LDOG Posted October 7, 2013 Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 Ok, I get your point of view. Of course, I know BA is in much worse conditions compared to Rio to host international sport events. I never questioned that nor I think otherwise, but... I think BA is ready to host this YOG, because I see infraestructure improving, even if little by little, and the event is 5 years away, a lot of time to continue improving. And, of course, because it's a small event that doesn't require an irrational amount of spent (of course, we're not ready for OG and even PanAms yet). Yes, I know about the accident, that moved the government to go buy the new trains of the news article I linked to you. The important thing is that I see a reaction of the government to the complains of the people, unlike what many more critical argentinians think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reindeer Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 Reindeer, where are you from? you seem to have your fair share of travel across America. This might seem overly cautious but I prefer not to reveal too much of myself. It's not just due to travel but yes, I know first handedly the whole Cono Sur and especially Buenos Aires quite well over many years now. I don't have time or interest to follow Argentine politics very closely especially being away from there so I don't have a clear view over those issues. I can however say something about the infrastructure, especially transport system, and I want to emphasise that in fact over the years I have seen Buenos Aires' infrastructure improving, often frustratingly slow but still improving so I don't share Danny's view that the city is completely in ruins and going towards disaster. For example, the ridiculously old wagons he has seen must be the original carriages of the first subway line that have been replaced now. The subway is not the major problem, because trains have more delays and are more dangerous, especially in the Sarmiento line like those tragic accidents show. Still, these problems haven't been wiped under the carpet and they are being discussed and criticized in media. Also the airport has a new, modern terminal now, so things get better, it just takes time. Buenos Aires is currently far from being a first world city but it's even further away from most major cities in Latin America and other developing world metropolis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ofan Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 the governemnt sucks. That's a fact, LDOG. Well with rediculously reckless statements like this, its not a surprise you are receiving this backlash Danny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 Well with rediculously reckless statements like this, its not a surprise you are receiving this backlash Danny. "and the governemnt sucks" That is an opinion not fact fyi Unfortunatelly, Argentine governement do sucks. For example, what to say about lyings on casting the economic numbers. Meanwhile ALL independent sources say inflation in Argentina is bigger than 20%/year, Indec (the government body for statistics) say the inflation is 8%. This causes a lot of problems to Argentine economy, not to mention all other crazy acts President Cristina Kirchner did in the last years: like freezing prices by law, avoiding Argentines to buy dollars or any other foreign currency... To not recognize the country needs 500-pesos or 1,000-pesos bills because of inflation and keep priting only 100-pesos bills, indeed, printing it in Brazil, since Argentina does not have capacity to print the amount of 100-pesos bills they need in daily-basis... I'm sure you guys are not up-to-date on Argentine government stuff like we in South America are due regional news sources. What sucessive Peronistas/Judicialista Party (Argentine populism) governments made with Argentina in the last 30 years or so is a crime. It's the only history in the modern society of a country that was high-developed and in 4 or 5 decades became a developing country... It's like some South Korea upside down. Be sure, it's very clear to me that it's more interesting to Brazil to have strong neighbours than poorer ones. Like Bill Clinton said, "It's the economy, stupid!" Ok, I get your point of view. Of course, I know BA is in much worse conditions compared to Rio to host international sport events. I never questioned that nor I think otherwise, but... I think BA is ready to host this YOG, because I see infraestructure improving, even if little by little, and the event is 5 years away, a lot of time to continue improving. And, of course, because it's a small event that doesn't require an irrational amount of spent (of course, we're not ready for OG and even PanAms yet). Yes, I know about the accident, that moved the government to go buy the new trains of the news article I linked to you. The important thing is that I see a reaction of the government to the complains of the people, unlike what many more critical argentinians think. I agree. I must confess I'm not sure how big is YOG, since, we barely got news feed of the first YOG in Singapore... But all I saw in Buenos Aires was a decadent, but charming city, with lots to improve, and I do hope this games be a turnover point for you guys. Good to know Argentine govt. finally made something to stop the sucessive train crashes. That's really sad. Workers in commute should not pay with their lives for the incompetence of politicians. (This is valid for Brazil too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 PS: I'm sure LDOG is wise enough to recognize Mrs. Kirchner is doing a mess with Argentina. I don't share Danny's view that the city is completely in ruins and going towards disaster. For example, the ridiculously old wagons he has seen must be the original carriages of the first subway line that have been replaced now. The subway is not the major problem, because trains have more delays and are more dangerous, especially in the Sarmiento line like those tragic accidents show. Still, these problems haven't been wiped under the carpet and they are being discussed and criticized in media. Also the airport has a new, modern terminal now, so things get better, it just takes time. Buenos Aires is currently far from being a first world city but it's even further