Madrid 2020 Will Set Model for Future Bids: Samaranch

[GBModerator]

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[runningrings]

I know there might be a great deal of gaul on my part to disect the argument of a person closely involved in the IOC, but I noticed some extremely weak points JAS Jr. makes:

“I think that Madrid proposes a new different route – a route I believe will be a route of the future. But you have to use brains instead of dollars. You have to make sure that you use the infrastructure,”

What on earth does this even mean? Is it translated from Spanish? All Olympic hosts and candidates "use the infrastructure".

“There are other [large bid projects] that aren’t big success stories. The mood today is changing. Last time we selected an Olympic city the world was a different world, and now every dollar counts.

Since the big crunch of the GFC in 2008, we've seen the selection of Rio de Janeiro (over Madrid) in 2009, and PyeongChang in 2011. Heres food for thought: Whats the difference between the economy of Spain compared to the likes of Brazil and even South Korea? Yes, the mood is changing - and I'd argue its not to the advantage of stricken Madrid. This "mood" is generally against the reckless spending on UNNECESSARY events like the Olympics from candidates that CANNOT afford such extravagance. This is economics 101.

“Now politicians, sports representatives, people responsible of bids, they have to be accountable for every dollar they spend.”

With the notable exception of Athens and Beijing, haven't all recent Olympics had some sort of accountability in this regard? His comment here also seems totally ignorant of the fact that he talks of the ENTIRE world has having the same political principles as the ones he perceives applicable to Spain. These ideas he puts forward here are NOT applicable to Turkey, for instance, which current has the resources and the growth to fund an Olympic Games.

Samaranch asks “is it reasonable for the IOC to give us the Games under the current economic crisis?”

Short answer: NO.

“Yes, after making all the investment, we have to stay out and try to bring home the financial and social return of the Games.”

“It would be stupid and irresponsible not to continue bidding.”

The sheer idiocy of the above logic is astounding. This is actually the same mental process a person suffering from a gambling addiction uses to justify their loses, and continue on the downward spiral.

It would be stupid and irresponsible for Madrid to CONTINUE bidding after 2020. Does this mean that Madrid will go on for 2024. If Madrid applies for 2024, and the IOC has a full crop of potential candidates like Paris, Durban, Toronto, Rome and Dubai, I think they should reject Madrid at the application phase. The concept of *Duty of Care* comes to mind.

“The money is already invested there,” Samaranch continued, “it’s already there, we just need to get the Games to make sure we get all of the goodies, the social, the morale and the jumpstart of society.”

The Olympics don't exist simply to be at the disposal of the Spanish, every time their economy hits the skids every quarter of a century. Greece is looking pretty bad too, maybe we should just pencil Athens in for 2024 while we're at it? They too need a return from infrastructure they have already invested in that they couldn't afford. C'mon, by JAS Jr's logic NOT giving Athens 2024 would be "stupid and irresponsible."

“If you make an investment and before seeing a return you walk out – we should be put in jail if we do that.

or maybe just put in an asylum? Or maybe go back to undergraduate school and enrolled in Economics for Dummies.

“It’s the safest choice financially.

LOL - HOW? It is a risk. Look at Athens.

“For the first in many, many Olympic Games we would have the organizing committee, the IOC and the Federations concentrating 90% of their effort in sport and athletes; no delivery company for the Games, delays, cost overruns.

“We would concentrate exactly on what is important, the Games.

Wait, so one minute JAS Jr. is saying the most important thing about getting the Games is: "we just need to get the Games to make sure we get all of the goodies, the social, the morale and the jumpstart of society..”

.... but in the very same breath he says its all about the athletes, and not the delivery of the Games. What cost delays is he even talking about? Beijing? London? They were impeccably organised events, right down to the last detail. Do we really think that an organising committee working in a nation with a crippled economy and a tight budget would really have more room to move than London or Beijing in terms of delivering the Games on time?

