Lee Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 The UK has not done well at Eurovision in recent years because it consistently picks old fashioned dull songs. The BBC needs to get their act together or give it to another broadcaster. I don't wish to see that happen so I am hoping for a more innovative formula for 2013. Having said that, I also believe that some western European countries fair worse than they should do because of political voting. It is no coincidence that some of the fairest nations when voting are also the nations that are prone to failing to qualify. I think we need to look at political voting seriously for the continued success of the contest. However, British people need to realise that this alone will not bring Eurovision success back to the UK alone, we need a top quality song, good singer and innovative stage performance in order to do that. Eurovision voting is a complete mindfield. Most of the people complianing about the UK result only have to look at who we gave some of our highest votes to, Lithuania and Ireland - were these really the best entries? The rest of Europe is no different. In order to save Eurovision we need to do 2 things: 1, Scrutinise the national juries more carefully and have them independently picked and monitored. 2, Devise a system whereby we are allowed to vote to choose 1 or 2 blocks for each country based on bias voting from previous years. I think that would really work. Eg. Sweden barred from voting for Norway and Denmark, Greece barred from voting for Cyprus and Albania and Ukraine barred from voting for Belarus and Russia. Each year all national OGAE's would be asked to provide 2 countries to bar for each participating country. All votes are added up by the EBU and the bias becomes greatly diminished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markun Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 I don't think you could bar people from voting for certian countries because then the best song could be disadvantaged. Everyone voted for Sweden this year, why shouldn't Norway too? I don't think it's right to call the voting 'political'. That's just lazy and encourages cries of 'everyone hates us' when the UK does badly. It is often biased and is influenced strongly by cultural similarities and afinities, not to mention the voting strength of diaspora communities. But it isn't political. It's more complex than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citius Altius Fortius Posted May 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 I would love to see Kylie performing for the UK next year in Sweden! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 Markun, when you know how a country is going to vote (I.e who the 12 points will go to etc), then it dilutes the idea that this is a serious and fair contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markun Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 And I have said that several times in various discussions here. My point is that it isn't political, it's more complex than that. Nevertheless as I have also said before, it does need to be addressed if countries aren't to lose interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 Apologies, im one of those Europeans who stopped caring about this song contest many years ago, so don't really follow posts on it here in the forums. I think it should be scrapped completely, but im aware that won't happen. I also don't see it being reformed anytime soon either. The EBU, who deflected concerns about Azerbaijan by saying 'they win, they host'. Another organization in serious need of reform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markun Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 People say it should be scrapped but on balance, is the world a worse place for having Eurovision in it? I think it creates more joy than problems and it has a pretty secure future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 And I have said that several times in various discussions here. My point is that it isn't political, it's more complex than that. Nevertheless as I have also said before, it does need to be addressed if countries aren't to lose interest. So Armenia withdrew for non-politcal reasons? Come on, I can sort of see what you are saying but to call the contest non-political is completely ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 I don't think it's right to call the voting 'political'. That's just lazy and encourages cries of 'everyone hates us' when the UK does badly. It is often biased and is influenced strongly by cultural similarities and afinities, not to mention the voting strength of diaspora communities. But it isn't political. It's more complex than that. It's political aswell as having problems with diaspora voting and cultural afinities. You can't say it is not political. However much you hate the word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markun Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 I've said the voting isn't political. The contest itself is full of political elements. It isn't political for example, for Bosnians to vote for Serbia. They are simply voting for an artist they know and love singing a song they understand in a genre they are familiar with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gangwon Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 Put it in Ostersund, and make it a multi-purpose complex... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainad Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 I've said the voting isn't political. The contest itself is full of political elements. It isn't political for example, for Bosnians to vote for Serbia. They are simply voting for an artist they know and love singing a song they understand in a genre they are familiar with. I'm afraid I disagree. I'm of the firm opinion that if the Serbian singer just stood on one leg and yodelled non-stop for 15 minutes he/she would still get 12 points from the Bosnians and vice versa! Ditto Greece and Cyprus, Romania and Moldova, Turkey and Azerbaijan, Sweden and Denmark, Latvia and Lithuania, Finland and Estonia, Spain and Portugal etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam! I'm of the firm opinion that no-one should know which song is from which country when voting for it (apart from their own of course, which they can't vote for). It would be difficult to implement but would be an interesting way of deciding just how much a country genuinely likes a song as opposed to how much it likes where it comes from! