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1. Magellan was Portuguese working for the Spanish Crown and together with Elcano, completed the first circumnavigation of the Earth. Something that I am very proud of but at the same time not related

Gladly, but if you're still going to post inaccuracies about me, then I'll have to correct your absurdities. It'll be easier to forget about you once you stop posting such diatribe.

Its because if Tokyo gets 2020 then for North America to follow in 2024 would mean three straight Summer Olympics not in Europe. This is a scenario that is unlikely.

And who says lobbying of some kinds isn't fair anyway? Surely all bids lobby? Paris SHOULD have known the game much better than London, what with it being their third bid. If they lost because they didn't do certain things as well as London, I'm not sure what their excuse is.

And everything Athensfan says above is true as well. The media put Paris way out ahead, sure, but what do they know? They also had Chicago as favourites. It's true to say though, that whilst favourites often lose, bids considered a fair way behind don't often win. A Madrid win would surprise me almost as much as Annecy 2018 or Moscow 2012 for this reason. But it's true also they have a strong base in the IOC, and are obviously very clued up when it comes to lobbying too....so a shock is possible, but as I say I'd be surprised if it happened.

Still bitter eight years on are we? Dear oh dear! Nobody has posted anything even remotely substantial to suggest London didn't play fairly. I doubt you've any shocking new revelations either. yawn.gif

Was Madrid favourite and got the 3rd position for 2012 OG? (First time bidding and competing with big contenders)

Was Madrid favourite for 2016 OG and keep on a second position? (even knowing an impossible hosting because of the geographical rotation)

The answer is: No.

And that is the thing, that Madrid is always far from favourites bids, but in the end is not so far as media or Index predict (no mention about ordinary people).

And after the last presentation, is Madrid more or less favourite?

For me OB races are in general very "dingy", not as much as FIFA, but on the way... This is a game with its laws, and lobby is fair inside this opaque proccess.

But I can't accept when Madrid for the first time before final decision that has real odds I read comments like "Is not fair", "is not its time", "Crisis bid/austerity bid? WTF!!". And I will answer all of them:

"Is not fair" - Sorry, but Madrid do the same like the other bids, and maybe this time better than never. I'm sure that our team, our royal family, our 3 IOC members, our politics and our relevant athletes along 12 past years lobbying, will make a very positive boost for 2020.

"is not its time" - Maybe between global cities or geographical challenges Madrid won't have the time never. But anyway, is this a race where bidding is forbidden? Could Sydney, London or Beijing bidding for 2024? would be almost impossible to host again, yes, but it is a right and it is fair. It is simple, cities not bidding for 2020, sorry but can not book a date.

"Crisis bid/austerity bid?/Crisis WTF!!" - People that say this have 2 problems:

1.- They don't know the real size or magnitude of Spanish and Madrid economy, and its real state.

2.- They probably have a wasteful, inefficient, and out of phase model (FIFA example) what make an unjust world. More money, more chances, the bigger, the better... spectacular, spectacular!!

(And of course I'm not going to repeat about Madrid venues, infrastructures, events experience, creativity or its people's character)

About London, sorry RobH, I wouldn't have to post that. Only wanted to compare that if lobby is fair (or not) for London, also is fair (or not) for Madrid, and for any bidding city.

I can't accept

Ok, lobbying is a part of the game, so of course is fair, as fair as

Sorry about London, the thing is that, in general those races are not a fair play all is moving by interests. But when some bids are lobbying, is ok, logic, when Madrid lobbying or is unfair or is a joke about the prince. Tokyo can fight above population support, above natural dissasters and I respect all bids, and I cant say Istam bul is unfair because of X or Tokyo because Xthat made a very good games, but I can`t accept someone says that Spanish bid is unfair because of the Index, press and himself expectations, that is logic, but, sorry, each contender is fair. I´m a Madrid bid supporter and Im not , because I think they are not .

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Noone wants a shitty cheap games. God how many times does it need to be said.

"The budget that remains for the construction of infrastructure, some (euro) 1.5 billion divided between the three administrations responsible and over a period of seven years, is a perfectly affordable amount," said Madrid mayor Ana Botella, referring to how central, regional and city governments plan to split the budget of nearly $2 billion.

http://espn.go.com/olympics/story/_/id/9064997/ioc-begins-4-day-inspection-madrid-2020-plans

What $2 billion budget? When London was what $14 billion? And Sochi is $50 billion? Modest is a freaking understatement. The IOC are already rather embarrassed by the huge cost blowout by Sochi I don't think they want to see a $2-3 billion dollar game budget prediction to quadruple.