His comment too that Madrid 2020 would be the "first in many many Games" to put the athletes first is somewhat offensive to the efforts of previous host cities, London and Sydney in particular here come to mind. Those Games were lauded for their specific emphasis on the athlete. Athens and Beijing, despite their relative extravagance, were still athlete centric Olympics - all Olympics are really.

“Although it’s counter-intuitive because of the things you read about us financially, the IOC will not be afraid because from a financial perspective it is very sound coming to Madrid – and we have to make sure the message gets through.”

Its counter intuitive because people's intuition is probably guiding them in the right direction: Tokyo or Istanbul. When those *alarm bells* ring, its probably a good idea to listen. Just because you say something, doesn't make it true. JAS Jr's level of blind, PR driven rhetoric is astounding, I couldn't help but dissect his drivel like this. I already loathe the nepotism that got JAS Jr. into his position of power, but now I loathe it even more seeing he doesn't seem to have the basic ability to grasp reality.

The message is getting through, loud and clear. Madrid 2020 is desperate, and in a tail spin. IMO it is literally the worst Olympic bid so far of the 21st century. Enjoy failure.

[Olympic Fan Darcy]

Ahh this is so hard!

I feel bad for Madrid 3 bid races in a row but economically it's just not the right time. I still think they'd rate above Istanbul in most categories for the evauation but it's the money that is most important.

[Athan]

Still, this man is far more powerful within the IOC than many of us thought, and there is modern pentathlon to prove it. I don't know if that will be enough for Madrid to get the Games, but I don't think it's impossible for it to reach the second round of the voting (if there's a second round). The plan itself is the best Madrid has ever had, the bid and its circumstances are obviously not. However, previous races have shown that being technically the best or the worst doesn't guarantee anything. Being as objective as I can, I wouldn't completely rule out Madrid yet.

[runningrings]

Still, this man is far more powerful within the IOC than many of us thought, and there is modern pentathlon to prove it. I don't know if that will be enough for Madrid to get the Games, but I don't think it's impossible for it to reach the second round of the voting (if there's a second round). The plan itself is the best Madrid has ever had, the bid and its circumstances are obviously not. However, previous races have shown that being technically the best or the worst doesn't guarantee anything. Being as objective as I can, I wouldn't completely rule out Madrid yet.

All this will prove is that JAS Jr. is as corrupt as is father. He has all the hallmarks of a spoilt brat, who has not earned the right to his current position. He certainly lacks legitimacy. Even his own history is dubious, I read last year that he is thought to have accessed corporate scholarship that is for charity to fund his own US college education, even though the Samaranch family could well afford it. & the ModPent decision is largely attributed to have come down to his meddling. It is people like JAS Jr. that are responsible for the problems now facing countries like Spain and Greece.

As for Madrid ranking any further than 3rd, I think it would reveal something very, very wrong with the IOC's internal processes. 3rd place so obviously belongs to Madrid in this race, its plain as day.

[Rob2012]

Madrid should try not to come across as too prescriptive, as if it has all the answers. It needs to sell its bid without coming across as preachy because what's right for Madrid won't be for most other cities - there's more than one way to skin a cat. And don't forget, this is the same country which used an Olympics only two decades ago to leverage a complete overhaul of one of its cities. Why is it now bemoaning other bids which are seeking to do the same? In this context, this argument doesn't seem sincere, unless they're disowning their previous Games.

[FYI]

LMFAO! Runningrings, the Dick Pound of Gamesbids?! Let's not leave things for second-guessing! Let's put those contradicting & desperate Spaniards in their place! I LUV IT! JAS JR also forgot to mention their total jealousy of Barcelona, too!

And while MP is one thing, I think the big controversial step (& uproar) to have Wrestling compete for a continued spot in the Olympics (which was also his doing) isn't going to win them any votes, either. So that's a wash. Not to mention the Operation Puerto debacle that could also make an impact.

