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baron-pierreIV

Uh-oh. Riots in Istanbul not good...

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Bloody hell, keep safe Turkey. This doesn't look good.

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to be honest i dont care about 2020 games today....

people dying here for democracy and freedom tonight...

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All of this is very significant for Istanbul's bid.

Suppression of free speech?

Elimination of green spaces?

Government sponsored brutality?

None of that is at all in line with Olympic ideals.

If this were happening in September, I would say it could be fatal to the bid. They do have a few months to do damage control and mend their ways, but they seriously need to get their act together. Erdogan is systematically repealing much of the progress made by his predecessors and it is quite disturbing.

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Erdogan is bad news. I think it's shocking that there are plans to build upon Taksim Square- it's a wonderful public space and I imagine it would be a centre of activity in 2020.

From an urban planning perspective, a public square is more than just its physical existence- it represents the ability to masses to congregate for any reason they wish.

Believe it or not, after 1989, Beijing considered filling up the remaining ends of Tiannamen Sq with public buildings- they had already successfully put Mao's tomb in the middle in the 70's (which completely destroys the vista).

As for how detrimental this is to the bid, we'll wait and see after the dust settles. The IOC has a proven record of being rather evasive as to how important a states political status is. One size does not fit all.

All of this is very significant for Istanbul's bid.

Suppression of free speech?

Elimination of green spaces?

Government sponsored brutality?

None of that is at all in line with Olympic ideals.

And yet China and Russia both are proving reliable options of the IOC lately. Brazil, while not in this league, still isn't at the same standard as Europe, Canada or Australia. IIRC Turkey ranks relatively higher than China or Russia in terms of liberties.

Edited by runningrings

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And yet China and Russia both are proving reliable options of the IOC lately. Brazil, while not in this league, still isn't at the same standard as Europe, Canada or Australia. IIRC Turkey ranks relatively higher than China or Russia in terms of liberties.

Which just goes to show how much the IOC actually believes in Olympic ideals.

The governments of China and Russia may prove reliable for the IOC, but at what cost to their own people?

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Which just goes to show how much the IOC actually believes in Olympic ideals.

The governments of China and Russia may prove reliable for the IOC, but at what cost to their own people?

Well, that's another discussion. I'm of the personal and political belief that democracy would not work (in the way you and I understand it as American or Australian) in a country as complex as China. As I said, one size does to fit all. There is a reason why fast developing and prosperous countries (the ones that can afford to host the Olympics, truly) are generally less democratic and offer (sometimes admittedly- look at Kagame in Rwanda) fewer liberties than somewhere like Norway or New Zealand. This begs the question of if the Olympics truly belongs to the world, or just the countries that subscribe to truly democratic ideals? The IOC is no stranger to going for options with dubious democratic freedoms: Japan (back then), Mexico, USSR, Yugoslavia, South Korea, China and the new Russian Federation and to a lesser extent, Brazil.

I need to make it clear that I don't support what the AKP are doing, but I still maintain that Turkey is generally going in the right direction in many ways, and the Olympics has the potential to expose and put pressure on things to improve.

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. IIRC Turkey ranks relatively higher than China or Russia in terms of liberties.

This is correct. Freedom House ranks Turkey as partly free and Russia and China as not free.

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Even from my experience of having visited all three countries - Turkey was by far the most relaxed and easy going- Russia was suffocating at some points.

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And all this will bring up Erdogan's other foolhardy U.N. idea of having 'religious ridicule" legislated as 'criminal' on a global basis. Have we forgotten that already?

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And all this will bring up Erdogan's other foolhardy U.N. idea of having 'religious ridicule" legislated as 'criminal' on a global basis. Have we forgotten that already?

I'm not making excuses for Erdogan. As you may know, I'm not very sympathetic to conservative politics, which he is. At a basic level, he is far more moderate and restrained than Putin- who is dubiously involved with Syria.

