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Rio 2016 Olympic Cauldron


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It's very unsafe because it is just there hanging "limp" in midair. Normally these lines are buried or hidden in some wall or something.

You're completely underestimating the ability of engineering to come up with a solution. What about high tension steel cables - with flexible gas tubes attached? It's not out of the realm of possibility.

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You're completely underestimating the ability of engineering to come up with a solution. What about high tension steel cables - with flexible gas tubes attached? It's not out of the realm of possibility.

Well,

#1 - But when spectators walk in there...it's already hanging in mid-air. So, where's the suspense? Where's the element of surprise? It's completely killed by knowing that it's hanging in mid-air.

#2 - I don't know that the IAAF would allow strange shadows falling on their FoP? Would this strange thing hanging over the middle of the field distract the javelin throwers, the discus throwers? Will it alter their perspective?

#3 - Develop a new metal for "cauldron" use? C'mon. It's just an ornamental, 2-week thing. Yeah, if an Org Committee wants to invest a few million $$ to develop a new metal whose only application is so that "...an Olympic cauldron can float in mid-air"? Huh? :rolleyes: Pls. get real.

#4 - What's to stop large birds (i.e., crows, hawks, even seagulls if it's by a coastal city) from taking a fancy to the piping and settling on there and maybe snapping it at some moment...and incinerating themselves all over again a la Seoul 1988? I'm sure some Org Committee is not looking forward to facing the wrath of PETA and animal lovers---all for this misplaced notion of having an impractical placement of a "17-day" little fire cup. :rolleyes:

There are better, less risky, more practical solutions to the problem.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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Well,

#1 - But when spectators walk in there...it's already hanging in mid-air. So, where's the suspense? Where's the element of surprise? It's completely killed by knowing that it's hanging in mid-air.

Element of surprise? Not all Olympics have a hidden cauldron. In fact, many great cauldrons have not been kept secret - but rather been revealed to the public long before the Olympics as they have had to be constructed - Los Angeles, Seoul, Barcelona, Atlanta, Salt Lake, Athens, Torino...etc.. all come to mind here. All were great cauldrons too, in their own ways. The only element of surprise expected is the final torch bearer.

Anyway, who is to say its there from the start? It could rise from a hole in centre field, a la Athens 2004 props.

#2 - I don't know that the IAAF would allow strange shadows falling on their FoP? Would this strange thing hanging over the middle of the field distract the javelin throwers, the discus throwers? Will it alter their perspective?

While I don't know for sure, I somehow doubt that this would be a serious issue. If this was a concern of the IAAF, I am sure that the organising committee would have the gusto to negotiate with any concerned. Look at Beijing, shadowing was HUGE there and the Games went ahead without a glitch - and at Melbourne 2006 the gigantic ring suspended above the stadium (cauldron template?) didn't really cast that much of a noteworthy shadow.

Besides, I've mentioned this in relation to Sochi 2014 - there will be no FoP.

#3 - Develop a new metal for "cauldron" use? C'mon. It's just an ornamental, 2-week thing. Yeah, if an Org Committee wants to invest a few million $$ to develop a new metal whose only application is so that "...an Olympic cauldron can float in mid-air"? Huh? :rolleyes: Pls. get real.

What's with the attitude? I never said anything about a new metal? I think someone else was saying (to paraphrase) that there would be a lightweight metal available that could be used.

#4 - What's to stop large birds (i.e., crows, hawks, even seagulls if it's by a coastal city) from taking a fancy to the piping and settling on there and maybe snapping it at some moment...and incinerating themselves all over again a la Seoul 1988? I'm sure some Org Committee is not looking forward to facing the wrath of PETA and animal lovers---all for this misplaced notion of having an impractical placement of a "17-day" little fire cup. :rolleyes:

Bird incineration is an issue for any cauldron. As for them sitting on any piping? Who cares? Is this actually a factor you think could potentially stop this idea coming to fruition?

There are better, less risky, more practical solutions to the problem.

More practical? This is an Olympic Cauldron we are talking about here. At the end of the day - it is a folly. It is redundant. It is just burning natural resources to make people feel warm and fuzzy and to continue a trend set at Amsterdam 1928. No Olympic cauldron is practical.

