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That's ridiculous. In the field, they are 11 vs. 11.

Based on that, China and India would be the superpowers on any sport and how to explain tiny Uruguay with 3 million people have as many titles as Argentina?

Come on, that's just silly. Population isn't everything if things are done wrongly. China and India aren't football nations and small countries like Portugal and Croatia can be successful but a bigger country will beat a smaller one if their level of traditions and training are equal. In Brazil those 11 players will in the long run and on average be better than in Uruguay, although in an individual match or tournament the result can be different. That's why big nations usually win the titles.

With all due respect, Uruguay won their titles in an era where the competition was far different from what it is today.

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1) Sorry but I disagree. Of course collective achievements are important, but they're not everything. Wouldn't Cruyff and Di Stefano make your list? they didn't won the world cup, but they won absolutely everything with their clubs. At the end, saying who is "the best of all times" is something absolutely subjective, but Messi is above everything I have seen in my life, even above some of the world cup winners you listed there.

2) Their record is dreadful, for the reasons I already mentioned (lack of infrastructure, extreme poverty, corruption). BUT, they are really getting their **** together in sport, they won 6 medals at London and I bet everything on that tally increasing at Rio. They're on the way to the top.

3) I know that (though we deserved to pass them in 2006). It's just that these two users brought up Argentina's title-drought as some kind of argument to prove... something which isn't clear to me. I don't know what they're trying to prove with that since I never said Argentina was better than Brazil at football to begin with. I said that we managed to beat them a lot of times, more than any other team, despite being generally inferior througout history.

4) Again, have you seen any match of Argentina in the last two years? It's clearly not the same team as back in 2010/2011. I know very well the german/spanish potential, but I think that given a match between both teams, in the southamerican heat, with probably +20.000 argentinians in the stadium, I would pick us to win, because we have the weapons to do so.

1) You gave me the point with those examples. Yes, Cruyff and Di Stefano are excellent players from their own, but just ask for many people the relevance. Yes, they have presence but are mostly by the collective mind as First tier list of contenders. If you disagree with me fine, but at least it will keep relevance on popular mind when they're winning a World Cup because it's a universal event related with history. It's like the records of the Olympics -Something unique.

2) Oh please, six ridiculous medals without gold is a great advantage? It's just both parts of indifference and dreadful projects. For me, it's mostly mediocre effort with not serious improvement, especially with the "potential". So no, India doesn't make a great job, especially with your last post of big countries. And now Where's Indonesia? Egypt? This is a flawed argument not relatable with the real life.

4) Yes, I saw them all the circuit and yes I know they're capable. But STILL affords that weaknesses. And even with the "South American" heat, Germany is excellent defying all the odds in enemy territory.

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4) Yes, I saw them all the circuit and yes I know they're capable. But STILL affords that weaknesses. And even with the "South American" heat, Germany is excellent defying all the odds in enemy territory.

Let me add this:

In aspects of the point 4) I made the point for the Matchday 13 and 14 as part of these doubts. The Argentine team has a great weapon for attack, but this Achilles heel is still among them.

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1) You gave me the point with those examples. Yes, Cruyff and Di Stefano are excellent players from their own, but just ask for many people the relevance. Yes, they have presence but are mostly by the collective mind as First tier list of contenders. If you disagree with me fine, but at least it will keep relevance on popular mind when they're winning a World Cup because it's a universal event related with history. It's like the records of the Olympics -Something unique.

2) Oh please, six ridiculous medals without gold is a great advantage? It's just both parts of indifference and dreadful projects. For me, it's mostly mediocre effort with not serious improvement, especially with the "potential". So no, India doesn't make a great job, especially with your last post of big countries. And now Where's Indonesia? Egypt? This is a flawed argument not relatable with the real life.

4) Yes, I saw them all the circuit and yes I know they're capable. But STILL affords that weaknesses. And even with the "South American" heat, Germany is excellent defying all the odds in enemy territory.

1) hmm I don't get how I gave you the point there, but anyway, I still disagree with the relevance you give to winning a world cup. For me Cruyff, Di Stefano and Messi -whatever happens to him- are at the same level of stardom as the others you mention. The olympic records are individual stuff, this is a team sport and so the best players don't always get to win the trophies.

2) yes, it's a great improvement (and I could even say they underperformed at London). Wait and you'll see in the future. About Indonesia and Egypt... I said it before, big population is a great advantage, but you got to lay the proper conditions first to earn the profit from it (infrastructure, poverty, corruption, etc).

4) Ok, you have your opinion, I have mine, and it's ok :)

Let me add this:

In aspects of the point 4) I made the point for the Matchday 13 and 14 as part of these doubts. The Argentine team has a great weapon for attack, but this Achilles heel is still among them.