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munichfan Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 I'm afraid I disagree. I'm of the firm opinion that if the Serbian singer just stood on one leg and yodelled non-stop for 15 minutes he/she would still get 12 points from the Bosnians and vice versa! Ditto Greece and Cyprus, Romania and Moldova, Turkey and Azerbaijan, Sweden and Denmark, Latvia and Lithuania, Finland and Estonia, Spain and Portugal etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam! I'm of the firm opinion that no-one should know which song is from which country when voting for it (apart from their own of course, which they can't vote for). It would be difficult to implement but would be an interesting way of deciding just how much a country genuinely likes a song as opposed to how much it likes where it comes from! Surprisingly only the British think that voting is that political and that it's totally impossible to win for a non-scandinavian or non-balkan country. That system really can't work. First, everyone has to have a national preselection from now on. Second, if everyone knows the entry of his/her country, I'm sure when the voting starts all the information of who represents which country will have lacked. Third, there couldn't be any money be earned before the final as it would clearly show where the participants come from. Fourth, there couldn't be semi-finals, so the maximum number of entries would be some 25 or so which would make the EBU a lot less money. Fifth, those crappy British entries wouldn't get any points, anyway. Sixth, you would be extremely depressed as the Balkan countries would still give their points to Serbia just because they like the same style of music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 You are totally missing the point, munichfan. I don't believe it is impossible for the UK or say France to win if the song is good enough. I also fully accept that our selection is to blame and we have sent some really awful songs. However, the point remains that there are a large group of countries that qualify each year with vastly inferior songs simply because they rely on neighbourly or diaspora voting blocks. I have always said that the ESC will only progress if there is fairness in the voting. People will switch off if they believe it is impossible for their country to win. It doesn't matter whether this is actually true or not, the perseption is what the EBU needs to be worried about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord David Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 Put it in Ostersund, and make it a multi-purpose complex... Trying to outdo Baku AND have a core venue for a future Olympics bid? Can a 25,000 seater arena be built within 11 months (or less)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olympian2004 Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 You are totally missing the point, munichfan. I don't believe it is impossible for the UK or say France to win if the song is good enough. I also fully accept that our selection is to blame and we have sent some really awful songs. However, the point remains that there are a large group of countries that qualify each year with vastly inferior songs simply because they rely on neighbourly or diaspora voting blocks. I have always said that the ESC will only progress if there is fairness in the voting. People will switch off if they believe it is impossible for their country to win. It doesn't matter whether this is actually true or not, the perseption is what the EBU needs to be worried about. But Lee, in the end you actually say nevertheless that it's impossible for some countries to win. And this is not true. Until now, we've rarely had weak songs winning the ESC just based on bloc voting. In fact, the winning song in most cases was also the best or among the best of all entries. Serbia's victory in 2007, for example, surely was fuelled by bloc votes, but it also gained 12 points from Western European countries and simply was a great song. Now with the re-introduction of the juries the system has actually become much fairer. I actually don't see how one could create an even fairer system without starting to get unfair (like that proposal above with the anti-bias voting ban). Spain proved this year how one can drastically improve its performance at the ESC by choosing a much more decent song which is more in line with Pan-European taste. Another good recipe is choosing very modern and fresh songs, just like Germany did for the last three editions. I tell you: The key to winning is not complaining about the voting system but simply and only choosing a catchy and modern song with a good performer. The UK only had the latter this year. Denmark actually had both, but maybe the listeners heard too much Alanis Morisette and Dixie Chicks in that song and therefore didn't care about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainad Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 Surprisingly only the British think that voting is that political and that it's totally impossible to win for a non-scandinavian or non-balkan country. I see you haven't been on here long enough to follow the long, annual debates we've always had about the fairness of the ESC voting system. A year or two ago, it was the Germans as much as anybody who were leading the way in calling for a boycott of the ESC because of the blatant bias in its voting patterns, as CAF and others will confirm! That system really can't work. First, everyone has to have a national preselection from now on. Second, if everyone knows the entry of his/her country, I'm sure when the voting starts all the information of who represents which country will have lacked. Third, there couldn't