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5 hours ago, RuFF said:

Anybody else can see that if you flipped this coin around you would find Quaker and company. It takes some intellect to figure it out though so don't count on him figuring that out. He's the very counterbalance to his claim in a pretty much directly opposite extreme, but he has already justified his behavior in his own post and villanized "LA Boosters". As if the word booster itself doesn't imply anything either.

5 hours ago, RuFF said:

Speaking of silly youthfulness I believe this site itself posted a picture of the Paris 2012 bid team next to the Paris 2024 bid team. It's stupid of Paris, I know, because they figured for 2024 that their team shouldn't be old people, haha. Stupid Paris 2024. Quaker should go blast Paris Boosters in the Paris thread about that....

I know exactly what the word "booster" means and I'll continue to stand by it, especially since there's more than a couple of people who know it and see it.  But no, continue being a poster child for the phrase "confirmation bias" and acting like the kids in the tootsie roll commercial where "whatever it is I think I see." 

 

I'll say it again.. I have no issue whatsoever with an honest assessment and discussion of LA's Olympic bid.  Sometimes that happens here.  But then it's the "everything about LA is so freaking incredible!" where everything is a damn tootsie roll.  The world is in for a treat?  Enough with the rhetoric that an LA Olympic bid is some sort of gift to the world and anyone who disagrees with that and/or talks about Paris also having a good bid should go to the Paris forum to talk about it.

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7 hours ago, Rob. said:

When did this forum become so f*cking snooty? 

On Sept 28, 2015! :P

7 hours ago, Rob. said:

Back in the days of the 2012 race supporters started whole threads on any positive development or portrayal of their city. And we wonder why this forum is so quiet recently when everyone jumps on anything anyone posts????!

This is NOT a "new" phenomenon around here, as that aspect goes. That's par for the course here on Gamesbids. Always has been. And it's mainly just one relatively newish "member" that embarks on such behavior here on this thread.

As for 2012, there were some pretty obnoxious posters here, particularly Leipzig 2012 ones, before the shortlist was announced, that were pretty crude on would "jump" on anyone would declare their city's lack of chances. But again, that's pretty much par for the course on Gamesbids. 

2 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

 

 

Lmfao - classic! :lol:

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24 minutes ago, RuFF said:

That the world is in for a treat if LA hosts is a given. That has nothing to do with Paris, or whether that's a treat or not. Perhaps if you got your Paris booster stick out of your a.... 

 

That's cute.  So since I call you an LA booster, therefore I'm your enemy and I must be a Paris booster.  No, I'm not a booster.  I just happen to think - based on objective, unbiased thinking - that Paris will win.  I base that on more than my knowledge and understanding of 1 city alone.  I don't preach nothing but happy thoughts about Paris.  I actually have a grip on reality, which you have proven time and again you do not.  It is not a *given* that the world is in for a treat is LA hosts.  That is why we like to call an opinion.  Which you are trying to pass off as a fact.  This is what happens when you are biased and completely blind to your own lack of objectivity.

Once again, if you want to have an honest conversation about what LA is and what their Olympic bid is about, I'm happy to do that.  Don't continue to give us the version that's in your head (and ONLY in your head) and anyone who doesn't see the same hallucinations that you do must be wrong.

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7 hours ago, Rob. said:

When did this forum become so f*cking snooty? Back in the days of the 2012 race supporters started whole threads on any positive development or portrayal of their city. And we wonder why this forum is so quiet recently when everyone jumps on anything anyone posts????!

Hah, nostalgia ain't what it used to be!

That's the point I was trying to convey when I mentioned in the thread about what's gone wrong with the site that GamesBids is just so very unwelcoming to newbies and intolerant of just good old passion. Sure, La La Land is not some secret weapon in the LA bid teams arsenal. But as a movie that conveys a bidding city in a fun, very positive light, it's totally appropriate to being up here. I can't wait to see it - and I'm sure it'll probably make me think more positively about LA (especially considering the last LA-set movie I watched, just the other day, was Straight Outta Compton).

 

So we're supposed (and have mostly learned) to ignore the idiotic and banal posts of Blake the most annoying troll poster here, but jump on any one who brings up a movie that's quite enjoyable about a bid city? I think the site could do with a lot more LA, Paris and Budapest boosters boasting about the beauty of their burgs.

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Oh snap, what a burn.  Someone get me some ice!  How will I ever recover from that?!