away from most major cities in Latin America and other developing world metropolis. I didn't traveled in the historic line, with wooden wagons. I must next time. This is special to keep: the historical line, since Buenos Aires is the city with the oldest subway in South America. And I was to comment about that. The Buenos Aires Airport new terminals are far better than any Airport in Brazil now.And, Reindeer, I never said Buenos Aires is going towards disaster, but c'mon, Downtown area are falling in pieces. It's hard to find a telephone booth or a sidewalk in perfect conditions of maintenance. Not to mention the grafitti all around. We do have a problem with grafitti in Brazil, but Buenos Aires made me think Sao Paulo is a graffiti-zero city...The once Paris of South looked like more a "Sao Paulo of South" to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Mata Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 São Paulo of the South? With that you're also saying BsAs is richer, more multicultural and more influent than beloved Rio de Janeiro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshi Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 I actually think Danny just wants the best for Argentina, he doesn't hate it, more sees it as a country that isn't fulfilling its potential, & deep down, he wants BA & Argentina to modernise a bit & succeed. Football, of course, is a different story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDOG Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 Well, first of all, I don't believe in categoric statements like "the government sucks", just like that, in every aspect. Except few governments in the history of humankind, everyone of them has had strong and weak points, and I have already pointed out some of both kinds about the current government of Argentina on this thread. And about Peronism/Justicialism I would not recommend you saying it's =populism. Plus, Peronism has become too broad a term to qualify a politician in Argentina, Peronism has encompassed from centre right (e. g. Menem) to centre left (Kirchners, though a member of the true leftist party will argue you to death why this government isn't leftist at all) throughout it's history. Right now, the government and the top opposition representant (Kirchner vs Massa) are both "peronist", though Massa's project doesn't have anything to do with Kirchner's... About the "populist" thing (I don't like the use of this trendy term at all, what kind of goverment isn't populist, an "anti-populist"? that is contradictory to the purpose of a government itself), the only populist goverments Argentina has had are Peron's first presidency and Kirchner's, so I wouldn't say we have a long history of populism that ruined the country, I could argue even the contrary, that the only periods in which the country hasn't been a complete disaster where those. And that in the middle we had 40 years of right wing gov., heavily dependant on credit organisms and financial gamble (and that was the period in which, coincidentally, the city infraestrucure has stopped developing). But I think this isn't matter of discussion for a forum about sport events. Oh, and some curious trivia: the only governments that have been able to finish their terms in the last 70 years are all the peronists. That maybe why people don't like to choose another thing anymore... BTW is there any way to edit my posts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDOG Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 To sum up. Ms. Kirchner's government has had bad and good things. Good: Media law, fight for equality of rights, reducing unemployment and poverty, reactivation of some industries that were completely dead, fight (not using the term literally, people) for the Falklands' south atlantic resources, overall integration of the provinces in the economic run of the country (so the country doesn't become too BA dependant on everything). Bad: the financial and statistical problems Danny has pointed out. The vertical nature of her government (too dependant on her or her late husband's figure). The selection of some officials that are unqualified for their jobs (e. g. the minister of economy and most of his subordinates). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDOG Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 Add to the "bad" part the energetic problems. And to the "good" part the increase of income for the retired people. (Sorry, I don't know how to edit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 I actually think Danny just wants the best for Argentina, he doesn't hate it, more sees it as a country that isn't fulfilling its potential, & deep down, he wants BA & Argentina to modernise a bit & succeed. Football, of course, is a different story And with this correct post I end my participation in this very discussion. Now it's time to discuss what Buenos Aires will show to the world. The YOGs were already awarded, time to think the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 São Paulo of the South? With that you're also saying BsAs is richer, more multicultural and more influent than beloved Rio de Janeiro? Buenos Aires multicultural? They are very proud they are 90% or more Europeans-like. You got what I meant, don't play childish. I was talking about BA be an oridnary and chaotic big latin american city just like Rio or Sao Paulo more than the image of an European city in South America... To sum up. Ms. Kirchner's government has had bad and good things. Good: Media law, fight for equality of rights, reducing unemployment and poverty, reactivation of some industries that were completely dead, fight (not using the term literally, people) for the Falklands' south atlantic resources, overall integration of the provinces in the economic run of the country (so the country doesn't become too BA dependant on everything). Bad: the financial and statistical problems Danny has pointed out. The vertical nature of her government (too dependant on her or her late husband's figure). The selection of some officials that are unqualified for their jobs (e. g. the minister of economy and most of his subordinates). Sorry, I don't share most of the good points you posted. But it doesn't matter, future, focus