These events in Istanbul are not good, and its hard to say how much it will impact the bid- but sensationalism aside, viewing it in context and its not surprising, nor would I regard it as in anyway reflective of Istanbul's ability to stage the Olympics. These protests are linked to the Occupy movement and much of the protesters rhetoric (or what's been reported) relates to the AKP's conservatism; both social and economic. As I've mentioned in another thread, whilst Turkey has a growing middle class, there is a big split between the wealth of Istanbul and the poorer, and more provincial eastern Turkey.

Edited by runningrings
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And a base level there is ground to compare this kind of unrest with the Battle of Seattle and London more than something like Egypt, or the Russia in recent years.

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And a base level there is ground to compare this kind of unrest with the Battle of Seattle and London more than something like Egypt, or the Russia in recent years.

In terms of initial motive this might be closer to Western riots than the so-called Arab Spring. At least initially it seemed to be some kind of Occupy movement motivated by anti-corporate land grabbing (though what it's since developed into and the fact Turkish TV is not covering it (!) bears more resemblance to what happened in Egypt I think).

But in terms of police response this has been a very nasty few days which bears no resemblance to what happened in London in the 2011 riots (where the police response was actually too slow).

People have been killed by police in Taksim because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are some really nasty pictures on Twitter which I'm not going to post here, but you can easily find yourself if you want. I know the Olympics pales into insignificance for Turks today, and I know some people will use this as an argument against Istanbul 2020 by saying the country isn't stable enough politically. For me, it's simpler than that though. From what I've seen, I really wouldn't want this police force in charge of a Games-time security operation. The thought of it is terrifying.

I'm hearing tens of thousands travelling into Istanbul from other regions of Turkey to make their voices heard this morning. I hope they stay safe.

Edited by RobH

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In terms of initial motive this might be closer to Western riots than the so-called Arab Spring. At least initially it seemed to be some kind of Occupy movement motivated by anti-corporate land grabbing (though what it's since developed into and the fact Turkish TV is not covering it (!) bears more resemblance to what happened in Egypt I think).

But in terms of police response this has been a very nasty few days which bears no resemblance to what happened in London in the 2011 riots (where the police response was actually too slow).

People have been killed by police in Taksim because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are some really nasty pictures on Twitter which I'm not going to post here, but you can easily find yourself if you want. I know the Olympics pales into insignificance for Turks today, and I know some people will use this as an argument against Istanbul 2020 by saying the country isn't stable enough politically. For me, it's simpler than that though. From what I've seen, I really wouldn't want this police force in charge of a Games-time security operation. The thought of it is terrifying.

I'm hearing tens of thousands travelling into Istanbul from other regions of Turkey to make their voices heard this morning. I hope they stay safe.

971128_10151511708683402_992364549_n.jpg

the first bridge closed, hundreds of busses around turkey leading to istanbul to support, no one sleept here yesterday

http://rt.com/on-air/turkey-clashes-istanbul-park/

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People have been killed by police in Taksim because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are some really nasty pictures on Twitter which I'm not going to post here, but you can easily find yourself if you want. I know the Olympics pales into insignificance for Turks today, and I know some people will use this as an argument against Istanbul 2020 by saying the country isn't stable enough politically. For me, it's simpler than that though. From what I've seen, I really wouldn't want this police force in charge of a Games-time security operation. The thought of it is terrifying.

What about China? What about Russia? I'm fiercely opposed to police brutality, but until we know the finer details - how are we able to view this situation subjectively?

Also - I'm not actually aware of any confirmed fatalities?

We've had Madrid's doping scandal, Tokyo's comments, and now Istanbul's riots. Certainly, none of these bids have it easy, thats for sure.

971128_10151511708683402_992364549_n.jpg

the first bridge closed, hundreds of busses around turkey leading to istanbul to support, no one sleept here yesterday

http://rt.com/on-air/turkey-clashes-istanbul-park/

Wow. This imagine is monumental. Talk about proof of the desire to go left within Turkey.