It's ironic though that you said that.  This was the first reply you ever received here..

On 9/29/2015 at 4:50 PM, Quaker2001 said:

Welcome to the forum, RuFF. I few points to offer..

Again, your first post cited people on these forums being "misinformed" (your word, not mine) and from the start, LA was " Literally, a city reinvented."  Literally in this case not literally meaning literally.  And there was a certain other poster who was a lot less kind in his initial replies back to you for those same reasons.  You came onto this site firing shots out, so maybe it shouldn't be a surprise some people shot back.  So to Sir Rols..

3 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

That's the point I was trying to convey when I mentioned in the thread about what's gone wrong with the site that GamesBids is just so very unwelcoming to newbies and intolerant of just good old passion. Sure, La La Land is not some secret weapon in the LA bid teams arsenal. But as a movie that conveys a bidding city in a fun, very positive light, it's totally appropriate to being up here. I can't wait to see it - and I'm sure it'll probably make me think more positively about LA (especially considering the last LA-set movie I watched, just the other day, was Straight Outta Compton).

So we're supposed (and have mostly learned) to ignore the idiotic and banal posts of Blake the most annoying troll poster here, but jump on any one who brings up a movie that's quite enjoyable about a bid city? I think the site could do with a lot more LA, Paris and Budapest boosters boasting about the beauty of their burgs.

It's not that this site is unwelcoming to newbies or intolerant of passion.  What this site doesn't tolerate well is trolling.  And I'm not talking about Blake or everyone favorite architecture-loving Brit.  To show passion is acceptable.  To be so passionate to the point of trolling, not so much.  And yea, I hold RuFF to a higher standard because he does have many intelligent points to bring up, but far too often that passion comes with the same "LA is the most awesome city ever!" rhetoric that gets shoved down our throats.  Over and over again.  Bringing up a movie on its own is nothing.  It's the steady stream of those posts that get over-bearing.  And it's not like you and Rob and others haven't pointed it out on occasion. 

Oh, and RuFF.. save the reply where you're going to tell me I'm projecting and this is about my insecurity or any of that nonsense.

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14 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said:

It's not that this site is unwelcoming to newbies or intolerant of passion.  What this site doesn't tolerate well is trolling.  And I'm not talking about Blake or everyone favorite architecture-loving Brit.  To show passion is acceptable.  To be so passionate to the point of trolling, not so much.  And yea, I hold RuFF to a higher standard because he does have many intelligent points to bring up, but far too often that passion comes with the same "LA is the most awesome city ever!" rhetoric that gets shoved down our throats.  Over and over again.  Bringing up a movie on its own is nothing.  It's the steady stream of those posts that get over-bearing.  And it's not like you and Rob and others haven't pointed it out on occasion. 

I knew this would come up. And, yes, I have pointed out some of the over-top-hyperbole of some posters in the arguments. If someone is going to seriously suggest that, say, LA is the only city that can harness youth culture or technology or even harness that to a higher degree than any of the others, then, yes, that does deserve a point by point rebuttal. If someone is gonna keep quoting from a source like Abrahamson, then it should be pointed out that Abrahamson is hardly an unbiased or balanced source. if someone is gonna say LA's mayor leaves the others in the shade and is the most effective politician of the generation, well, that's of course gonna provoke some more balanced appraisals.

But jumping on people because they get enthusiastic about a new movie that's getting lots of positive buzz and paints a bidder in a new light? That may help dispel the notion that LA is anything other than a wasteland of freeways and gang turfs? I don't see what's wrong with getting enthusiastic about that. To be fair, I don't know if anyone bar Baron seriously suggested it shouldn't be discussed, but it does seem to me to be exactly the sort of movie that could reasonably be discussed here.

So, yeah, point out hyperbole and boosterism when it is over-the-top. But the boosterism around at the moment is pretty mild compared to almost all the past bid races - even the reviled 2022 race. And enthusiasm shouldn't be dissed just because it's enthusiasm. L:A supporters do have a lot tot be excited about - the bid team's done a remarkable job and the bid is looking like a real chance. I still think Paris will win out at the end, but I don't think this time around its as "sure" a thing as it seemed to be, and was described as such by many, in 2012. It's a real battle for the prize at the moment.