be any money be earned before the final as it would clearly show where the participants come from. Fourth, there couldn't be semi-finals, so the maximum number of entries would be some 25 or so which would make the EBU a lot less money. Fifth, those crappy British entries wouldn't get any points, anyway. Sixth, you would be extremely depressed as the Balkan countries would still give their points to Serbia just because they like the same style of music. You misunderstand me. I couldn't really care less about 'crappy British' entries. I have no problem at all with a song standing or falling on its merits. That's as it should be. But I (and many others) do get fed up with seeing songs that are often much worse constantly raking in points from their next-door neighbours just because they happen to be the next-door neighbour. I doubt it has got much to do with musical styles either. Tell me when you can find the last example when the Scandinavian countries or the Baltic countries didn't all give each other top marks and don't even get me started on the Balkan countries most of whom were busy killing each other not so long ago! I agree that it would be extremely hard to devise a scheme whereby the songs are judged purely for their musical quality and not because of where they originate from. Anonymity of some kind would be the only true test. It would really be interesting to see how the voting patterns stand up if no-body knew for sure who was singing what or which countries they represented. Only the sound of the song and the singer...nothing else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westfale Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 I see you haven't been on here long enough to follow the long, annual debates we've always had about the fairness of the ESC voting system. A year or two ago, it was the Germans as much as anybody who were leading the way in calling for a boycott of the ESC because of the blatant bias in its voting patterns, as CAF and others will confirm! That was me! Or maybe they could let Germany stage it, since they are weirdly obsessed with this competiton - much more than other countries in Europe. It's just a thought! If there is one nation obsessed with the ESC, it is Sweden. In this years competition have been 16 (!) songs from Swedish composers. Azerbaijan is represented by a Swedish song every year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord David Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 I still think there should be say 10 judges on site, who are not citizens of any EBU nation so as to be non biased. They will each grant points like nations' juries and people votes would. A maximum of 120 points could be given to any nation. This will truly show which finalist entries are worthy. Perhaps we could have an in-joke for the next Eurovision? the entries which didn't make the final compete with each other to see who has the WORST song of that year's Eurovision song contest. Online anonymous voting could be used and the "winner" will be named on the grand final and receive the wooden spoon or equivalent "prize". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munichfan Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 They are also biased when they are not from EBU countries as they also have their style of music they like and they were grown up with. Well, I have a feeling that this really could get extremely political. I tell you, that "prize" would always go to either Armenia or Greece as they are, at least in some countries, extremely unpopular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markun Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 We might see fewer participants next year. According to reports, the EBU might be changing their rules so that “dictatorships” will be excluded from Eurovision if they don’t respect basic, democratic human rights including freedom of speech and assembly. Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia have been mentioned. The formal decision will be taken at a EBU conference in Strasbourg in June. Public broadcasters from the Nordic countries and the UK are pushing for this change. http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/musik/diktaturerna-ska-ut-ur-schlager-em I hope it will also apply to places like Belarus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citius Altius Fortius Posted May 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 just booked my hotel in Stockholm for next years ESC (I can cancel it without costs, when Göteborg or Malmö host - but I doubt that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord David Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 We might see fewer participants next year. According to reports, the EBU might be changing their rules so that “dictatorships” will be excluded from Eurovision if they don’t respect basic, democratic human rights including freedom of speech and assembly. Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia have been mentioned. The formal decision will be taken at a EBU conference in Strasbourg in June. Public broadcasters from the Nordic countries and the UK are pushing for this change. http://www.dn.se/kul...-ur-schlager-em I hope it will also apply to places like Belarus. Well that would just emphasize the "political" nature of the ESC. Also, it would basically be saying to the likes of Azerbaijan that the EBU practically hated this year's edition, even though it was successful, simply based on supposed human rights issues in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotguy Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Loreen and Euphoria has reached number 3 on the UK Singles chart - can't remember the last time a Eurovision winner was so successful on the UK Top 40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citius Altius Fortius Posted June 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Sweden is celebrating its national holiday today! Grattis till Sverige! Lycka till och jag hoppas att du bestämmer dig till Stockholm för nästa år! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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