So far all the issues you've raised are not really anything of note that could rule out this option in the future. if the Russians wanted to - they could do this, and they just might.

If cauldron designers over the years kept saying "It cant be done" then we would have never seen three torch bearers be elevated up to the cauldron in 1988, a burning arrow in 1992, a cauldron rise from water, and lift itself to the top of the stadium in 2000, a giant cauldron tilt over to meet the final torch bearer in 2004 or in 2012 to have 200+ small cauldrons on pokey sticks come to together to make one cauldron, only to come apart again . All were amazing , intricate and respectively unbelievable. A suspended cauldron is not out of the realm of possibility, and I'm sure I will see it in my lifetime, if not in 2014.

Edited by runningrings
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I know it's been done at the Pan-Ams and what not, but I think there is a good chance that at some stage someone WILL do an Olympic cauldron overhanging the stadium field. That said, I doubt it will be Rio - it'd just be compared to what they did in 2007.

I've never seen a suspended cauldron anywhere, to be honest. Which Pan American Games are you referring to?

Addendum: The only suspended cauldron I've seen so far was the one used for Lake Placid's closing ceremony in 1980. But they kept it burning for maybe less than an hour, so it was no problem to store enough fuel or gas inside it. Maybe it even contained coal, I don't know that for sure. But I've never seen a suspended cauldron burning at any multisports event for several days.

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Addendum: The only suspended cauldron I've seen so far was the one used for Lake Placid's closing ceremony in 1980. But they kept it burning for maybe less than an hour, so it was no problem to store enough fuel or gas inside it. Maybe it even contained coal, I don't know that for sure. But I've never seen a suspended cauldron burning at any multisports event for several days.

And that was inside, in the Ice House. So it's always easy enuf to rig up gas pipes in the ceiling, if necessary.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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Element of surprise? Not all Olympics have a hidden cauldron. In fact, many great cauldrons have not been kept secret - but rather been revealed to the public long before the Olympics as they have had to be constructed - Los Angeles, Seoul, Barcelona, Atlanta, Salt Lake, Athens, Torino...etc.. all come to mind here. All were great cauldrons too, in their own ways. The only element of surprise expected is the final torch bearer.

Obviously, u r on some sort of retro journey because I believe the trend is toward more unexpected surprises. So I disagree with u.

But I have a solution to this problem: the audience will come in wearing electronically-locked blindfolds which will guide them to their particular seat but the blinds will not come off until darkness has set in. How's that for innovation?? :lol:

While I don't know for sure, I somehow doubt that this would be a serious issue. If this was a concern of the IAAF, I am sure that the organising committee would have the gusto to negotiate with any concerned. Look at Beijing, shadowing was HUGE there and the Games went ahead without a glitch - and at Melbourne 2006 the gigantic ring suspended above the stadium (cauldron template?) didn't really cast that much of a noteworthy shadow.

Besides, I've mentioned this in relation to Sochi 2014 - there will be no FoP.

No; you didn't state that clearly. As for Beijing, it was off to the side, attached to the roof rim, so that was not in any way, shadow-wise of an actual mass, blocking any field paths for the projectiles in play.

Sochi? This is the Rio thread.

What's with the attitude? I never said anything about a new metal? I think someone else was saying (to paraphrase) that there would be a lightweight metal available that could be used.

What attitude? U did say new technology or engineering, didn't u? My reply covered both arguments.

Bird incineration is an issue for any cauldron. As for them sitting on any piping? Who cares? Is this actually a factor you think could potentially stop this idea coming to fruition?

Well, if you don't care...then what can I say? Good luck with the fallout. That's not much forethought u're giving it, r u?

More practical? This is an Olympic Cauldron we are talking about here. At the end of the day - it is a folly. It is redundant. It is just burning natural resources to make people feel warm and fuzzy and to continue a trend set at Amsterdam 1928. No Olympic cauldron is practical.

So far all the issues you've raised are not really anything of note that could rule out this option in the future. if the Russians wanted to - they could do this, and they just might.