And how can anyone say that they're being "objective" & still say at the same time that they wouldn't rule out Madrid just yet. Talk about an oxymoron. The Madrid 2020 bid is just filled with double-standards & desperation. They're "tired" of the "austerity label" but yet that's how they've been selling they're bid virtually all along. Now they're gonna spin it a different way. Would they have ever sold their bid like this if Spain's economy didn't need some Zoloft. No, they wouldn't. They'd be doing the opposite of their current finger-pointing of "the IOC needs to start focusing on cost-effectiveness".

[Athensfan]

Here's the thing though: I think it's a mistake to assume that the IOC members subject the bids to rigorous intellectual analysis. I think many of them may well not look beneath the surface of a bid. If you don't do any digging, on the face of it Samaranch's position is somewhat persuasive. I can see it working on some people -- not all of them, but some.

[Sir Rols]

LOL - I like running's analysis (even if i sense it's coloured a lot by his enthusiasm for istanbul).

Seriously, though, and I'm not saying I expect or even would like Madrid to get the games, and the way they're articulating it seems contradictory (as rr points out), but when the IOC gets so much stick over the extravagance and scale of recent games (and in light of the latest critiques coming in over Sochi's spending/corruption), a plan like Madrid's with so much already in place and trying to offer a cut-price games SHOULD be a good selling point. Of course, though, as so many of us point out, does that really matter to the IOC if they have other bidders willing to stage the extravaganza on the scale they like their showpiece event to be?

It really does look like mixed messages from Madrid, also. It's all very well they're pitching it as a games for the "athletes", but everyone claims that somewhere in their pitches. After that, it all seems to be more about what the games would do for Madrid, rather than the other way around. I don't think the IOC's ever been swayed by the "We NEED the games" argument.

[Olympic Fan Darcy]

As for Madrid ranking any further than 3rd, I think it would reveal something very, very wrong with the IOC's internal processes. 3rd place so obviously belongs to Madrid in this race, its plain as day.

For the evaluation report I think they might rank higher than istanbul but the new frontier for Istanbul will win more votes for Istanbul

[runningrings]

I've never denied that currently technically Madrid has the upper hand on Istanbul - the main difference being that Istanbul has the resources of a fast growing nation of 70 or so million people to back up big plans for its Olympic Park and other infrastructure. Ultimately Madrid is not avoiding this type of plan because it has the choice - it's avoiding it because it simply can't match it. Istanbul gives to the IOC as much as it will take. Madrid's bid just sees the Olympics as a product to be consumed. If the Olympics were annual, I'd probably support Madrid's claim, but it is simply too rare to delegate to a nation that has hosted as recently as 1992 and for the reasons it has.

[FYI]

The funny thing is, that even Samaranch himself 'advised' Madrid not bid for 2016. That London already hosting 2012 was their biggest obstacle. Having further said, when the majority in Madrid wanted to bid nontheless, all he could was to help in any way that he could. So it seems that it wasn't totally his doing.

I'm gonna find it difficult to see that Madrid will top this evaluation. They didn't for 2016, the Evaluation Committee citing that their bid committee "didn't fully understand the Games concept". This time, with their economy outta whack, the Evaluation Report will have an opportunity to even further question their concept. Anyway you look at it, Madrid is not the best option on the table this time around.

[runningrings]

Yep, there is no room for them. Tokyo has the technical aspect covered; Istanbul the emotive.

[Athan]

And how can anyone say that they're being "objective" & still say at the same time that they wouldn't rule out Madrid just yet.

Because of the way Olympic hosts are chosen. It depends totally on the subjectivity of just 100 people. Once a bid has passed the first cut, it all comes down basically to how well they can sell themselves to the IOC members and, at the moment, Spain has much more presence within the IOC than Turkey and Japan. As I said before, this is probably not enough for Madrid to win (actually I don't think Madrid's going to win), but sure it's not a disadvantage.

[Olympic Fan Darcy]

The funny thing is, that even Samaranch himself 'advised' Madrid not bid for 2016. That London already hosting 2012 was their biggest obstacle. Having further said, when the majority in Madrid wanted to bid nontheless, all he could was to help in any way that he could. So it seems that it wasn't totally his doing.