Play it safe, choose the more capable, more realistic city. Tokyo.

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Am I the only one who keeps mis-reading this thread's title on the forum list as "huge ass-women videos"? I almost expect to see pics of Rio's Watermelon Woman!

watermelon-woman.jpg

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Was Madrid favourite and got the 3rd position for 2012 OG? (First time bidding and competing with big contenders)

Was Madrid favourite for 2016 OG and keep on a second position? (even knowing an impossible hosting because of the geographical rotation)

The answer is: No.

And that is the thing, that Madrid is always far from favourites bids, but in the end is not so far as media or Index predict (no mention about ordinary people).

And after the last presentation, is Madrid more or less favourite?

For me OB races are in general very "dingy", not as much as FIFA, but on the way... This is a game with its laws, and lobby is fair inside this opaque proccess.

But I can't accept when Madrid for the first time before final decision that has real odds I read comments like "Is not fair", "is not its time", "Crisis bid/austerity bid? WTF!!". And I will answer all of them:

"Is not fair" - Sorry, but Madrid do the same like the other bids, and maybe this time better than never. I'm sure that our team, our royal family, our 3 IOC members, our politics and our relevant athletes along 12 past years lobbying, will make a very positive boost for 2020.

"is not its time" - Maybe between global cities or geographical challenges Madrid won't have the time never. But anyway, is this a race where bidding is forbidden? Could Sydney, London or Beijing bidding for 2024? would be almost impossible to host again, yes, but it is a right and it is fair. It is simple, cities not bidding for 2020, sorry but can not book a date.

"Crisis bid/austerity bid?/Crisis WTF!!" - People that say this have 2 problems:

1.- They don't know the real size or magnitude of Spanish and Madrid economy, and its real state.

2.- They probably have a wasteful, inefficient, and out of phase model (FIFA example) what make an unjust world. More money, more chances, the bigger, the better... spectacular, spectacular!!

(And of course I'm not going to repeat about Madrid venues, infrastructures, events experience, creativity or its people's character)

About London, sorry RobH, I wouldn't have to post that. Only wanted to compare that if lobby is fair (or not) for London, also is fair (or not) for Madrid, and for any bidding city.

I can't accept

Ok, lobbying is a part of the game, so of course is fair, as fair as

Sorry about London, the thing is that, in general those races are not a fair play all is moving by interests. But when some bids are lobbying, is ok, logic, when Madrid lobbying or is unfair or is a joke about the prince. Tokyo can fight above population support, above natural dissasters and I respect all bids, and I cant say Istam bul is unfair because of X or Tokyo because Xthat made a very good games, but I can`t accept someone says that Spanish bid is unfair because of the Index, press and himself expectations, that is logic, but, sorry, each contender is fair. I´m a Madrid bid supporter and Im not , because I think they are not .

I couldn't agree more, Michel. All rules that apply for others are not OK for Madrid. And it has been this way since 2005. I wonder when will it be the time for Madrid it it's not a world-class city: plenty of people here says Madrid doesn't deserve the games before Paris or Berlin... even facing that Paris stated in 2005 that they won't be bidding for a quite long time.

I'm being accused of not being Italian because I defend "chauvinistically" Madrid. They simply don't get that you can be no Spaniard and defend a bid which you consider the fairest. It is just a matter of biased perception. Very anglosaxon.

Anyway, this doesn't mean at all that I'm sure Madrid will win. Actually, I don't think so. The only card I see they have is being the only total European city bidding this year, and therefore delivering a European-free race for Asia, America in 2024, but unfortunately cards play for Tokyo or Istanbul in September, and I can see Tokyo winning easily. Why not? It is a safe bid, probably very flashy in terms of merchandising and with a strong enough economy. If Tokyo is the winner, then I'd predict Madrid will not bid in 2024, because it will have no sense competing against Paris, Berlin and even Rome. This will deliver a perfect scenario for Madrid in 2032... if it was the only European city bidding again! Because, you know, as it deserves the Games less than the others, maybe should wait until all the others have hosted. And so on.

That argument is just a hidden ban for a city they don't estimate as valuable as many others. But facts tell us about is the only European city bidding right now. And this is the way Spain NOC should lobby towards.