in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDOG Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 Ok, Dannyel. It's very tiresome to reply about politics on a sports forum to be sincere, would like to focus posting only on the sport infrastructure in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshi Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 I have to say, Argentina didn't do themselves any favours by bidding for the Pan Am 2019 with the middle of nowhere, they'd have had a good chance with BA. And Danny, would I be right in saying that deep down, you want 2018 to go well for BA and Argentina, & help them towards bidding for & hosting a successful Pan Am, & bidding for (& even hosting) a Summer Olympics in future? Moving on, the opening ceremony in BA could be good with Argentina wanting to 'come out' to the world, the only Argentine OC I've seen anything of was the World Cup 1978, things have moved on since then. I would be amazed if we don't see the rings formed by tango dancers ala Barca. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 I won't be praying for any event to go badly. I wish all the lucky to BA and they will need it. About after 2018, IMO, Buenos Aires will be the next South American host of a Olympic. I've said this several times here on GB. It's a natural choice. The big question is when BA will be ready for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCatra Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Mr. Danny, I'm not sure you want an advice but I'll give it anyway: your 'e-hatred' (we know you don't really, you love BsAs) towards Argentina was funny until Argies showed up. Now that they showed up and are trying to debate you end up sounding obtuse, xenophobic, etc. You should stop it because we know you're none of that. Anyways, to Mr. LCOG: great replies, my friendo. It'd be easier for you to just pick up flaws in Rio to destroy Danny's emotionally. Hehe. But you kept your composure. Well done. Now, strictly speaking about economy/politics, I agree with Mr. Danny. The cliché reply of "She did good and bad things" from people that are trying to pose as impartial/knowledgeable usually infuriates me. She and her husband are rulling Argentine for more than a decade. It'd be impossible to only do bad things. But if you say that - not sure it was your intention - you let implied that she equally did bad and good things. Which is not the case. She fucked up really bad and wont be her that will have to face the consequences. Her successor will be fucked up. The commodity bubble is awaiting to burst (obama's socialism only delayed it) and it'll hit us all but some more than others. Right now Brazil and Argentina are on the same boat, Brazil, of course, is in a much better situation but if we keep PT on the presidency we will be hit hard by the crisis. Did PT do good and bad things? Yes. But why should I say that? We elected capable people or idiots? Kirchner and Lula were needed early in the last decade but their politics are leading both countries to a economical disaster. BUT, I still have hope for Brazil, Argentina already crossed the line. So many horrible indicators and she's doing nothing to change it. At least Dilma is running away from the pathetic south-american zoocialism a bit. Opening the Ports sector, privatizing airpots, roads and railroads, etc. It's late but the protests of june and the pathetic grow of the economy forced her to change. Is this happening in Argentina or people are simply happy because they are better than they were prior to Mr. Kirchner? Probably the latter. Problem is that they were trully fucked up back then, anyone could improve from that. To finish this, I'll say it's a shame to see BsAs which once was an example for a whole continent now it's just a typical South American metropolity, which is what I assume to be Mr. Danny's real sentiment towards argies. PS: "(because they obviously want to make Cristina look like she's crazy)" And she isn't? lol. Just joking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 As I said before, Catra, I don't like you style at all, but in the end, I agree with most of your post. About me (and you insist on losing your time with analysis about my personality), my ironic posts towards our "friendos" will keep the same. I still will never support them in any sports competition, specially, playing against Brazil and it would un-Brazilian to not make jokes with Argentines as much it would be un-Argentine to not make jokes with Brazil (since they keep their common-place racist jokes out of discussion. No "macaquitos", please). BTW, Pele is better than Maradona, even Fred or Hulk is better than Maradona... just to make things clear. More, Catrinha, I appreciate a lot the comic vain of Argentines. Their version of CQC is far more funny than Brazilian one and somehow, I love the "pride-depreciative" kind of humour of them. It's unique. Otherwise, we have own our style of humour, even Germans, they say, have some sense of humour, and the life goes on.I do hope Argentines come with their sense of humour towards Brazil... Are we neighbours or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDOG Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Mr. Danny, I'm not sure you want an advice but I'll give it anyway: your 'e-hatred' (we know you don't really, you love BsAs) towards Argentina was funny until Argies showed up. Now that they showed up and are trying to debate you end up sounding obtuse, xenophobic, etc. You should stop it because we know you're none of that. Anyways, to Mr. LCOG: great replies, my friendo. It'd be easier for you to just pick up flaws in Rio to destroy Danny's emotionally. Hehe. But you kept your composure. Well done. Now, strictly speaking about economy/politics, I agree with Mr. Danny. The cliché reply of "She did good and bad things" from people that are trying to pose as impartial/knowledgeable usually infuriates me. She and her husband are rulling Argentine for more than a decade. It'd be impossible to only do bad things. But if you say that - not sure it was your intention - you let implied that she equally did bad and good things. Which is not the case. She fucked up really bad and wont be her that will have to face the consequences. Her successor will be fucked up. The commodity bubble is awaiting to burst (obama's socialism