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Quaker, I totally get your point. Hyperbole is peppered here and there, and some are lightning fast to point it out...howwever, our quick mention of La La Land, I feel, did not warrant such a negative response from some of the others on the forum.

I wasn't saying LA is gods gift to the universe, I did however, agree that it was a good movie that was well put together with a big opening scene that surely will be remembered for a long time.

I also routinely post updates on projects and or events that may highlight the city in a more positive light as it relates in some way to what the LA Bid is trying to showcase.

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53 minutes ago, JesseSaenz said:

Quaker, I totally get your point. Hyperbole is peppered here and there, and some are lightning fast to point it out...howwever, our quick mention of La La Land, I feel, did not warrant such a negative response from some of the others on the forum.

I wasn't saying LA is gods gift to the universe, I did however, agree that it was a good movie that was well put together with a big opening scene that surely will be remembered for a long time.

I also routinely post updates on projects and or events that may highlight the city in a more positive light as it relates in some way to what the LA Bid is trying to showcase.

A quick mention of the movie does not warrant a negative response.  The negative response comes from the "it will go down as 1 of the most iconic scenes of any movie.. I was shocked at how well it was put together."  That's not the same as, say "I think the move was well put together" and even if you wanted to tag that by saying it could be used as promotional tool for the bid because of the timing.  Again, tell me you would still feel that way about the movie if you didn't have an LA Olympic bid on your mind and actually think it will be remembered for a long time.

I'll say the same thing to you that I've said elsewhere.. I'm more than happy to discuss updates and news related to the bid and I have nothing against accentuating the positives of the bid.  Just be careful that you're not constantly sprinkling it with this fairy dust where you're so astonished all the time at what they're doing as if you're fawning over the bid.  If that happens once in a while, it's excusable.  If it happens too often, that's when you'll get a negative response.

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3 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

I knew this would come up. And, yes, I have pointed out some of the over-top-hyperbole of some posters in the arguments. If someone is going to seriously suggest that, say, LA is the only city that can harness youth culture or technology or even harness that to a higher degree than any of the others, then, yes, that does deserve a point by point rebuttal. If someone is gonna keep quoting from a source like Abrahamson, then it should be pointed out that Abrahamson is hardly an unbiased or balanced source. if someone is gonna say LA's mayor leaves the others in the shade and is the most effective politician of the generation, well, that's of course gonna provoke some more balanced appraisals.

But jumping on people because they get enthusiastic about a new movie that's getting lots of positive buzz and paints a bidder in a new light? That may help dispel the notion that LA is anything other than a wasteland of freeways and gang turfs? I don't see what's wrong with getting enthusiastic about that. To be fair, I don't know if anyone bar Baron seriously suggested it shouldn't be discussed, but it does seem to me to be exactly the sort of movie that could reasonably be discussed here.

So, yeah, point out hyperbole and boosterism when it is over-the-top. But the boosterism around at the moment is pretty mild compared to almost all the past bid races - even the reviled 2022 race. And enthusiasm shouldn't be dissed just because it's enthusiasm. L:A supporters do have a lot tot be excited about - the bid team's done a remarkable job and the bid is looking like a real chance. I still think Paris will win out at the end, but I don't think this time around its as "sure" a thing as it seemed to be, and was described as such by many, in 2012. It's a real battle for the prize at the moment.

Okay, now you're starting to drink the kool aid there.  Let me ask you.. is that your perception of LA?  Do you think LA needs to project their story to the world in order to change that perception?  I know RuFF and some others have said that, but I'll trust your more neutral viewpoint if you tell me that's the case.  And in that same paragraph, you used the word "rationally."  I haven't seen the movie, so I can't offer up an opinion, but the comments on the movie seem to fall under the same pretense of over-the-top hyperbole we get a lot here.  As I told Jesse, if that happens once in a while, no one will notice.  When it happens more frequently, it's going to get pointed out.

I am in no way trying to deny LA supporters their excitement and enthusiasm.  I'm not dissing enthusiasm so much as I'm dissing the hyperbole.  There are ways to discuss and view LA's bid in an extremely positive light where it's hard to argue that the city and the bid committee are doing great things.  It's where the argument becomes "it's undeniable LA is doing a great job" and talking points like that where it's tough to have a reasonable discussion, where someone is basically saying "LA is awesome and you're not allowed to disagree with me."  This movie thing probably doesn't fall into that category, but it's just another element thrown onto the pile of everything you mentioned in that first paragraph.