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I couldn't agree more, Michel. All rules that apply for others are not OK for Madrid. And it has been this way since 2005.

I can't think of a single example of that being true. Where are these apparent double-standards?

If Australia bids for 2024, people would say it's too soon after Sydney so that's not one, ditto if Greece put in a bid in the late 2020s. It can't be to do with lobbying because the influence of JAS and JAS Jnr are open secrets when it comes to Spanish bids. The venue plan has been praised by many here compared to its rivals, but again, all people are pointing out is the fact this hasn't been of much advantage in their last two bids.

Some people's personal preference for wanting to see Paris or Berlin hosting before Spain does again is just that, personal preference. It doesn't MEAN anything, unless there are IOC members who feel the same.

What exactly are people saying that is unfair with regard to Madrid?

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What exactly are people saying that is unfair with regard to Madrid?

I actually don't care Barcelona hosted in 1992 but when people keep saying Tokyo hosted in 1964 that's when I bring up the Barcelona situation. Both cities are capable of hosting I am sure however IN MY OPINION I don't feel Madrid should host because of there ridiculous budget and the fact they will have a "cheap" games.

Unfair to me would be if Madrid wins then there budget blows out to $15 billion when Tokyo and Istanbul? already stated a realistic budget yet Madrid wins because they said it would be cheap and efficient but it's not.

But I mean sure lets give Madrid 2020 and let them host on a budget of $2 billion! Rather funny when the 2015 Pan American games are set to cost $2.4 billion.

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I actually don't care Barcelona hosted in 1992 but when people keep saying Tokyo hosted in 1964 that's when I bring up the Barcelona situation. Both cities are capable of hosting I am sure however IN MY OPINION I don't feel Madrid should host because of there ridiculous budget and the fact they will have a "cheap" games.

Unfair to me would be if Madrid wins then there budget blows out to $15 billion when Tokyo and Istanbul? already stated a realistic budget yet Madrid wins because they said it would be cheap and efficient but it's not.

But I mean sure lets give Madrid 2020 and let them host on a budget of $2 billion! Rather funny when the 2015 Pan American games are set to cost $2.4 billion.

If you think about all the investment done for 2012, 2016 bids, then you understand why this ridiculous budget could be somehow feasible. This doesn't mean in any terms that I think it won't blow out; it surely will. But never to the levels of the Istanbul one.

I can't think of a single example of that being true. Where are these apparent double-standards?

If Australia bids for 2024, people would say it's too soon after Sydney so that's not one, ditto if Greece put in a bid in the late 2020s. It can't be to do with lobbying because the influence of JAS and JAS Jnr are open secrets when it comes to Spanish bids. The venue plan has been praised by many here compared to its rivals, but again, all people are pointing out is the fact this hasn't been of much advantage in their last two bids.

Some people's personal preference for wanting to see Paris or Berlin hosting before Spain does again is just that, personal preference. It doesn't MEAN anything, unless there are IOC members who feel the same.

What exactly are people saying that is unfair with regard to Madrid?

Australia has half the population of Spain, and had games in 1956 and 2000 (44 years). If Spain hosts in 2020 is 28 years far from 1992. I don't think that's such early after Barcelona.

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Noone wants a shitty cheap games. God how many times does it need to be said.

What $2 billion budget? When London was what $14 billion? And Sochi is $50 billion? Modest is a freaking understatement. The IOC are already rather embarrassed by the huge cost blowout by Sochi I don't think they want to see a $2-3 billion dollar game budget prediction to quadruple.

Play it safe, choose the more capable, more realistic city. Tokyo.

I think you should apologize for your offensive comment to the candidacy of Madrid.

Firstly you're speaking in my opinion from the absolute ignorance. Let me explain something we'll see if you're able to understand it, one of the reasons why Madrid's budget is so low compared with other candidate cities is that Madrid already has built 80% of the sports facilities and the entire transport infrastructure because during the last years Madrid has invested billions of dollars in its construction.

Secondly, you're talking about anyone wants cheap Games, that's your opinion and maybe the opinion of others. However, the IOC has recently shown its concern over the exorbitant economic cost of the celebration of the Olympic Games, that is the reality. Furthermore, if your argument is shared by all that would mean that only the richest and most powerful nations could host the Games something that goes against the universality principle which is driven by the IOC itself.