only delayed it) and it'll hit us all but some more than others. Right now Brazil and Argentina are on the same boat, Brazil, of course, is in a much better situation but if we keep PT on the presidency we will be hit hard by the crisis. Did PT do good and bad things? Yes. But why should I say that? We elected capable people or idiots? Kirchner and Lula were needed early in the last decade but their politics are leading both countries to a economical disaster. BUT, I still have hope for Brazil, Argentina already crossed the line. So many horrible indicators and she's doing nothing to change it. At least Dilma is running away from the pathetic south-american zoocialism a bit. Opening the Ports sector, privatizing airpots, roads and railroads, etc. It's late but the protests of june and the pathetic grow of the economy forced her to change. Is this happening in Argentina or people are simply happy because they are better than they were prior to Mr. Kirchner? Probably the latter. Problem is that they were trully fucked up back then, anyone could improve from that. To finish this, I'll say it's a shame to see BsAs which once was an example for a whole continent now it's just a typical South American metropolity, which is what I assume to be Mr. Danny's real sentiment towards argies. PS: "(because they obviously want to make Cristina look like she's crazy)" And she isn't? lol. Just joking. Well, there we go again 1) Yes, she did good and bad things, it's not a cliché, it's a fact. Will some of the good things have negative consecuences for the future? (like the huge "gasto público" -don't know translation, sorry- needed to keep all the social asistance and state companies), probably, but we'll have to wait for the future to know better. For you it's mostly bad because you center your criticism on the financial aspects, but that's not all a government is about IMO (but, i insist, all the critics about financial aspects you both have posted are true, no one is denying that). 2) No, people in Argentina, as you may guess, aren't happy at all. She will lose badly the parliamentary elections in a few days and she's being mercilessly criticised every day by 80% of the media (mainly because of the media law which fucked up their little monopolic business, but still). I'm only an argentinian that is trying to look both at the good and the bad, and not focus only on the bad or only on the good, which is what 90% of argentinians do (being complete haters or being acritical fanatics) . 3) Rumors say she will remove many of her staff people after the bad elections, but we have to wait. Plus, I insist, she's got only 2 years left with no real sucessor (not even Scioli will follow her politics) and now with no parliamentary help, she'll have to change some strategies. 4) I think you're being overly pesimistic about both Brazil and Argentina and the "commodity bubble", but that would be an endless debate here. Also, "Obama's socialism"?? come on lol PS: yeah, she's not crazy, she's just at a dead end because she feels she cannot go back from her old speech, which was useful 8 years ago but not today. And also because she's got very bad advisors sorrounding her. I hope she can see light after these elections and modify both aspects in the 2 years remaining. PS2: this will be my last post about politics too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCatra Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Legal! I'll just point out one thing. I know she did good and bad things, I'm saying she wasn't equally good as bad. When you say she did good and band things you imply she was average. But in reality he's destroying Argentina's economy. Anyways, I hope you're right about my pessimism but I'm afraid you aren't. To Mr. Danny, at least, then, don't be a hypocrite when people go to Rio 2016 to cast criticism to Rio. Your criticism towards do to BsAs/Argentina is way worse than what the gringos to do Rio. You sound very xenophobic in your rants against Argentina. Ask any of the neutrals. Some posted in this own thread. Especially because BsAs is a much better place to live than Rio and if it had the full support of a centralized federal government like Rio does, it could host a great Summer Olympics Edition, just like Rio will do in a couple of years. ps: At least for now that Obama still printing dollars to keep the economy afloat. To foreigners: brazilians and argentina have no rivalry at all outside of football. It's just the biggest Media Conglomerate of brazil built this rivalry and some people brought it.We are friendly countries and the only war both countries participated was in conjunction to destroy Paraguay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 To foreigners: brazilians and argentina have no rivalry at all outside of football. It's just the biggest Media Conglomerate of brazil built this rivalry and some people brought it.We are friendly countries and the only war both countries participated was in conjunction to destroy Paraguay. From Argentina: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 ^^A masterpiece... An Argentine father is shamed because the son appreciates Brazil..."Dad, I'm... I'm... Uh... I'm Brazilian" Drama soundtrack and cut to the father's face. I love Argentine humour! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 I'm more like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlQ2w_Qay1s Catrinha, the subject here is Buenos Aires, infra-structure, Argentina, Youth Games... not DannyelBrazil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDOG Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 I don't get what you're trying to prove, all those tv ads are focused on football, I don't see a problem with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted October 11, 2013 Report Share Posted October 11, 2013 I don't get what you're trying to prove, all those tv ads are focused on football, I don't see a problem with them That's my point... It's all jokes, most related to sports, not a die-hard rivalry between Brazil and Argentina as Catra pointed I'm feeding here. Sorry, guys, in sports, I'll NEVER support Argentina as much as I can't find an Argentine wearing a Brazil national team t-shirt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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