Matchday 13 and 14? You mean Colombia and Ecuador matches? Well, Ecuador match has simple explanation: altitude, you can go all out in attack there because if you do, you end losing by 4. Ecuador won all games at home except that one.

About Colombia: Messi played 20 min. (and injured), plus we missed a big amount of very clear chances before Higuain being sent off in 1st half. Colombians had their clear chances too (though less), but if someone was closer to win it was Argentina.

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Yeah, that aggressive language was really uncalled for, I'm giving my opinions in the most respectful way. I really wonder why people are so aggressive while debating on this forum, in all threads it seems to be the same.

As I said several times, I agree with most of the "content" of the Catra's posts, not with his style... Still, this forums are ruled by extreme freedom of speech rules (for the good and for the evil), so he can be this way...

And despite the words, Catra is totally right... They lost 3 finals (2 Copa Americas and a Confederations Cup) lately if we not count the last 2 years annual "Super Classic of Americas" tournament...

Already 5 finals lost to Brazil in the last 10 years...

Then, we play a friendly and Argentina wins... In friendly matches, they are great.

Edited by DannyelBrazil
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The list of world best players ever from the Argentine perspective:
1st: Messi, 2nd: Maradona, 3rd: Di Stéfano and the list goes with Canniggia, Batistuta, Riquelme, Fernandez, Hernandez, Benitez, Gonzalez, Chiquititez, Panchitez, .... All will be Argentines...

Their arrogance can't let them differ a great Argentine athlete from a world recognized greatest ever athlete.

Maradona was never considered the best player ever for most of the world and Messi is not too...
As I said: Messi still needs to score 1,300 goals, win 3 World Cups, beat the best Europeans teams inside Europe with their South American club, stop a war, be considered the "athlete of the century" by IOC and most of European and American (!!!) sports magazines..., then he will be the best ever. Messi is not even near...

He is a great player, the best of our times, maybe one of the top-10 or 5 ever. The best ever is only one: the king is black, Brazilian and it's called Pelé and is recognized by the entire world except Argentina (and last time I checked, Argentina have been not too relevant to the world).

About statistics. I say again: I don't change any friendly or "less-relevant" Argentina victory for our 5 World Cup titles...
You celebrate few matches victories, we celebrate lot of titles.

Again: go discuss polo or field hockey...
Nobody in Brazil argues against sports you are great, and maybe, the world cares not much...

Edited by DannyelBrazil
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2) Well... China is kinda a superpower in every sport, aren't they? India is on the road, but they have to overcome a lot of corruption and infrastructural problems.

India is not on the road. Argentina made it better than India in the Olympics... (If I was an Indian, I would be very ashamed)

Why India sucks in sports? How about Indonesia? Nigeria??? All of them have huge populations and sucks in sports...

In the field, there will be always equal number of players in each side no matter how big are the populations.

Based on your argument, LDOG, we should cancel the Olympic Games, the national teams competitions and just give the trophies to countries where people have more children...

That's stupid.

Edited by DannyelBrazil
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1) hmm I don't get how I gave you the point there, but anyway, I still disagree with the relevance you give to winning a world cup. For me Cruyff, Di Stefano and Messi -whatever happens to him- are at the same level of stardom as the others you mention. The olympic records are individual stuff, this is a team sport and so the best players don't always get to win the trophies.

2) yes, it's a great improvement (and I could even say they underperformed at London). Wait and you'll see in the future. About Indonesia and Egypt... I said it before, big population is a great advantage, but you got to lay the proper conditions first to earn the profit from it (infrastructure, poverty, corruption, etc).

4) Ok, you have your opinion, I have mine, and it's ok :)

Matchday 13 and 14? You mean Colombia and Ecuador matches? Well, Ecuador match has simple explanation: altitude, you can go all out in attack there because if you do, you end losing by 4. Ecuador won all games at home except that one.

About Colombia: Messi played 20 min. (and injured), plus we missed a big amount of very clear chances before Higuain being sent off in 1st half. Colombians had their clear chances too (though less), but if someone was closer to win it was Argentina.

1) Again this is YOUR opinion, not the perspective of an average joe. An average joe knows these legends mostly for that. In many records and interviews put that in context. An average joe -Even people who doesn't like soccer- know these legends thanks for that. Like Danny said before.

2) You sound like Dustin Hoffman in "Meet the Fockers". This is NOT an improvement, it's a mediocre effort especially considerating that lost many other opportunities in key sports. This improvement sounds mostly like one shot at the time and next in Rio will lose this effort.