If cauldron designers over the years kept saying "It cant be done" then we would have never seen three torch bearers be elevated up to the cauldron in 1988, a burning arrow in 1992, a cauldron rise from water, and lift itself to the top of the stadium in 2000, a giant cauldron tilt over to meet the final torch bearer in 2004 or in 2012 to have 200+ small cauldrons on pokey sticks come to together to make one cauldron, only to come apart again . All were amazing , intricate and respectively unbelievable. A suspended cauldron is not out of the realm of possibility, and I'm sure I will see it in my lifetime, if not in 2014.

Oh please. Now u're just being argumentative. Well, I guess the Russians could burn a few Chechyans or convicted KGB turncoats as they have been known to do on a stake. :rolleyes:

I stand by my original assertions.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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I've never seen a suspended cauldron anywhere, to be honest. Which Pan American Games are you referring to?

Sorry, for some reason I'd always assumed Rio 2007's was suspended. Just checked the youtube clip and it was lit on the ground. I guess the images I've seen of a sun globe hanging over the Maracana infield must have been fanciful renders - and I don't really closely follow, or care about, the whole cauldron speculation as much as many others here (remember, I'm one of the ones who DOESN'T want to have the cauldron surprise spoiled ahead of the big moment ;)).

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Without knowing, you'd have to say that chances are it will be a hidden cauldron. They have already come out and said that Scott Givens and his 5 Currents crew have included specifications of the ceremonies into the construction of the stadium - much like Sydney, they would be silly not to use this advantage to incorporate the cauldron.

Whoops, wrong thread, that was re Sochi, sorry guys.

In terms of Rio, while I don't hold much hope for Marco, Ric Birch has always come up trumps with cauldron lighting procedures. I think he has kind of lagged of late in terms of the guts of the ceremony - his idea of an Olympic ceremonies is a classic one which probably isn't the kind we have seen of late, but he is the master when it comes to cauldron lighting.

It has to be impressive.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 4 months later...

Judging by these new pictures of Maracana posted by DannyelBrazil in the "Works in Progress" thread, I now definitely see no chance for a cauldron sitting on that huge and very lightweight-looking roof. And even a cauldron tower outside the stadium wouldn't make sense because its flame could probably not be seen by all or almost all spectators in the stadium. So I'm absolutely convinced now that it will be another "internal" cauldron at the edge of the infield.

Meanwhile in Maracana...

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maracana-telao-ii-13-3-13-1.jpg

ESP286642.JPG

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Which sucks because Maracana isn't hosting the T&F. Perhaps having the cauldron burning brightly over the Football competition is exactly the point? Being almost a religion in Brazil, its not surprising that it gets the honour of hosting the Olympic flame. Interesting. As much as I'd prefer a traditional set up, I would rather that they didn't have two cauldrons. If the T&F venue has to go without a flame, then be it. Just have the one at Maracana.

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Well, in the first place Maracana will (probably - we don't know anything official yet) host the Olympic Flame not because football is a religion in Brazil, but because the opening ceremony takes place at the stadium.

I for my part do expect a second flame at the Havelange stadium. I doubt that they want to do without pictures of track and field athletes competing with the flame in sight.

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I know some people don't like it, but I think Vancouver's solution, London's cauldron compromise and Rio's two stadium solution show the IOC now sees the whole thing from a much more televisual perspective. And they're more willing to compromise.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if there is actually just one cauldron which is moved from the Maracana to either a more prominant public position or to the JHS, and then back again for the closing. Is the average TV viewer, who watched the opening ceremony in a dark theatrical Maracana really going to turn their TVs on during T&F, see the cauldron the background and worry about how it got from one to the other, or whether it even stayed alight? That's if they even notice they're looking at a different stadium!! The continuity will still be there in the minds of the viewer, the powerful narrative of the flame lighting still in their minds, even if the physical and geographical position of the flame is completely different.

Edited by RobH
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I really hate the cauldron inside the stadium. It would be even worse in Rio because almost no one will see it for the duration of the Games.

Why? There'll be several football matches in the stadium, including (probably) both finals, for the women and the men. I wouldn't call that "almost no one".

