realize we are talking about the same events, don't you? Downhill / Super G.

For Krakow your attitude is "it's only a couple events". For Sweden, it's "nearly half the games". IT'S THE SAME EVENTS!!!

W

[baron-pierreIV]

Oh please. Melbourne/Stockholm 1956 was NOT the IOC's ideal scenario. You know better than that. That all happened AFTER Melbourne was awarded the 1956 Summer Olympics. I don't know why you keep bringing up that trivial point just for Krakow's sake. And Athensfan says I'm the one "grasping at any defense".

Going into the vote in 1949, the IOC at least knew that Argentina was going to be able to host ALL events. I don't think they really knew the extent of Australia's rigidity on their quarantine laws. And nonetheless, Brundage cast the winning vote in favor of the 'Anglo' nation, And because it was Brundage, they have tried to sweep the oversight from view all this time.

But the point is: the 1956 Games were split -- regardless of whether that was known from the start or not. I think they tried NOT to know at the start and hoped they could put pressure on Australia to soften its stance.

[FYI]

Okay, so? "Split" Games can work for Krakow/Jasna, but not for Stockholm/Are? I see no difference here whatsoever, other than your partial "blinders" view for Krakow.

And again, at least in Stockholm's case it's not literally thousands of miles away like it was the case with Melbourne.

[Pixie_Victoria]

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For Madrid it was financing, for Stockholm it's transportation.

Yes, the distance & transportation....And lack of government support....And the fact that it's deja vu.......And..................And.........

It's strange how people can be suspected of anti-swedishness (strange idea) when they're trying to be pragmatic and put olympism first , by the same people who are supporting a particular candidate.

Also, good job athensfan for putting athletes first. That's really how we need to think, and what should lead actions, regarding the olympic games.

[baron-pierreIV]

Okay, so? "Split" Games can work for Krakow/Jasna, but not for Stockholm/Are?

Because Krakow-Jasna are only like 160km apart vs. Stockholm-Are's 528 km distance -- 3x the distance. It's NOT about the borders but the PHYSICAL DISTANCE because these are events played on a TIGHT schedule w/in a 17-day framework. That's why. You can ease travel between 2 clusters by shorter distances vs. impossibly LONG distance and travel times. And this is held in winter, in the diciest of weather conditions--which, needless to be pointed out, physical distances are a more important consideration than for the Summer Games. If that isn't any more basic in an organizer's mind, then I don't know what is?????

Edited November 26, 2013 by baron-pierreIV

[Athensfan]

FYI, I have not forgotten anything about thr equestrians. The equestrians did not have to compete in both Beijing and Hong Kong. The whole competition was in Hong Kong. Unless all Alpine events take place in Are (which will certainly split the Games in half) many of skiers will be forced to commute seven hours each way to get to their various competitions. That's untenable and nothing like Beijing.

[zekekelso]

Unless all Alpine events take place in Are (which will certainly split the Games in half) many of skiers will be forced to commute seven hours each way to get to their various competitions. That's untenable and nothing like Beijing.

No, that would not certainlly split the games in half. Again, this isn't just a matter of fact, it's facts that have already been posted in this thread. Alpine skiing is one of many sports. So even if all the alpine events are in Are, it's not anywhere close to "half".

And if they do split the alpine events, it's not like they would be traveling back and forth. The subset who compete in both the longer and shorter vents would travel one way, once.; First events in Are, then move to Stockholm for the shorter vents... probably with a 3-day break between the events. Also, keep in mind they won't be riding in the back of a bus for seven hours. They have airports, planes, private jets, etc.

[Athensfan]

No, that would not certainlly split the games in half. Again, this isn't just a matter of fact, it's facts that have already been posted in this thread. Alpine skiing is one of many sports. So even if all the alpine events are in Are, it's not anywhere close to "half".

And if they do split the alpine events, it's not like they would be traveling back and forth. The subset who compete in both the longer and shorter vents would travel one way, once.; First events in Are, then move to Stockholm for the shorter vents... probably with a 3-day break between the events. Also, keep in mind they won't be riding in the back of a bus for seven hours. They have airports, planes, private jets, etc.

You're assuming that schedule will work. And what about the super combined?

Skiing may not make up half the Winter program, but it's a huge chunk. Imagine moving athletics 7 hours away from the rest of the Summer Games. I think that's a pretty fair comparison.

[StefanMUC]

There's no need to bring SuperCombined into the argument as we all very well know that this would likely be held at/near the downhill course, not on a special slalom track a few hundred miles away.

I find it almost amusing that there's so much tension building up over the Stockholm and Kraków bid when in the end, it is still the most likely outcome that neither of them will be able to beat Oslo anyway.