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41 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said:

Okay, now you're starting to drink the kool aid there.  Let me ask you.. is that your perception of LA?  Do you think LA needs to project their story to the world in order to change that perception?  I know RuFF and some others have said that, but I'll trust your more neutral viewpoint if you tell me that's the case.  And in that same paragraph, you used the word "rationally."  I haven't seen the movie, so I can't offer up an opinion, but the comments on the movie seem to fall under the same pretense of over-the-top hyperbole we get a lot here.  As I told Jesse, if that happens once in a while, no one will notice.  When it happens more frequently, it's going to get pointed out.

I am in no way trying to deny LA supporters their excitement and enthusiasm.  I'm not dissing enthusiasm so much as I'm dissing the hyperbole.  There are ways to discuss and view LA's bid in an extremely positive light where it's hard to argue that the city and the bid committee are doing great things.  It's where the argument becomes "it's undeniable LA is doing a great job" and talking points like that where it's tough to have a reasonable discussion, where someone is basically saying "LA is awesome and you're not allowed to disagree with me."  This movie thing probably doesn't fall into that category, but it's just another element thrown onto the pile of everything you mentioned in that first paragraph.

My opinion and perception of LA? To tell you the truth, I'm not a fan at all. I've been there numerous times - for both extended and short stays. As an Aussie, it's our main gateway into the US. Unfortunately, it's always been about my least favourite city to visit in the US. I've never found it particularly attractive, I've found it too vast and bland, I've always found it difficult to get around as a tourist/visitor relying on public transit. I've never been starstruck by Hollywood, so that hasn't appealed to me as a reason to visit or like it. The beach areas are nice enough, but I come from Sydney - I can show you any number of extremely nice beaches and coast landscapes here that give LA's beaches more than a run for their money. I've enjoyed Disneyland (is it even considered part of the LA experience, or Orange County?) but that's about as far as my positive experiences of LA are concerned.

That said, it's probably been more than a decade since I've done anything more than pass through LAX on the way to a more attractive (IMO) destination. I've actively avoided it as anything other than a transit gateway since my earlier explorations. I'm probably exactly the type of person who needs some education on how much the city has changed for the better. If the transport is so much better, if it has developed a class and charm of its own as many of the LA boosters here keep telling me, I could probably well do with a re-introduction to it. Yeah, just about everyone in the world knows its a big, important and iconic city of the US. But it also indeed has some image problems that may or may not be reflective of it in reality now.

As for the movie - for god's sake, it's a movie. Of course people gush. I went to see the new Rogue One/Star Wars yesterday - I've been gushing to all and sundry here since about how much I was blown away by it. My feelings for it go way beyond a detached critical assessment of its crafting. Yeah, some conversations here should be conducted clinically and rationally. But there's also a place for fanboiyism and ebullience.

BTW - I said reasonably, not rationally, The two don't have to be the same. 

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2 hours ago, Quaker2001 said:

A quick mention of the movie does not warrant a negative response.  The negative response comes from the "it will go down as 1 of the most iconic scenes of any movie.. I was shocked at how well it was put together."  That's not the same as, say "I think the move was well put together" and even if you wanted to tag that by saying it could be used as promotional tool for the bid because of the timing.  Again, tell me you would still feel that way about the movie if you didn't have an LA Olympic bid on your mind and actually think it will be remembered for a long time.

I'll say the same thing to you that I've said elsewhere.. I'm more than happy to discuss updates and news related to the bid and I have nothing against accentuating the positives of the bid.  Just be careful that you're not constantly sprinkling it with this fairy dust where you're so astonished all the time at what they're doing as if you're fawning over the bid.  If that happens once in a while, it's excusable.  If it happens too often, that's when you'll get a negative response.

Short answer.

 

Yes, I would still feel this way about the movie if LA was not bidding.

Gangster Squad, Crash, and numerous others have been shot in LA, none of which I liked.

Training Day is another which showed the very ugly side of LA and I loved it because it was a great movie.

La La Land was a feel good movie with a big opening scene on a traffic jammed freeway. Yes its fantasy, yes its a movie, and yes I do believe it will become an iconic scene that many people will instantly recognize. It was shot in a single take with 100 dancers and 150+ cars several hundred feet up in the air. It was by no means an easy thing to shoot.

I stand by what I said. It will go down as one of the most iconic scenes of any movie.