About the matches, excuses and looking inside the belly.

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Roger is not talking about "great players", which Messi undoubtelly is, indeed, IMO, better than Cruyff or Zidane...
We are talking about a "possibility" of being the best ever. The BEST EVER MUST win the BIGGEST soccer tournament, and IMO, at least the same amount of the previous "best ever" with better performances.
Champions League is cool, nice and everything, but to win a World Cup is the dream of any soccer player. To win 3 World Cups, not even the entire nation of Argentina ever did...

Some say the best national team ever was Brazil 1982. I say: it's not.
If they were "THE BEST EVER" they would have won the World Cup. They didn't. So, the Brazil 1970 is the best team ever.
BTW, no "Argentina" in the previous comment.


CAN WE BRING THIS DISCUSSION TO WORLD CUP THREADS???


Here is the place to discuss the Youth Games in Argentina.

Edited by DannyelBrazil
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Belgium are also dark horses. I don't think they'll win but a good draw could take them to the semis.

If Belgium is a dark-horse its jockey is 7ft tall and wearing fluorescent green and pink apparel. It's been obvious for a while Belgium could pose a real threat, their team is full of top quality Premier League players. I don't think you can call this team a dark-horse anymore as most people who follow football have known for a while how much quality they have.

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Well yeah, I don't suppose you can avoid them, especially here in England. I think they'll get to the last 8 at least, if they have a bit of luck with the draw & other results, say if Germany & Brazil get shocked, & they land up playing say Italy in the semi & Spain in the final, there's no reason why Belgium can't win both of those games. If we're going to have a new name on the World Cup, Belgium are most likely

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"yeah, I know they're friendlies."

LOL, if you this why mention? Usually friendlies mean absolutely nothing. Unless is a prep game before a big competition.

And messi is already the best ever? lol. He isn't better than Di Stefano, haha. Let alone Pelé.

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"I know that (though we deserved to pass them in 2006). It's just that these two users brought up Argentina's title-drought as some kind of argument to prove... something which isn't clear to me."

The point is that Argentina's football went downhill after Maradona. Your NT sucks and having been sucking for a long long time.

To olympicsfan97, thx. :)

You wanted to debate football, here I'm. :D It is bloody football, mate. Not chess, simply Football.

Now I really doubt you're Argentine since you're crying because of that.


ps: Argentina wont get past the Quarter Finals. I'd bet you on that.

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In the field, there will be always equal number of players in each side no matter how big are the populations.

Based on your argument, LDOG, we should cancel the Olympic Games, the national teams competitions and just give the trophies to countries where people have more children...

That's stupid.

Following that logic San Marino should be able to beat Italy, after all it's only 11 vs. 11. You must not be that silly.

A big population is an advantage in sports BUT it doesn't guarantee anything.

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To olympicsfan97, thx. :)

You wanted to debate football, here I'm. :D It is bloody football, mate. Not chess, simply Football.

Now I really doubt you're Argentine since you're crying because of that.

ps: Argentina wont get past the Quarter Finals. I'd bet you on that.

Could not care less how far Argentina or Brazil go. I was just commenting on how insanely offensive and aggressive your style is on this site.

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The list of world best players ever from the Argentine perspective:

1st: Messi, 2nd: Maradona, 3rd: Di Stéfano and the list goes with Canniggia, Batistuta, Riquelme, Fernandez, Hernandez, Benitez, Gonzalez, Chiquititez, Panchitez, .... All will be Argentines...

Their arrogance can't let them differ a great Argentine athlete from a world recognized greatest ever athlete.

Maradona was never considered the best player ever for most of the world and Messi is not too...

As I said: Messi still needs to score 1,300 goals, win 3 World Cups, beat the best Europeans teams inside Europe with their South American club, stop a war, be considered the "athlete of the century" by IOC and most of European and American (!!!) sports magazines..., then he will be the best ever. Messi is not even near...

He is a great player, the best of our times, maybe one of the top-10 or 5 ever. The best ever is only one: the king is black, Brazilian and it's called Pelé and is recognized by the entire world except Argentina (and last time I checked, Argentina have been not too relevant to the world).

About statistics. I say again: I don't change any friendly or "less-relevant" Argentina victory for our 5 World Cup titles...

You celebrate few matches victories, we celebrate lot of titles.

Again: go discuss polo or field hockey...

Nobody in Brazil argues against sports you are great, and maybe, the world cares not much...

Last time I checked FIFA gave the player of the century award to both Pelé and Maradona, so I think "the world" is not recognizing Pelé as the one and only...

But it's ok, you have your opinion, I have mine. i'll not reply further to not destroy this thread even more.