And if there's a secondary cauldron (unlike in London) at the Havelange Stadium, it won't be that bad anyway.

I could even imagine them lighting a third flame in Rio, namely on top of the Sugar Loaf or Corcovado. With such famous mountains directly in the city, it's like a silver platter for a very prominently-positioned cauldron. Montreal did that already in 1976 with its secondary (and pretty much forgotten) cauldron on top of Mont Royal. And don't forget the flame on top of Calgary Tower in 1988.

This also in reply to RobH: I think it would really be too radical to completely move the cauldron to a wholly different stadium. And I suppose it would be logistically difficult, too. It's not necessary actually: Simply build a second (maybe slightly smaller) version of the Maracana cauldron at Havelange Stadium, and that's it.

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A couple football matches? That's it? Olympic football doesn't gather the tv audiences that other international football matches do. It certainly doesn't compare to the track and field viewership. Track and field runs all day for a week straight. Football in Maracana won't. Not only will the cauldron be hidden from the public, only a very few ticket-holders for a few matches will catch a glimpse. If Rio goes with a small internal cauldron it will be the least visible cauldron in modern memory.

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Agreed. There are several options for the cauldron(s). One internal cauldron at the Maracana is not going to be one of them however. The obvious solution is to copy either Vancouver or London or replicate the PanAms. There are other more radical solutions which are possible.

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I could even imagine them lighting a third flame in Rio, namely on top of the Sugar Loaf or Corcovado. With such famous mountains directly in the city, it's like a silver platter for a very prominently-positioned cauldron. Montreal did that already in 1976 with its secondary (and pretty much forgotten) cauldron on top of Mont Royal. And don't forget the flame on top of Calgary Tower in 1988.

Interesting. I didn't knew the Canadian tradition of Multi-flamed games dated back to 1976.

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A couple football matches? That's it? Olympic football doesn't gather the tv audiences that other international football matches do. It certainly doesn't compare to the track and field viewership. Track and field runs all day for a week straight. Football in Maracana won't. Not only will the cauldron be hidden from the public, only a very few ticket-holders for a few matches will catch a glimpse. If Rio goes with a small internal cauldron it will be the least visible cauldron in modern memory.

First of all, I thought you talked about live audiences. The live audiences which would see an "indoor" Maracana cauldron wouldn't be that much smaller than the track and field audiences in London's Olympic Stadium, especially regarding the popularity also of Olympic football in Brazil.

Secondly, they'd most probably have a "cauldron cam" (as usual for all recent Olympic Games) that would make the cauldron visible for TV viewers during Olympic broadcasts. In Germany, ARD and ZDF always show the pictures of the "cauldron cam" in the background when they broadcast from their Olympic TV studio, in between live broadcasts from the Olympic venues.

And thirdly, I think anyway that that problem will be minimised by installing at least a second cauldron at the track and field venue, the Joao Havelange Stadium.

Do you have any other idea how they could solve the cauldron problem? As I said, the roof doesn't look as if it can carry a heavy cauldron - and because it is a very wide roof, it would also prevent the stadium audience from seeing a flame on top of an external cauldron tower.

Agreed. There are several options for the cauldron(s). One internal cauldron at the Maracana is not going to be one of them however. The obvious solution is to copy either Vancouver or London or replicate the PanAms. There are other more radical solutions which are possible.

??? Well, London did have only one internal cauldron at its Olympic Stadium. And at the 2007 PanAms, Rio already had only one internal cauldron at Maracana. So I suppose you actually meant that the obvious solution is to copy Vancouver - by having two cauldrons, one of those maybe more visible to the general public than the other.

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Olympian, I don't have a great solution. I disliked this part of Rio's plan (Maracana/Havelange) from the day I discovered it. I think they've created a real problem for themselves.

Even the numbers of ticket-holders for football will be far smaller than ticket holders for athletics because athletics has so many more sessions. Capacity is irrelevant. Athletics use their venues far more than football does during the Games.

I thought London's cauldron solution was truly terrible. The structure itself was an interesting design, but the lack of visibility and the intentional extinguishing of the flame make London's cauldron of the worst ones ever in my opinion. I sincerely hope Rio comes up with something better.

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