Obviously, everyone has a different taste in movies, I for one loathe musicals, but this one really got it down right, and non Angelinos and even non Americans agree.

I wasn't using hyperbole, I was giving my honest take on it. That you want to roll your eyes and want to dismiss it, fine.

Again, yes, since we are on the LA forum I saw nothing wrong with mentioning it because it, unlike Traning Day, showed a more classier LA, one that perhaps even LA haters wouldn't mind visiting or seeing for themselves.

It was never meant to become this polarized subject with long replies.

 

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Wow, gee, sorry, guys.  Didn't realize my one seemingly innocuous comment about La La Land could've set off such a firestorm!

Alright, I just looked at the trailer.  Visually, it looks nice; music, I don't know.  But I'll definitely put it on my holiday list and see.  However, even half a dozen great movies about LA ...or Paris...or Budapest ...or Beirut ain't gonna get them elected by the IOC -- not unless more than half the IOC voters are die-hard fans of whomever is starring in whichever movie it is anyone here wants to single out.  That's basically my point.  

If anything, it's the Olympics that'll make an ex-host city magical or have an afterglow because of the Games; not the other way around.  That was really the raison d'etre of my earlier comment; not anything else.  

Just a thought: is "La La Land" anything like Woody Allen's "Everyone Says I Love You" which seemed like his valentine tribute to Paris from an American's POV?  That's what I'm thinking.  And of course, VICKY CRISTINA BARCELONA would not have gained such traction and reknown were it not for Barcelona 1992.

 

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18 minutes ago, Sir Rols said:

I don't think there's anything to apologise for - it was the first day in a while I was enjoying the cut and thrust of debate. For those bemoaning the state of the site, this is what it was like and it should be - vehement but respectful argument.

With the introduction of movies to the thread, there is one thing to apologise for:

 

SPOILERS !

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On 12/18/2016 at 2:57 PM, Sir Rols said:

So we're supposed (and have mostly learned) to ignore the idiotic and banal posts of Blake the most annoying troll poster here, but jump on any one who brings up a movie that's quite enjoyable about a bid city? I think the site could do with a lot more LA, Paris and Budapest boosters boasting about the beauty of their burgs.

Blake's posts have never bother me. It's the guys who are argumentative assholes.

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18 hours ago, JesseSaenz said:

Gangster Squad, Crash, and numerous others have been shot in LA, none of which I liked.

I'm sure there are some movies shot in LA that you've liked where LA plays itself, that you've liked?

I'm really into film noir and old Los Angeles, so those are right up my alley.  "Double Indemnity" and "Mildred Pierce" come immediately to mind, as those are the quintessential films noir.  

From the 1990s, I like "Pulp Fiction" and "Jackie Brown," though I think "Jackie Brown" is the better of the two, I just love that film.  And I guess it shows more of the South Bay than it does LA proper, apart from LAX and one of the death scenes towards the end in that gritty part of downtown.

And incidentally, another Ryan Gosling film I like that's set in LA... "Drive."  Somewhat of a neo-noir film.  

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21 hours ago, Sir Rols said:

My opinion and perception of LA? To tell you the truth, I'm not a fan at all. I've been there numerous times - for both extended and short stays. As an Aussie, it's our main gateway into the US. Unfortunately, it's always been about my least favourite city to visit in the US. I've never found it particularly attractive, I've found it too vast and bland, I've always found it difficult to get around as a tourist/visitor relying on public transit. I've never been starstruck by Hollywood, so that hasn't appealed to me as a reason to visit or like it. The beach areas are nice enough, but I come from Sydney - I can show you any number of extremely nice beaches and coast landscapes here that give LA's beaches more than a run for their money. I've enjoyed Disneyland (is it even considered part of the LA experience, or Orange County?) but that's about as far as my positive experiences of LA are concerned.

That said, it's probably been more than a decade since I've done anything more than pass through LAX on the way to a more attractive (IMO) destination. I've actively avoided it as anything other than a transit gateway since my earlier explorations. I'm probably exactly the type of person who needs some education on how much the city has changed for the better. If the transport is so much better, if it has developed a class and charm of its own as many of the LA boosters here keep telling me, I could probably well do with a re-introduction to it. Yeah, just about everyone in the world knows its a big, important and iconic city of the US. But it also indeed has some image problems that may or may not be reflective of it in reality now.

