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Uh-oh. Riots in Istanbul not good...


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The thing is, one of aspects of Madrid's messages that has been puzzling me is its mixed messages on the economy and why it needs the games. On the one hand, the team has been proudly (and justifiably) pointing out how much infrastructure it has in place already to stage a games and how its investment would be minimal to make it happen. On the other hand, it has made numerous statements that it "needs" the games to stimulate its economy and boost employment. Just seems to me contradictory messages.

Good to see Madrilenos getting so supportive of greater democracy in Turkey, though!

Edited by Sir Rols
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and it all starts to save 4 trees in a park. after reyhanlı bombing, alcohol banning, applause for PKK terrorists, stop celebrations for national days with some reasons... this park project i think

Anti-Turks, oh dear. Any criticism and you're a hater it seems. Please, you've got to do better than that. What's happened recently in Turkey isn't good, does raises questions over security, and if yo

I'm not making excuses for Erdogan. As you may know, I'm not very sympathetic to conservative politics, which he is. At a basic level, he is far more moderate and restrained than Putin- who is dubious

You can be ill, but go to the office, maybe at the end of the day your work is fully succesfull (that depends on the person and his circumstances).

I dont understand what you said about Istanbul, I didt say anything about it.

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As far as I understand things as they stand, the current events in Istanbul have deeply and likely fatally damaged Istanbul. As Puppy and POV have said numerous times previously the Turks are not the most popular or powerful within the IOC and this is not helping. Madrid is not completely out of this and it seems like the Russians and Chinese will support Madrid over Istanbul to prevent a Japanese win. el Moutawakel has also been less than supportive and Gosper and Coates are actively campaigning for Tokyo. The North American vote will also likely fall on their own aspirations to vote for Tokyo.

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Sending in the troops?

The Turkish government has said it may use the armed forces to end nearly three weeks of unrest by protesters in Istanbul and other cities.

The government would use "all its powers" and "the Turkish armed forces in cities" if necessary, Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said on TV.

It is the first time the Islamist-rooted ruling party has threatened to use the military against protesters.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22938860#%22

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Sending in the troops?

The Turkish government has said it may use the armed forces to end nearly three weeks of unrest by protesters in Istanbul and other cities.

The government would use "all its powers" and "the Turkish armed forces in cities" if necessary, Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said on TV.

It is the first time the Islamist-rooted ruling party has threatened to use the military against protesters.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22938860#%22

This government is losing all respect with the international community. Use the military in your own peoe be ause they want to save some trees. Forget right and wrong for a moment. Doesn't simple self-interest suggest the government would get farther if they just gave the people their trees? This is unbelievable. Erdogan has torpedoed his own country's bid.

That should've read "Use the military on your own people because they want to save some trees?"

I do realize there are more than trees at stake here....

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There are currently riots in Brazil that are at a similar scale to Turkey..The motivation behind the riots aren't too distant from some of the reasons behind the Turkish protests...so if people think that Istanbul would not be prepared as a result 7 years from now...what does that say about Brazil who have the WC next year and the OG in 3 years

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Indeed. Compare and contrast:

Brazil's President Dilma Rousseff says massive protests across the country represent legitimate calls for better public services.

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Interestingly enough, my parents were in Istanbul last year. My father had a chance to review the plans for the new Taksim Square. For what it's worth, he quite liked the plans and said that they would introduce some NEW green spaces. He said that currently the square is an unattractive bus park with a few trees at one end. The new plans would create a much more appealing public gathering place with a historically accurate reconstruction of some Ottoman barracks that were once located in the square. He felt the new plan would be a dramatic improvement that would benefit both locals and tourists while increasing green space.

Obviously at this point the debate is about far more than just the plans for the square, but I thought my dad's perspective was very interesting.

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Indeed. Compare and contrast:

Brazil's President Dilma Rousseff says massive protests across the country represent legitimate calls for better public services.

This. Also, there's the will of a negotiation between the protesters and the government in Brazil.

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You're not wrong about Taksim Sq Athensfan. Last week, I was chatting with some friends I went to Istanbul with a couple of years ago, and I asked them, because I couldn't remember, whether Taksim Sq was the place I thought it was, because I didn't remember it being particularly memorable. It was.

It's at one end of what I'd call Istanbul's Oxford Street, has a coach park at one side and an extremely busy and dangerous road the other side. We didn't spend long there!

Obviously I'm not a local so my superficial impression of it as a chaotic traffic island almost certainly doesn't paint the whole picture of its historic importance. And of course whether the initial protestors are right or wrong it's gone way beyond that now.

Edited by RobH
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I don't even remember Taksim. I just remember the Hippodrome and the area between the Blue Mosque and the Cistern. Can't quite recall where that friggin's square was.