Edited by runningrings

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and it all starts to save 4 trees in a park.

after reyhanlı bombing, alcohol banning, applause for PKK terrorists, stop celebrations for national days with some reasons...

this park project i think the last drop for most of all...

kurds turks leftist right wings tens of thousands uprising against governmet and police. fenerbahçe fans saved by galatasaray fans from police, prostitutes and travesties open their homes for injuried ones in taksim. 5 star hotels close the doors to polices to save supporters inside, churches mosques full with people escaping from police, many worldwide chains give free food and milk lemon that affected from gas bombs in taksim. soldiers and army start to support with masks and medics supporters.

its a good day for turkey and democracy. even if nothing changes after this at least government see the power of citizens

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and it all starts to save 4 trees in a park.

after reyhanlı bombing, alcohol banning, applause for PKK terrorists, stop celebrations for national days with some reasons...

this park project i think the last drop for most of all...

kurds turks leftist right wings tens of thousands uprising against governmet and police. fenerbahçe fans saved by galatasaray fans from police, prostitutes and travesties open their homes for injuried ones in taksim. 5 star hotels close the doors to polices to save supporters inside, churches mosques full with people escaping from police, many worldwide chains give free food and milk lemon that affected from gas bombs in taksim. soldiers and army start to support with masks and medics supporters.

its a good day for turkey and democracy. even if nothing changes after this at least government see the power of citizens

Protest can be a successful mechanism for the people to coerce Government into change. Hopefully this is an example of that process.

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Protest can be a successful mechanism for the people to coerce Government into change. Hopefully this is an example of that process.

although i think its a plus for 2020 bid...

fighting for democracy, environment freedom :)

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although i think its a plus for 2020 bid...

fighting for democracy, environment freedom :)

Well, it is the responsibility of the Government to show that it can be a good thing for the 2020 bid, right now that is unclear. I'm holding my breath as this unfolds, it has the potential to break the bid, or underline its profound meaning. There is no doubt that there is a deeply engaged generation of people in Turkey. I hope these events are the start of positive change.

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although i think its a plus for 2020 bid...

fighting for democracy, environment freedom :)

Except the people who'll be asking for the Games for Istanbul are the people on the wrong side of this fight.

Sorry, I can't see this being a good thing for 2020. If the IOC cares about democracy and freedom, then having Erdogan presenting Istanbul's bid to them in September will go down like a lead balloon. If they don't care (which I think was runningring's point in bringing up Russia and China), then these scenes hardly paint the picture of stability and security they'd want to be seeing.

I can't see this being a good thing for Istanbul 2020 whichever way you look at it.

Hopefully, and much more importantly, it'll be a good thing for Turkey though. As you say, if nothing else it'll make your government realise the strength of feeling out there.

971128_10151511708683402_992364549_n.jpg

the first bridge closed, hundreds of busses around turkey leading to istanbul to support, no one sleept here yesterday

http://rt.com/on-air/turkey-clashes-istanbul-park/

"Bridge Together" indeed - wow!

Edited by RobH

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What about China? What about Russia? I'm fiercely opposed to police brutality, but until we know the finer details - how are we able to view this situation subjectively?

Also - I'm not actually aware of any confirmed fatalities?

We've had Madrid's doping scandal, Tokyo's comments, and now Istanbul's riots. Certainly, none of these bids have it easy, thats for sure.

Wow. This imagine is monumental. Talk about proof of the desire to go left within Turkey.

Sorry I don't think huge riots is on the same scale as Tokyo's comments. China was somewhere the IOC really wanted to go to. Russia seems like a huge mistake on behalf of the IOC blown up budget, corruption scandals etc.

It is definitely something you don't want a few months before the vote. Yes London has 2011 riots and the bombings but both occured after they were named host.

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I don't think it will have a huge impact on voting.

The images are impressive, but it only a few seconds of news abroad (i watched Swiss, French, UK and US news to get an idea). And this is more than 3 months before the vote.

So if the protestation do not length till September, no worries for Istanbul 2020 !

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Maybe some people in the 2020 team will split off and use the 'democracy' stance as their 'new' storyline!! But actually, this is good for Turkey!! Maybe they'll get rid of the SOB Erdogan!

And maybe ex-pat Turks living in Buenos Aires might add some flavor too, to the IOC meeting! ;)

Edited by baron-pierreIV

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