As for the movie - for god's sake, it's a movie. Of course people gush. I went to see the new Rogue One/Star Wars yesterday - I've been gushing to all and sundry here since about how much I was blown away by it. My feelings for it go way beyond a detached critical assessment of its crafting. Yeah, some conversations here should be conducted clinically and rationally. But there's also a place for fanboiyism and ebullience.

BTW - I said reasonably, not rationally, The two don't have to be the same. 

 

There's a documentary that came out about a year or so ago, called "City of Gold."  It's about the Pulitzer Prize-winning food critic, Jonathan Gold, who writes restaurant reviews for the LA Times, the LA Weekly, and other publications.  I liked the film; not only is it about the food critic, but it's also about LA's food scene, and the city itself.  Jonathan Gold is a native Angeleno, so that adds a nuance to the film.  As a native Angeleno myself, I saw it as somehow a love letter to Los Angeles.  In fact, there are many shots of the city that are more revealing and somehow romantic than the shots of LA used in "La La Land," in that the scenes are very real, and anyone who lives in LA would be very familiar with the scenes it shows.  In fact, while I was watching the movie, I often found myself thinking "Where *is* that?  That street looks familiar...' and then I would realize what street it is and it's a street that I drive on often.  

Anyway, reading your opinion about LA made me think of this film; in it, Jonathan Gold says something that I think is very spot on:

"Everybody in the world has an idea of what Los Angeles is.  Everybody thinks they know what Los Angeles means, even if they've never been here.  And, if you live in Los Angeles, you're used to having your city explained to you by people who come in for a couple of weeks, stay at a hotel in Beverly Hills, and take in what they can get to within 10 minutes of their rented car.  The thing that people find hard to understand, I think, is sort of the magnitude of what's here, the huge number of multiple cultures that live in the city who come together in this beautiful and haphazard fashion.  And the fault lines between them are sometimes where you find the most beautiful things."  

In the mid-1990s, when I first started chatting on the internet, I chatted with a guy in Richmond, VA.  I told him that I lived in LA.  He said "Oh, I hate LA."  I asked him why.  And as it turned out, I found out he had only been to LA once, and it was because he got stranded at LAX, and had to stay at the Airport Hilton on Century Blvd. for 2 days; his opinion of LA was based on his experience of where he could walk to from the Airport Hilton.  And if anyone knows that area immediately near LAX, there really isn't much to walk to around there.

So I get it.  LA is massive in area.  It's not like other cities where everything a tourist wants to see is concentrated in one area, like a downtown, or the tiny island of Manhattan, or one very wide street in Las Vegas.  In LA, things that tourists want to see are spread throughout the city, and even into the suburbs, which I think is kinda unique, in that I can't think of other metropolitan areas where there are things for tourists to see in the suburbs.  And, in between traveling the long distances from one site to another, you often have to go through areas that are very blah, or very gritty (even scary, as some visitors I've talked to put it), or very ordinary-looking.  Or very interesting.  

Disneyland, though not in LA County, is very much a part of the "LA experience" for people who've grown up in LA and SoCal, in that many kids have gone to Disneyland---there are even adults who get annual passes and go to Disneyland often.  I myself haven't been there in years.  As a kid I went often, but as I got older, I started liking it less and less.  I enjoyed going there when my sister's kids were little and I enjoyed it knowing they were enjoying it (even though after a number of hours I couldn't wait to leave the place).  

So Sir Rols, did you rent a car when you were in LA?  If you didn't, would your experience have been like the Aussies in this video?

 

Or the people in this video?

 

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1 hour ago, ejaycat said:

"Everybody in the world has an idea of what Los Angeles is.  Everybody thinks they know what Los Angeles means, even if they've never been here.  And, if you live in Los Angeles, you're used to having your city explained to you by people who come in for a couple of weeks, stay at a hotel in Beverly Hills, and take in what they can get to within 10 minutes of their rented car.  The thing that people find hard to understand, I think, is sort of the magnitude of what's here, the huge number of multiple cultures that live in the city who come together in this beautiful and haphazard fashion.  And the fault lines between them are sometimes where you find the most beautiful things."  