Finally, if should host the Games the countries that are willing to invest a lot of money, instead of a selection and evaluation process following many criteria, I think that it would be easier to put up for auction who should host the Olympic Games every year. What´s your opinion? I think that you agree because of at the end your only argument is money.

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I think you should apologize for your offensive comment to the candidacy of Madrid.Firstly you're speaking in my opinion from the absolute ignorance. Furthermore, if your argument is shared bll that would mean that only the richest and most powerful nations could host the Games something that goes against the universality principle which is driven by the IOC itself.Finally, if should host the Games the countries that are willing to invest a lot of money, instead of a selection and evaluation process following many criteria, I think that it would be easier to .

I guess that's why Somalia, Iraq, india and Bangladesh host several games...

Seriously? Everything to do with Olympic bidding is money. Cool they built there buildings already but they said $12 million on security seriously even the IOC said they were modest.

The IOC isn't happy about sochis blowout budget and with madrids unrealistic budget of $2 billion I can see that budget quadrupling. You know what my only argument might be money because that's whats freaking needed for a games. Security isn't free. Infrastructure isn't the only thing needed for a games.

Oh and my 'sincere' apologies I sure hope I didn't offend the 0 people from the Madrid bid committee.

Who actually read my posts*

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Fair enough, but others do, and it's not double-standards. What rule is Madrid not being held to that other are?

RobH

I'm sure you've seen all among this forums plenty of people banishing Madrid's candidacy just because "it doesn't deserve the games before other much more important world-class cities". Surely are personal opinions, but they are mainly supported by the argument that it is the IOC the one who thinks like this.

And let's face it: i do think too that the IOC might think that Spain is too arrogant to bid so untimely. But the fact is: awarding Madrid right now just delivers a very clean race à la 2012 if Paris, Berlin and maybe Rome compete in 2028 or 2032. It is clearly Tokyo the one who offers the perfect contrast to Rio, perfect timing for Asia, strong & efficient technical bid... but if Madrid loses again and bids for 2024 with Paris, Berlin & Rome... will the IOC just make them lose again and therefore punishing Spain for bidding so continuously and awarding the arrogancy of the ones "offended"? That would be highly difficult to defend, especially considering that Madrid three-bids-in-a-row have had nothing really wrong.

My point is that the reasons for saying no to Madrid are running up, and a European race in 2024 including Madrid again would be a real diplomatic nightmare.

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Unfair to me would be if Madrid wins then there budget blows out to $15 billion when Tokyo and Istanbul? already stated a realistic budget yet Madrid wins because they said it would be cheap and efficient but it's not.

But I mean sure lets give Madrid 2020 and let them host on a budget of $2 billion! Rather funny when the 2015 Pan American games are set to cost $2.4 billion.

Agreed. And I think veterans w/in the IOC know that $1.2 billion (even w/ 80% of the venues already there) is HIGHLY unrealistic and disingenuous. What cheap Olympics (other than the Lake Placid Games of the US-hosted ones) didn't go over budget. I'd say, right now, if Madrid were awarded 2020, those Games would go over budget by at least $800 million when all is said and done. No host will settle for a no-frills Games.

RobH

I'm sure you've seen all among this forums plenty of people banishing Madrid's candidacy just because "it doesn't deserve the games before other much more important world-class cities". Surely are personal opinions, but they are mainly supported by the argument that it is the IOC the one who thinks like this.

And let's face it: i do think too that the IOC might think that Spain is too arrogant to bid so untimely. But the fact is: awarding Madrid right now just delivers a very clean race à la 2012 if Paris, Berlin and maybe Rome compete in 2028 or 2032. It is clearly Tokyo the one who offers the perfect contrast to Rio, perfect timing for Asia, strong & efficient technical bid... but if Madrid loses again and bids for 2024 with Paris, Berlin & Rome... will the IOC just make them lose again and therefore punishing Spain for bidding so continuously and awarding the arrogancy of the ones "offended"? That would be highly difficult to defend, especially considering that Madrid three-bids-in-a-row have had nothing really wrong.

My point is that the reasons for saying no to Madrid are running up, and a European race in 2024 including Madrid again would be a real diplomatic nightmare.

U know, Cenenterola, much as I'd want Madrid to win over Tokyo, what people forget is that Madrid is hell in July and August. (Yeah, it's a dry heat -- but still, there will be heat casualties.) Not even taking the global warming factor into consideration.

