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What rights do you have to claim such thing??? There was no such thing as "genocide of armenians". Armenians themselves were involved in massacre of Azeri population in Khojaly. Its just disgusting how armenian propaganda can influence on people.

...so those 1.5 million people just fell down dead without any reason? Almost all peoples made huge faults in their history, but denying them makes it even worse.

You should really think about where the propaganda comes from (just to mention e.g. Turkish school books telling that the first humans lived in Turkey or Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code).

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...so those 1.5 million people just fell down dead without any reason? Almost all peoples made huge faults in their history, but denying them makes it even worse.

You should really think about where the propaganda comes from (just to mention e.g. Turkish school books telling that the first humans lived in Turkey or Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code).

lol i never learned such thing in my elemantry school. but the first human beings were in arfica and neandarnthel . lol its funny to hear such urban legends from outside:)

and about that armenian thing. ever went to an archieve and searc for it? if not so please dont say anything about it wit what u had heard. wat is trurth is its in 1915 and ww1 and for 600 years where all nations living in peace in anatolia suddenly (?) takes side with russia and unite an armenian force allied with the empire and bgean to kll turks and other people in the region. thats why for the safet of the empire the armenians force to move other and inner parts of anatolia.

there were not such 1.5 million armenians in that time the whole empires population was 14 million ( which is nows turkey syria ıraq and arabia and levant).

600 000 armenians change their locations and mostly died cause of the winter and the conditions + 250000 turks killed by them in east anatolia. ( written in whole archieves ) . and dont say me why ? even in your body when u get sick or harm your nerves and immunity system programmed as to save u. never criticise uuu what will i do they gonna punish me to save myself.

itis sooo unlogical for people to criticsie this issue wit just the rumuors they heard about and get info from the media. ever saw a german imperial paper about it or an ottoman or a british?

if u want to make all the games clean, start from the spanish killed millions and demolis civilziatons in america or a better fresh one china or Usa.

so its not an issue for IOC it seems which not certain and clear.

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Been doing my usual ploughing through the Application file and there is part of me that is disappointed.

I am often caught between whether Istanbul is bidding to improve on previous attempts or just bidding again hoping to win.

I am going to assume that is an error i.e. the Bosphorous Stadium, and that by "ceremonies" they mean Medal Ceremonies or Celebrations.

Moving athletes and media from adjacent a giant stadium, 40 minutes across town to another stadium just won't sit well.

This will be highlighted in the Working Group report.

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another thing i want to ask u guys.

if your city want to host an org. like this whic u prefer. in a certain place where all facilities located or diverse in whole city and accesable for the citizens after that much more.

and think about it like a huge city not a one with 3 4 million population but over 10?

im happy to see that much area and new venues will planned in different areas of the city cause it gives cance to used by citizens after that. if it was all in ataturk olympic stadium area it will be impossible for me to go and do sports after my work or weekends. but with this i can use at least 4 or 5 venues which is a BİG benefit for the people in asian side ( means 6 millions people at least).

are the cities planned for the games or the sports is for the citizens and their benefits aftr the games and the games must involve through the city like veins.? hich is important for u?

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Been doing my usual ploughing through the Application file and there is part of me that is disappointed.

I am often caught between whether Istanbul is bidding to improve on previous attempts or just bidding again hoping to win.

I am going to assume that is an error i.e. the Bosphorous Stadium, and that by "ceremonies" they mean Medal Ceremonies or Celebrations.

Moving athletes and media from adjacent a giant stadium, 40 minutes across town to another stadium just won't sit well.

This will be highlighted in the Working Group report.

I just spent a couple of lengthy posts on that earlier in this thread, Raf. But Medal Ceremonies at the Bosphorus site would make more sense. They can always just project the more photogenic parts of the city at Ataturk if that's what they wanted to highlight.

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I just hope that sensible and cooler heads in the bid committee will prevail. Knee-jerk statements of any kind tend to go badly for which bid committee initially starts that conversation.

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I don't really understand how the Bosphorus Stadium will make ceremonies more appealing for TV audiences. During the ceremonies, TV focuses on what happens inside the stadium, so it doesn't matter where the stadium is. They can still get some nice aerial shots of the Bosphorus even if the ceremonies are being held 40 minutes away.