Even as I was writing my thoughts on LA yesterday, I did realise that ultimately, it will always be flawed as an assessment. In the end, it's one person's - my personal - experience, and everyone reacts to things differently, and their experience can be clouded by so many things - the weather (though I have to say, I've never experienced anything but warm and sunny in LA), who they're with, how they travelled, the type of trip they were on. Also, I mentioned that LA has an image problem. Again, that's based on the prejudices and bias confirmations of my closest circles of friends. I should have also added, that I do know many people who love it and had great experiences there, so condescension towards LA is certainly not universal.

1 hour ago, ejaycat said:

So I get it.  LA is massive in area.  It's not like other cities where everything a tourist wants to see is concentrated in one area, like a downtown, or the tiny island of Manhattan, or one very wide street in Las Vegas.  In LA, things that tourists want to see are spread throughout the city, and even into the suburbs, which I think is kinda unique, in that I can't think of other metropolitan areas where there are things for tourists to see in the suburbs.  And, in between traveling the long distances from one site to another, you often have to go through areas that are very blah, or very gritty (even scary, as some visitors I've talked to put it), or very ordinary-looking.  Or very interesting.  

...

So Sir Rols, did you rent a car when you were in LA?  If you didn't, would your experience have been like the Aussies in this video?

And, yeah, here's one of the big rubs for me. I don't mind big urban areas - Australian cities tend to be very spread out and suburban too, more like American cities than the more compact European ones. And similarly, most of Sydney's best sights and experiences are away from the centre. But I've not done LA by car - I've always had to struggle through using the public transport - usually bus, which involved working out which buses go to where then being surprised how long most of those journeys actually take. Most going through not so good neighbourhoods on the way to my destinations. Of course that makes a big difference to the experience.

And, all my LA experiences have been on my lonesome. Not even an Aussie friend with me much less than a local to show me around. It struck me yesterday, as my original post made me recall back on my travels, how much I've loved everywhere else in California I've been to. I've thoroughly enjoyed San Diego, San Francisco (one of my favourite spots in the world), Tahoe, Monterey and Carmel. And I realised that on my visits to those points, I was often with locals, American friends who could take me by car around and show me their favourite spots and things off the usual tourist trails. I feel I've "experienced" those other areas, while, I have to admit, LA I've only just "seen". 

So maybe the answer is, yeah, I really should give LA another chance. And maybe next time badger you, or Krow, or Paul, or one of the other Angelenos here, to show me a good time, hoon around in some flash car and challenge you to change my preconceptions.

Edited by Sir Rols
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On 12/18/2016 at 8:29 PM, Sir Rols said:

If the transport is so much better, if it has developed a class and charm of its own as many of the LA boosters here keep telling me, I could probably well do with a re-introduction to it.

For better or for worse, Los Angeles is a city that excels at consuming the culture of the world and re-packaging it for mass consumption. (It does other things too of course, but that is what it is best at.) It is worth noting that Disney did not produce a cartoon film set in Los Angeles until 2008.

In fairness though, anything LA does create locally gets globalized so quickly that people forget it came from Los Angeles. It certainly does have its own unique stuff too: it is just lost in a crowd.

Kind of off topic, but an issue of interest to me:

Spoiler

Freedom of movement in the USA produces some strange effects. Europe is divided by things people grow up with: culture and language. The USA self-divides based on personality and economics. I grew up in Los Angeles with six kids in our extended family.

  1. The one with the highest SAT score in his graduating class (me) moved to Seattle and became an environmental scientist.
  2. My redneck brother moved to Alaska so he could hunt and fish whenever he wanted.
  3. My hippie cousin moved to Oregon to become a midwife.
  4. My right wing cousin joined the military and now lives in the similarly right wing southern states.
  5. One is a computer programmer in Los Angeles.
  6. The last is also still in Los Angeles and wants to be a screenwriter.

Los Angeles is successful because it draws people from around the USA because of Disney and Hollywood. Most working class people are better off elsewhere where housing is cheaper and jobs are more plentiful. Cities in the USA naturally specialize, and it happens in Canada too. And I think that really hurts the ability of LA to create "its own charm" as people move in and out of the city so quickly.

I think this is a result of federalism, and have always wondered if this happens in Australia, Brazil, Germany, etc as well. Unitary states don't seem to have this issue: London and Paris (villes royales) attract people from all walks of life. But do actresses in Germany move to Berlin, bankers to Frankfurt, and writers to Munich? Do people in Australia self-segregate themselves into Perth, Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane?

 

Edited by Nacre
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