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U know, Cenenterola, much as I'd want Madrid to win over Tokyo, what people forget is that Madrid is hell in July and August. (Yeah, it's a dry heat -- but still, there will be heat casualties.) Not even taking the global warming factor into consideration.

Are you serious? :blink: What about Athens, then? Do you think is cooler than Madrid?

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Are you serious? :blink: What about Athens, then? Do you think is cooler than Madrid?

R u serious? :blink: Uhmmm...Athens, Greece is the home of the Olympics. What is Madrid the home of? Aside from Isabel Preysler, bullfights and the Prado, what is so important that it must be held in Madrid in July and August? Istanbul has the strong winds of the Bosphorus and Tokyo is much cooler in the summer than Madrid caliente!!

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R u serious? :blink: Uhmmm...Athens, Greece is the home of the Olympics. What is Madrid the home of? Aside from Isabel Preysler, bullfights and the Prado, what is so important that it must be held in Madrid in July and August? Istanbul has the strong winds of the Bosphorus and Tokyo is much cooler in the summer than Madrid caliente!!

Ok, I see... you're joking ;) Barcelona is much humid than Madrid, and therefore heat there is pretty awful. Summer in Madrid is really hot, but dryness doesn't make you feel the temperature as high as in the Mediterranean shores.

Who the hell is Isabel Pryesler, btw?

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1. Ok, I see... you're joking ;) Barcelona is much humid than Madrid, and therefore heat there is pretty awful. Summer in Madrid is really hot, but dryness doesn't make you feel the temperature as high as in the Mediterranean shores.

2. Who the hell is Isabel Pryesler, btw?

1. No, I wasn't joking. I really didn't enjoy Spain in the summer of '92 when I hit Madrid, Sevilla and Barcelona -- all too hot really. Will go again at a cooler time.

2. Why, Isabel Preysler is only the queen of Hola! magazine, the mother of Luis and Enrique Iglesias. and the Bourbon's favorite high society celebrity...

http://multimedia.hola.com/noticias-de-actualidad/2007/04/11/isabel-preysler.jpg

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I guess that's why Somalia, Iraq, india and Bangladesh host several games...

Seriously? Everything to do with Olympic bidding is money. Cool they built there buildings already but they said $12 million on security seriously even the IOC said they were modest.

The IOC isn't happy about sochis blowout budget and with madrids unrealistic budget of $2 billion I can see that budget quadrupling. You know what my only argument might be money because that's whats freaking needed for a games. Security isn't free. Infrastructure isn't the only thing needed for a games.

Oh and my 'sincere' apologies I sure hope I didn't offend the 0 people from the Madrid bid committee.

Who actually read my posts*

I guess that's why Somalia, Iraq, india and Bangladesh host several games...

Seriously? Everything to do with Olympic bidding is money. Cool they built there buildings already but they said $12 million on security seriously even the IOC said they were modest.

The IOC isn't happy about sochis blowout budget and with madrids unrealistic budget of $2 billion I can see that budget quadrupling. You know what my only argument might be money because that's whats freaking needed for a games. Security isn't free. Infrastructure isn't the only thing needed for a games.

Oh and my 'sincere' apologies I sure hope I didn't offend the 0 people from the Madrid bid committee.

Who actually read my posts*

Very good explanation, surely people who dream that one day their country hosting the Olympic Games will be very grateful for your sincere words then I propose to change the name, I think it would be best to call the Game of Money because for you is the most important money, hey! sorry I forgot the money and security. I see that you are an expert on budgets and knows that the budget of the Madrid bid is unreal because of in your expert opinion its budget will quadruple, but I guess that in your opinion Tokyo and Istanbul budgets are more realistic. Regarding the safety and "very modest" budget as the IOC say, I dont´t doubt that you're aware it refers to private security that would be contracted by the Organizing Committee and it doesn't include Spanish government spending with its security forces due to the Spanish government will be the main guarantor of security during the Games as you know, but it is true perhaps 12 million in private security are insufficient maybe it should be a higher amount.

Regarding your "sincere" apology, I'll be as ironic as you. Madrid's bid committee is deeply grateful, the committee is aware that saying "None wants a SHITTY cheap Games" referring to Madrid was just a slip, You can not imagine how much they were worried because they know about your expert opinion in this topic, and your on the IOC is more, you can be sure that they will contact you in order you give them advice about the budget, the security and of course the year they must submit an application to not disturb any city in the world that surely deserve the Games before Madrid.