But I think the Istanbulis want to turn the space into a legendary Times Square, Tienamen Square, Red Square, Tahrir Sqaure, Union Square, St. Peter's Plaza, etc., etc.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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I think it is great to see what it's happening at the moment in Turkey! That means the Turkish society is getting mature and taking a good direction to improve their social status within the international community. Better to see riots facing their dissents in public squares than "Pussy riots" singing their protests in churches and then being handcuffed and condemned for more than 2 years in jail in old Olympic cities. I also don't remember any Chinese citizen did any protest about anything, before, during or after the bidding process or the games, do you?

The IOC is not surprised neither worried about these matters, because it's so common that they just have to check back Olympic history to realise it is even a good step for better conditions at any host city.

Anyway for Tokyo "it's good fishing in troubled waters" while Istanbul and Madrid are having their little crisis. bUT

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I think it is great to see what it's happening at the moment in Turkey! That means the Turkish society is getting mature and taking a good direction to improve their social status within the international community. Better to see riots facing their dissents in public squares than "Pussy riots" singing their protests in churches and then being handcuffed and condemned for more than 2 years in jail in old Olympic cities. I also don't remember any Chinese citizen did any protest about anything, before, during or after the bidding process or the games, do you?

The IOC is not surprised neither worried about these matters, because it's so common that they just have to check back Olympic history to realise it is even a good step for better conditions at any host city.

Anyway for Tokyo "it's good fishing in troubled waters" while Istanbul and Madrid are having their little crisis. bUT

Exactly. I mean the Yanks rebelled in 1774-76; got their first Olympics in 1904 (so that was 129 years' passage). The Parisians rioted in 1789; then got the Olympics first in 1900 (111 years). The Russians rebelled in 1917 and then won the Games in 1973 (56 years). The Chinese rioted in 1989; and then won the Olympics in 2001 (12 years). So maybe the time will get compressed; and the Turks are protesting now; and may just win the big one in 3 months!!

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Well I have to admit i'm glad that Dilma acted like a true democrat and accepted the reality of Brazil's social problems and accepted to dialogue with the protesters (although she might be doing that because all the world's media is staring at Brazil now because of the Confecup and she doesn't want them to make comparisons between her and Erdogan)

Speaking of Erdogan, this article is in Spanish but it mentions that he's planning to even block access to social network in Turkey to prevent provocations :blink:

http://www.abc.es/internacional/20130618/abci-turquia-redes-sociales-201306181832.html

I was kinda supportive of Istanbul's bid some months ago but this whole thing makes me thing if it is a good idea to give the games to such a jackass government. Even Madrid looks more realistic at this moment.

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There is two ways the Brazilian demonstrations can affect Istanbul's bid:

Either it will make IOC more reluctant to commit to "unstable" regions (not that I adopt this view).

Or it will show them that a couple of demonstrations are not affecting the viability of the bid.

Either way they will have enough excuses to tell foe their choice of vote! ;)

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There is two ways the Brazilian demonstrations can affect Istanbul's bid:

Either it will make IOC more reluctant to commit to "unstable" regions (not that I adopt this view).

Or it will show them that a couple of demonstrations are not affecting the viability of the bid.

Either way they will have enough excuses to tell foe their choice of vote! ;)

I understand this point, and I would agree with that, but I think the principal difference between both countries in this situation is the government's type of response. Even with low points, the brazilian government is having a democratic response, trying to negociate with the protesters and making damage control with political strategics. In Turkey, on the other hand, we have hard hand and attacks against the protesters making the situation worse -Or at least in image-.

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Indeed. Compare and contrast:

Brazil's President Dilma Rousseff says massive protests across the country represent legitimate calls for better public services.

Probably has a lot to do with the fact that Dilma Rousseff once did the same thing as a youth against the Military regime, which resulted in her imprisonment and torture.

Looks like Belarus may not be "Europe's Last Dictatorship."

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How is Istanbul 2020 going to deal with the "Erdogan problem" now?

Having him present to the IOC at large would probably go down like a lead balloon. But he's going to want to be there isn't he, presenting his nation's bid to the IOC? He doesn't strike me as someone who'll shirk the limelight.

A tricky one. He'll be noticed if he's there for all the wrong reasons which Istanbul 2020 won't want to drag up again. But he'll be noticed (perhaps even more) if he's absent.

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How is Istanbul 2020 going to deal with the "Erdogan problem" now?

Having him present to the IOC at large would probably go down like a lead balloon. But he's going to want to be there isn't he, presenting his nation's bid to the IOC? He doesn't strike me as someone who'll shirk the limelight.

A tricky one. He'll be noticed if he's there for all the wrong reasons which Istanbul 2020 won't want to drag up again. But he'll be noticed (perhaps even more) if he's absent.

I think that Istanbul Turkey 2020 bid is now dead where ever Erdogan speaks or not in Argentina, Erdogan really killed the Istanbul Bid and Turkey support in the world Turkey is a laughing spot in the world now since he took power he is not like Lula or Putin at all don't really have a great standing in the world.