"I know that (though we deserved to pass them in 2006). It's just that these two users brought up Argentina's title-drought as some kind of argument to prove... something which isn't clear to me."

The point is that Argentina's football went downhill after Maradona. Your NT sucks and having been sucking for a long long time.

To olympicsfan97, thx. :)

You wanted to debate football, here I'm. :D It is bloody football, mate. Not chess, simply Football.

Now I really doubt you're Argentine since you're crying because of that.

ps: Argentina wont get past the Quarter Finals. I'd bet you on that.

Yeah, we suck, whatever :rolleyes: Ok, we can bet if you want after the draw is out.

Again with the generalizations about nationality... I'm argentine and -most of the time- a respectful person, is that really a rare trait?

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Yeah, we suck, whatever :rolleyes: Ok, we can bet if you want after the draw is out.

Again with the generalizations about nationality... I'm argentine and -most of the time- a respectful person, is that really a rare trait?

your NT sucks, that's a fact. 22 years without winning **** = sucking.

lol Now I'm sure you're from somewhere else that registered here just to debate with Danny. Yeh dude, I surely meant being disrespectful was an argentinian common trait. I wasn't even defended you argies few posts back. Sure. I didn't meant we were talking about football. An argentinian would know how to properly discuss football without crying. You're an Euro/Yankee that know Messi and that's all. Saying Messi is the best ever already threw me off. Coming from an Argentinian that was really strange since Messi until a couple of years ago was criticized a lot by Argentinians and every argentinian I know don't put Messi ahead of Maradona. The older ones don't even put him over guys like Di Stéfano.

So yeh, now that I know you're not Argentinian: bye bye. I wont reply to ya no more.

Olympicsfan, my post was to lcog. I even liked your post. That's how we debate football here in the 3rd world.

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your NT sucks, that's a fact. 22 years without winning **** = sucking.

lol Now I'm sure you're from somewhere else that registered here just to debate with Danny. Yeh dude, I surely meant being disrespectful was an argentinian common trait. I wasn't even defended you argies few posts back. Sure. I didn't meant we were talking about football. An argentinian would know how to properly discuss football without crying. You're an Euro/Yankee that know Messi and that's all. Saying Messi is the best ever already threw me off. Coming from an Argentinian that was really strange since Messi until a couple of years ago was criticized a lot by Argentinians and every argentinian I know don't put Messi ahead of Maradona. The older ones don't even put him over guys like Di Stéfano.

So yeh, now that I know you're not Argentinian: bye bye. I wont reply to ya no more.

Olympicsfan, my post was to lcog. I even liked your post. That's how we debate football here in the 3rd world.

jaja mirá hermano, soy más argentino que el mate, el dulce de leche y Gardel. Messi es el más grande porque es una bestia, un jugador como nunca vi otro en mi puta vida (tengo 25 años). Ya te dije que es completamente subjetivo elegir quién es "el mejor" y yo obviamente no vi a todos los que se mencionaron en el thread. Al Diego lo ví sólo cuando yo era chico y ya estaba gordo y acabado (si bien veo todos los partidos del mundial 86'/90' o los del Napoli siempre que los repiten por tv), fue un fenómeno, no lo niego, pero como yo, varios argentinos no lo tienen de ídolo por su personalidad y su identificación con Boca. Pero como Messi no hay igual, ni Ronaldo, ni Zidane se le pueden comparar, tiene una consistencia total, hasta cuando juega mal juega bien y hace 7 años que juega igual sin bajar el nivel. Los que lo criticaban hace unos años son PELOTUDOS que no saben una mierda de futbol. El equipo de Basile y de Maradona eran mierda, por eso jugaba "mal" (y así y todo jugó bárbaro en la copa america 07 y el mundial 2010).

Y dale, seguí boqueándola, seguí diciendo "lol u suck" todo lo que quieras, no vaya a ser que el año que viene te comas la cogida de tu vida... ;)

brasilero, brasilerooooo que amargado se te veeeee... ♫

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Olympicsfan, my post was to lcog. I even liked your post. That's how we debate football here in the 3rd world.

Fair enough. As a Canadian I don't quite understand or experience the passion that you guys have for the sport in South America and other parts of the world.

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your NT sucks, that's a fact. 22 years without winning **** = sucking.

That's great logic there, your concept of "fact" and "sucking" are also interesting So then Uruguay is better than both Argentina and Germany at football, because they won something while the other two are in a title drought of 20 and 17 years.

In truth, this thing about measuring the level of national teams according to titles is flawed. A NT is not a club that can win up to 4 titles every season, they can only win up to three each 4 year cicle, and they have to win the continental in order to participate in the Confed cup.

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