If I've done something to offend you please accept my deepest apologies.

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1. No, I wasn't joking. I really didn't enjoy Spain in the summer of '92 when I hit Madrid, Sevilla and Barcelona -- all too hot really. Will go again at a cooler time.

2. Why, Isabel Preysler is only the queen of Hola! magazine, the mother of Luis and Enrique Iglesias. and the Bourbon's favorite high society celebrity...

http://multimedia.hola.com/noticias-de-actualidad/2007/04/11/isabel-preysler.jpg

Well, you maybe did not enjoy, but it is such a weak argument against Madrid... :) "Baron's fragile resistance to heat strongly recommends the IOC to point towards Arctic Circle"

Had no idea about who was that woman

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Well, you maybe did not enjoy, but it is such a weak argument against Madrid... :) "Baron's fragile resistance to heat strongly recommends the IOC to point towards Arctic Circle"

Had no idea about who was that woman

Oh Baloney. Obviously, u have no idea what considerations are taken with regard to outdoor 'summer' competition -- not to mention the comfort of the spectators and horses.

Re Isabel Preysler, then u also have absolutely no idea what goes on in tout Madrid.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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Oh Baloney. Obviously, u have no idea what considerations are taken with regard to outdoor 'summer' competition -- not to mention the comfort of the spectators and horses.

Re Isabel Preysler, then u also have absolutely no idea what goes on in tout Madrid.

You talk about Madrid as it was Doha. Are you really the one who have a clear idea? Don't be such an exaggerate man, my friend ;)

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I couldn't agree more, Michel. All rules that apply for others are not OK for Madrid. And it has been this way since 2005. I wonder when will it be the time for Madrid it it's not a world-class city:

If Tokyo is the winner, then I'd predict Madrid will not bid in 2024, because it will have no sense competing against Paris, Berlin and even Rome. This will deliver a perfect scenario for Madrid in 2032... if it was the only European city bidding again! Because, you know, as it deserves the Games less than the others, maybe should wait until all the others have hosted. And so on.

Now you're getting it! I've always said all along that 2032 is a more appropiate time for Spain to host again. 40 years after Barcelona is a much more fitting. After Paris of course! :P And go figure, you "couldn't agree more" with your other totally Madrid-bias friend there. :rolleyes:

I'm being accused of not being Italian because I defend "chauvinistically" Madrid. They simply don't get that you can be no Spaniard and defend a bid which you consider the fairest. It is just a matter of biased perception. Very anglosaxon.

Wow! Talk about being presumptuous & offensive, while still being a hypocrite. First off, I'm not Anglo-Saxon, Miss "Italian". I don't see what that would have to do with being "fair" even if I was. And secondly, the only one with a 'bias perception' here is you, along with your other two Madrid Bullfighters.

Australia has half the population of Spain, and had games in 1956 and 2000 (44 years). If Spain hosts in 2020 is 28 years far from 1992. I don't think that's such early after Barcelona.

Oh bull! If you're truly being "fair" & objective, then you'd totally see that this is a FLAWED argument for Madrid then. Japan has over 3x's the population of Spain but has hosted only ONE Summer Olympics 56 years ago by 2020. And Turkey, a country almost twice the size of Spain, has NEVER hosted. Yeah, you're "fair" & "not biased" at all. Yeah, okay. :rolleyes:

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Agreed. And I think veterans w/in the IOC know that $1.2 billion (even w/ 80% of the venues already there) is HIGHLY unrealistic and disingenuous. What cheap Olympics (other than the Lake Placid Games of the US-hosted ones) didn't go over budget. I'd say, right now, if Madrid were awarded 2020, those Games would go over budget by at least $800 million when all is said and done. No host will settle for a no-frills Games.

Even the USOC has stated that any U.S. city interested in bidding for 2024 would still need at least 3 Billion in operational costs alone. Since this is the only angle that Madrid has, it looks like they're trying to sell it as hard as a used-car salesman.

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Oh bull! If you're truly being "fair" & objective, then you'd totally see that this is a FLAWED argument for Madrid then. Japan has over 3x's the population of Spain but has hosted only ONE Summer Olympics 56 years ago by 2020. And Turkey, a country almost twice the size of Spain, has NEVER hosted. Yeah, you're "fair" & "not biased" at all. Yeah, okay. :rolleyes:

I thought you posted you were done with me. Why don't you forget me, please?

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