It's too soon for Spain to host another Summer Olympics but I say to Spain go for the 2022 Winter Olympics and Paralympics Games with Barcelona I think that Spain has a real shot for hosting the 2022 Winter Games 1st Winter Games in Western Europe and the 1st Winter Games at the Mediterranean Sea.

Tokyo Japan has this in the bag now and I think they will win this in the 1st round of voting.

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Ah, this is the type of assessment I like to read:

David Owen: A bridge too far for latest Istanbul Olympic bid?

The bridge is the dominant metaphor of the Istanbul 2020 Olympic bid, as testified by its slogan, "Bridge together".

You can understand why: the bridge between Europe and Asia; bridges across the Bosphorus; or, as bid chairman Hasan Arat, put it on Saturday (June 15) in the Olympic capital of Lausanne at the Extraordinary General Assembly of the Association of National Olympic Committees (ANOC): "Istanbul offers the Olympic Movement a bridge to a new culture; to a region and a people who have never hosted the Olympic Games before."

A potential problem for the bid, though, is that Turkey has also been seen, I suspect, by some in the Movement as a bridge to the Gulf - or more prosaically, as a majority-Muslim alternative that could forestall for another few Olympiads the steadily mounting pressure for the Games to go to the Gulf.

This means that when something goes wrong, like Taksim Square and the torrent of unfavourable international media coverage the handling of the protests there has provoked, there may be a greater tendency for that support to melt away than backing based on the specific - very manifest - qualities of Istanbul as an Olympic host and the merits of its Games plan.

With nearly three months to go before the crucial vote in Buenos Aires, I don't think the situation is yet terminal for this imaginative bid with its promise of an amphitheatre for the Games every bit as spectacular as that offered by Rio de Janeiro, the next Summer Games host.

Any bid winner requires a coalition of different brands of support.

Moreover, as has been observed elsewhere, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) is very much a fan of strong political leadership.

As I write, there may still be enough room for manoeuvre - just - to enable Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan to emerge with authority shaken but not undermined while placating some of the protesters and enabling bid leaders to laud a mature, tolerant, secular democracy, as National Olympic Committee of Turkey President Uğur Erdener tried to do in Lausanne.

That said, I saw it reported that the protests had achieved the difficult feat of uniting - bridging together? - supporters of the city's three rival football clubs, suggesting that grievances are widely shared.

As my friend, the eminent football writer Simon Kuper Tweeted, alluding also to Egypt, "Wish I could rewrite Football Against the Enemy".

So who stands to be the main beneficiary of Istanbul's present discomfort?

My first inclination would be to say Tokyo, whose bid has achieved a lot more traction than last time around, when it finished third in the 2016 race.

But, actually, it may also have let Madrid back into the game.

Alejandro Blanco, the Spanish capital's bid leader, has said that Spain's new anti-doping law will add to the bid's credibility.

I would say it was indispensable if Madrid 2020 were not to be dead in the water.

Nonetheless, having bid now on three consecutive occasions, the West European candidate can legitimately claim credit for its persistence - just like the 2018 Winter Games winner, Pyeongchang.

And London 2012's success may work in favour of the tried and trusted over the adventurous and new - particularly in light of rumblings over Rio 2016's progress and the still delicate state of the global economy.

The Spanish city also tends to perform strongly in the first round of voting, although it is campaigning this time without the inimitable presence of Juan Antonio Samaranch senior, the late former IOC President.

If it can supplement its core vote with some latecomers, switching from the Istanbul camp, then we could once again have a surprise first-round casualty at the vote in Buenos Aires.

I must say I also slightly fear for the impact that the simultaneous race for the IOC Presidency might have on the Turkish bid's chances.

I sense an incipient dilution in the apparent antipathy I have often felt in Olympic circles for the notion of hosting a Summer Games in the Gulf.

This may, in part, be a by-product of the courting of IOC members from the Gulf region - who include Kuwait's increasingly influential Sheikh Ahmad Al-Fahad Al-Sabah, the ANOC President - by candidates for the top job.

But I would be surprised if the new IOC leadership did not appear less hesitant than the present incumbents about the whole idea of a Gulf Olympics, perhaps as soon as 2024.

And if a Gulf Games is becoming a more attractive prospect, then why would you need to forestall it by voting for Istanbul?

The sheer number of high-level decisions that IOC members are being required to take in quick succession makes calling the outcome of any particular race more than usually hazardous.

But it is hard to concoct any "spin" under which this has been a good month for Istanbul 2020

Insidethegames

Just shows you, with this type of article now appearing, how this race has turned on its head from just a few weeks ago. Interesting to see I'm not alone in my feelings/fears about Madrid.

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Very thoughtful article. Well balanced.

The last point about the sheer number of important decisions is one that I've been thinking about lately.

2020 host city

President

Executive Committee members

New sport.

That's a lot of data for the IOC to examine. Will they give each question the time and attention it deserves? Or will they focus on one or two decisions and go with a less informed "gut feeling" on others?

If they aren't careful, there could be some startling accidental outcomes.

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