Medal awarding ceremonies, as baron says, would be different. However, aren't all summer medals but one (marathon) awarded at the competition sites?

another thing i want to ask u guys.

if your city want to host an org. like this whic u prefer. in a certain place where all facilities located or diverse in whole city and accesable for the citizens after that much more.

I think it depends on how you see it. It's true that if the venues are spread, more parts of the city will benefit from the Games legacy, but on the other hand, the more distant they are from each other, the more uncomfortable for athletes and spectators during Games' time (and traffic can also be quite chaotic).

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Medal awarding ceremonies, as baron says, would be different. However, aren't all summer medals but one (marathon) awarded at the competition sites?

Maybe they are thinking they can do an innovation for the SOG, and do it a la WOG. Maybe if they can convince the various federations to go along.

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if u want to make all the games clean, start from the spanish killed millions and demolis civilziatons in america or a better fresh one china or Usa.

The difference is that e.g. the Spanish don't say "oh, this latin american propaganda! we didn't kill them, it was their fault!", but they recognize that there were also bad days. Ans I don't want to make "all the games clean". To say that this is a point why they shouldn't be awarded the games was not what I said. I just thought that Ararat shouldn't be included in a possible OC. And after looking into the bid book again, I think that all those sea fights etc. can't be done 'cause this stadium seems to get a wrap and roof all over that venue (except the pitch, of course).

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I don't get the idea, what is the reason to bring the 1915 moment to 2020 bids ? all the massacre are terrible, but that's happen in the past, it's true that we better not to forget the history, but this thing doesn't have any correlation with 2020 bids, if we try to bring the past then try to connect them, then German won't have any chance to have the games.... :) they are the one that initiate WW II :), so IMHO, I don't see any connection between the armenian genocide that happen in 1915 with 2020 bid race :)

PS : I'm not the supporter of Istanbul, I'm the supporter of Madrid :)

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As you may have read, I was referring to the OC and not to the bids. And I really don't know why there is so much protest. Just as Germany shouldn't bring too much of 1936 in the ceremonies, it would be a fault to include the ark, and with it Ararat, for Turkey.

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muninchan; Why dont you talk about Armeniran occupation of Azerbaijani lands? 20% of Azerbaijani lands are occupied and UN made 4 resolutions that Armenia must withdraw the arm forces from Azerbaijani land. Why dont you talk how armenians killed so many civilians during the war in 1991, which led to Khojaly massacre, 800 civilians, most of them woman, kids and old people. So called "armenian genocide" never been regognized by international historians, because it a myth. Only countries with armenian lobby US, France, Russia, recognised it. MOst of the time is just to manipulate Turkey. The number 1.5 mln is just joke.

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In the world there are only two countries, Turkey and Azerbaijan, still claiming that it wasn't a genocide and those 1.5 million are a worldwide recognized number among most historians, of course not those of Azerbaijan and Turkey. And I never said Armenia is a innocent child, but Yerevan doesn't bid and there was not the proposal of including a national Azerbaijani symbol into an OC. I really can't understand you why you're still picking on this. I don't think it may help Istanbul's bid at all.

And now I would be very pleased to come back to the real theme which is "Istanbul 2020 Bid Book" and not "Was there an Armenian genocide or not?".

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Building another stadium by Bosphorus only to hold ceremonies and show off cauldron to everyone in the city is just a WOW factor and a total waste of money.

Could argue it's a giant flaming middle finger to the Greeks looking across the Bosphorus to see the cauldron burning in Istanbul.

I'm only kidding a bit, no harm. Guess it's about time for me to hit the PDFs and start doing some noodling.

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In the world there are only two countries, Turkey and Azerbaijan, still claiming that it wasn't a genocide and those 1.5 million are a worldwide recognized number among most historians

Pure lie. Around 20 countries in the world recognize so called "armenian genocide". Israel refuses even to talk about it in the parliament. Because they know whats up.