I'm gonna find it difficult to see that Madrid will top this evaluation. They didn't for 2016, the Evaluation Committee citing that their bid committee "didn't fully understand the Games concept". This time, with their economy outta whack, the Evaluation Report will have an opportunity to even further question their concept. Anyway you look at it, Madrid is not the best option on the table this time around.

Yeah I don't think they'll top the evaluation seeing as Tokyo topped 2016. However, I don't think Istanbul will score better then Madrid. I agree Madrid isn't right to host it if only there economy was better. They would still score good in most areas but finance "should" let them down but me thinks the IOC will throw them a 7.

[FYI]

Because of the way Olympic hosts are chosen. It depends totally on the subjectivity of just 100 people. Once a bid has passed the first cut, it all comes down basically to how well they can sell themselves to the IOC members and, at the moment, Spain has much more presence within the IOC than Turkey and Japan. As I said before, this is probably not enough for Madrid to win (actually I don't think Madrid's going to win), but sure it's not a disadvantage.

Yes, I know all this already. But it's precisely these fastidious-natured 99 individuals, that will get to vote on 2020, why Madrid will have a very hard time. Any one of them could vote for something as trivial that they may not like the colors of the Spanish flag. And while Spain does have more representation than Turkey, & maybe Japan, within the IOC, this only means something under normal circumstances.

Right now, Spain's economy is in shambles. They've caused an uproar in the wrestling community & there's still Operation Puerto. Not to mention, a Madrid 2020 win, would block ambitions from other European countries that could make a run for 2024. So I can't see any of those supporting Madrid, let alone vote for them.

And then of course, there's still the Barcelona effect which still not enough time has passed for a country of Spain's size & influence. What Spain should do is go for a Winter bid & really get behind it, they would have a MUCH stronger case in that scenario. But apparently, the Castillan-Based SOC is so blindly focused on a Madrid Summer Games. And if you don't think that Madrid will win anyway, what exactly is the point you're trying to make then.

[Athan]

Precisely the fact that wrestling is a historical sport that nobody could imagine being dropped from the Olympics shows Samaranch's power. If he could save modern pentathlon from the cut against the interests of the majority, he could also help Madrid get much more votes than what could have been expected in other circumstances. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

[Athensfan]

Precisely the fact that wrestling is a historical sport that nobody could imagine being dropped from the Olympics shows Samaranch's power. If he could save modern pentathlon from the cut against the interests of the majority, he could also help Madrid get much more votes than what could have been expected in other circumstances. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

And that's a fair point.

I wonder if the IOC regrets their wrestling decision though. If they do, perhaps it will backfire against Jr. and, by extension, Madrid.

[FYI]

I wonder if the IOC regrets their wrestling decision though. If they do, perhaps it will backfire against Jr. and, by extension, Madrid.

And that's precisely what I'm trying to say. So many strong, traditional Wrestling nations, like Japan, Turkey, the U.S. Russia & others are so all up in arms over this controversial step, that I think it could very well backfire on Madrid & Jr.

[baron-pierreIV]

Precisely the fact that wrestling is a historical sport that nobody could imagine being dropped from the Olympics shows Samaranch's power. If he could save modern pentathlon from the cut against the interests of the majority, he could also help Madrid get much more votes than what could have been expected in other circumstances. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

It showed JAS2's influence ONLY w/in the 14 (or 16?) members of the Executive Committee -- and that Wrestling was caught off-guard w/in that small body. But look, once Wrestling got reorganized, it's back as one of the 3 finalists to go before the entire body. And unless he's crazy, I don't think JAS2 will actively campaign vs. Wrestling's ouster. That will turn off votes for Madrid. So his "influence" is really rather limited.

[Frank]

I do not understand why almost all the subscribers are not fair with Madrid. I have not seen any comment either on the very unstable -even critical- situation in Turkey (both inside and from Syria) or on the fact that Japan has organised 3 Olympic Games (last ones Nagano 1998, and Tokyo already organised them in 1964). Do not forget as well that the Spanish economy is starting its reactivation with 7 years ahead till 2020, that a very strict Anti-doping Law will be approved this month by the Spanish Parliament, and focused on Madrid that this city has been twice 2nd in Games votings (1972 and 2016) and once third (2012). If everybody agrees that this time it is presenting its best project and it was assessed as top one in the cut I think it should be chosen by IOC.

[baron-pierreIV]

t the Spanish economy is starting its reactivation with 7 years ahead till 2020,

Then by that logic, Madrid/Spain does not need the Olympics to regenerate its economy!

But don't worry, Frank, I actually prefer Madrid of the 3, especially now with the riots in Turkey!!

[Rob2012]

I do not understand why almost all the subscribers are not fair with Madrid. I have not seen any comment either on the very unstable -even critical- situation in Turkey (both inside and from Syria) or on the fact that Japan has organised 3 Olympic Games (last ones Nagano 1998, and Tokyo already organised them in 1964).

There's been plenty of comment on Turkey's political situation (it's been the most active thread here the last couple of days), and plenty on Tokyo's perceived lack of narrative against a potential new host. Frankly Frank, I don't know what you're talking about!

[FYI]

I just love how some of the Madrid supporters forget about their own "very unstable, even critical situation". What about all those riots in Madrid, Barcelona & all across Spain just a few months ago. And if the Spanish Economy is going to be improved by 2020 anyway, then why is the bid team always harping about that they "need" the Games to jumpstart their dire economy. They're being misleading then. But that was always a farce anyway, since they're touting a "'fiscailly responsible Games' & all the investment is already in place". So how exactly, if this is the case, are the Olympics suppose to jumpstart anything if most of the work is already done.

And while Japan has hosted 3 Olympic Games, their last (& only) Summer Games were in 1964. Their economy is healthy, unlike Spain's ATM. Tokyo is a global metropolis & a global financial capital. But if we want to count the number of Games each country has hosted, Turkey's hosted zero Games.

This situation, atm, might be getting a bit embellished. Especially since once the Evaluation Report comes out next month, which is strictly a techincal assessment of all 3 cities, it's not even gonna mention this current situation in Turkey. Much like the big-hoopla that was being made about the whole Euro 2020 deal, which doesn't even get brought up anymore, all this will be in the rearview mirror come vote time in Buenos Aires in September. Bottom line; with all things being equal & all 3 having their own sort of "baggage", the IOC will choose the best one they think will be the most beneficial to the Olympic Movement. And that's gonna be either a new, exotic, emerging nation with a lot of potential, or a reliable, global financial partner that has proven to the IOC that it can deliver good, efficient & reliable Games.

I actually prefer Madrid of the 3, especially now with the riots in Turkey!!

My Lord. Baron, you flip-flop like a wishy-washy, Washington Politician!

[Sir Rols]

I do not understand why almost all the subscribers are not fair with Madrid. I have not seen any comment either on the very unstable -even critical- situation in Turkey (both inside and from Syria) or on the fact that Japan has organised 3 Olympic Games (last ones Nagano 1998, and Tokyo already organised them in 1964). Do not forget as well that the Spanish economy is starting its reactivation with 7 years ahead till 2020, that a very strict Anti-doping Law will be approved this month by the Spanish Parliament, and focused on Madrid that this city has been twice 2nd in Games votings (1972 and 2016) and once third (2012). If everybody agrees that this time it is presenting its best project and it was assessed as top one in the cut I think it should be chosen by IOC.

You must only be looking in threads with the word "Madrid" in the title. There's at least four threads now discussing the riots in Turkey and its implications for the vote. There's also been a few in recent months discussing things like its blasphemy laws etc, and the instability in Syria has also spilled over in many comments about their bid. And Tokyo hasn't escaped critical scrutiny as well - the gaffes from the Tokyo governor, and the bid team's soul searching for a bid "message" have been among the main discussed bids events of the past few months.