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OK on the BID BOOK:

I think Istanbul is playing it smart: this is a big improvement on previous bids, and will certainly get them to the short list. The stadium issue is significant; I don't think the single Village is--in fact, I think a lot of athletes prefer one village if it's run well and within a reasonable distance of competition venues. 35 minutes to the farthest one is reasonable.

I think their strategy is to use the site visit to see what parts of their bid need to be tweaked--and then tweak it for the final presentations. It's between Tokyo and Istanbul at this point: I think it's irresponsible for the Japanese government to consider spending billlions on an OG when there's massive infrastructure projects after the Tohoku earthquake/tsunami/nuclear disaster. I suspect enough IOC members will feel similarly--Turkey's economic strength and incremental alignment with EU policies and law will help. A lot.

Armenia

What happened was criminal--horrible, inexcusable--but it doesn't meet the legal standard for genocide if what happened in Bosnia in the 1990s doesn't. At the beginning of the 20th century this part of Europe was a nasty place: ethnic cleansing happened during or after many conflicts (in what is now Bulgaria, Macedonia, Greece, Serbia, Romania, Poland, Ukraine, Moldova, and Turkey). Even the numbers for the Armenians aren't unique. I also think it's unfair to saddle the democratic secular state of Turkey with the crimes of the autocratic dictatorship of the Ottomans.

This happened 3-4 generations ago. While I support efforts to surface what actually happened and the change of Turkish law to allow this within Turkey, the current population of Turkey can't be blamed. And if you think that law is unique, check out all the "Holocaust denial" laws across Europe. If Russia's human rights record next door to Sochi in the Caucus republics didn't prevent those Games, how could anyone argue against an Istanbul games 9 decades after the crimes in question?

Let's judge this bid on its merits.

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Mystery of Bosphorus Stadium was solved! Minister of Sports and Youth declared that Bosphorus Stadium will have the capacity of 100 000 seats and everyone will be able to see the European side while they are watching the opening ceremony. He also said the stadium will be temporary and the seats will be able to be removed and carried to different cities for different sports activities. So in this case we can understand that if Istanbul wins there will be an opening ceremony by the sea which will face with the historical peninsula, it will not be a standar circular stadium but half of it will be facing to Bosphorus. I think it might be really epic and this temporary stadium thing now makes sense. It will be like Singapoure and Guangzhou but will be huger. Now I call this a real WOW factor :D

source, but it's in Turkish

http://spor.milliyet.com.tr/haydarpasa-ya-100-bin-kisilik-stad/spor/spordetay/02.03.2012/1510225/default.htm

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Mystery of Bosphorus Stadium was solved! Minister of Sports and Youth declared that Bosphorus Stadium will have the capacity of 100 000 seats and everyone will be able to see the European side while they are watching the opening ceremony. He also said the stadium will be temporary and the seats will be able to be removed and carried to different cities for different sports activities. So in this case we can understand that if Istanbul wins there will be an opening ceremony by the sea which will face with the historical peninsula, it will not be a standar circular stadium but half of it will be facing to Bosphorus. I think it might be really epic and this temporary stadium thing now makes sense. It will be like Singapoure and Guangzhou but will be huger. Now I call this a real WOW factor :D

Only the Olympic Opening? I mean the Closing might be an obvious letdown because they would've pulled out all the stops for the Opening--not unless they have something as spectacular planned for the Closing. And what about the Paralympics? So the setting's magic would've worn off by then... At 100,000 capacity it would solve having to seat the athletes but it still wouldn't solve the problem of transporting some 11,000 bodies from the Villages and back. Sure, they could end earlier, like 10:00pm which means they would really have to start like 5:30 or 6:00pm.

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The Bosphorous Stadium will seat 100,000 so there was a mistake in the bid book!! X_x hahaha!! And only will host Opening Cemerony? Closing at Atatürk?? :S

Those bid book are NOT final by any means. But it also did say that the Marathons would each end at the Bosphorus stadium. I would take that to mean that Closing is also scheduled there. I don't think they would assemble seats/bleachers for 100,000 for just one use. Maybe an even scaled down portion of the same stadium might be used for the Paralympics as well. THis may all change too.

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