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Athensfan
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Well, you have really misrepresented me in this one. You have taken the sentence when I mention a possible solution for the US to encourage cities to bid repetitively and presents it as a statement about the US chances to win...

Then you make bad comparisons which indeed strengthen rather than weaken my arguments. Except for London, the remaining bidders were running agaist lame ducks or other non repeting bidders.

So, basically you are telling me my arguments are invalid because you believe that repeat bids have the upper hand, except when they don't. So what exactly are you saying, except that everything is an exception?

The NY 2012 experience didn't seem to have added anything to the Chicago bid. Running against weaker competitors, it actually did worse. That happens mainly because the city seems to be the one really pushing the bid, instead of the NOC.

Uh, you clearly have zero insight into the Chicago bid. You are clearly unaware of the in depth studies undertaken of literally every aspect of the NYC bid. You are clearly unaware of exactly how intertwined the USOC and the Chicago bid committee are, right down to joint roles and decision making on every aspect of the bid.

Mainly, what needs to change in the way the Americans run olympic campaigns is to understand that the USOC must have a leading role in the process, raher than just choose a city and support the bid during the campaign.

You have no idea how the USOC and US Olympic bids work. None at all.

When I say the USOC should lead the campaign it means mostly going after money to... building relationship with the IOC to influence the votes.

Sounds like bribery to me.

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If LA bid what would be the stadium? Would they compromise the NFL potential of Farmer's Field to include athletics? Would the Bears move from Soldiers Field? Who would use any NY stadium now that the New Meadowlands has been built? Would the 49ers accept the compromises necessary for a 49ers stadium?

Now consider the main European cities and stadiums::

Paris - Stade de France,already used by the national rugby,football teams and Stade Francais

Madrid - Olympic stadium will be used by Athletico Madrid

Rome - Olympic stadium already used by Roma and Lazio

Istanbul - Ataturk Olympic stadium already used by the Turkish National Team

Berlin - Olympic stadium, already used by Hertha Berlin

I think you find American bids have more post games Stadium use issues than other bidders

I think the evidence doesn't support your view. Firstly, look at recent US games:

- LA memorial colliseum - one of the most highly post-games used stadiums and was intended again to be the core of the 2016 bid

- Atlanta - an active baseball stadium

- Chicago would have been a community track at a sustainable size

Now, look at other cities

- London 1908 stadium? Demolished. So much for legacy

- London 1948 stadium? Demolished. So much for legacy

- London 2012 stadium? Big plans, but I bet my 2040 it will be demolished too.

- Beijing 2008 stadium? Abandoned, to be turned into a shopping mall last I heard

- Athens 2004 stadium? Not sure, but a lot of the facilities appear abandoned

- Sydney 2000 stadium? Sold for less than 10 cents on the dollar.

The US has a far better track record on this!

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If Chicago had the will, they could acquire land a couple of miles west of Soldier Field to put a temporary stadium or build a new park for MLS soccer. The main negative is the unsightly rail yard across the river, but there is enough land to do something. (You can see Soldier Field on the far right of the picture).

fireshot-capture-044-chicago-il-google-maps-maps_google_com.png

LA will not be getting two NFL teams anytime soon. Getting one team is certainly possible, but not two.

NYC already has two MLB teams with brand spanking new stadiums, unless a 3rd MLB comes to NYC (highly unlikely), it will not be an option for using an Olympic stadium as a ballpark post games. I don't know if the NFL would even seem like a viable tenant for post Games. Meadowlands is so new, and it is lucrative the way things are setup as is.

Why can't SF 49ers just tear down their current stadium, and build on the same land? The Bears had to play at U or I for their home games one season, but it was fine.

I don't see the Bears leaving Soldier Field anytime in my lifetime. The stadium has too much history, and it is still relatively new.

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Why can't SF 49ers just tear down their current stadium, and build on the same land?

That's what the City has been hoping all these years. The problem is the site. The team finds it problematic, traffic-wise, and it is usually chilly. Candlestick is kinds stuck in some promontory where there is only 1 freeway access. The location at Santa Clara is at the confluence of 3 freeways so access will NOT be a problem.

If SF were flush with cash, it could probably build its own stadium...but who would occupy it? Anyway, there is just one last piece left unfulfilled in the Santa Clara package, and it looks like the 49ers and the NFL will resolve that soon. So, for all intents and purposes, the San Francisco 49ers will become the Santa Clara 49ers in a few years. (San Francisco could always revert to the 2012 plan; share hosting duties with San Jose, and then place the village back at Moffett Field. But that would take Olympic visitors out of the BART circuit and most certainly have everyone on the freeways. With dedicated lanes, it still might work; but the various distances would be much greater.

Now Reno 2022/26 would offer NO SUCH problems.

If San Jose alone had 25,000 more hotel rooms, they could probably lead an Olympic bid on their own. But even right now, SJ is also bankrupt.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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A "San Jose" bid would be just like an "Arlington" bid. A pseudo "San Francisco", "Dallas" bid. The IOC wouldn't bite.

But I think that with the uncontrolled expense of bidding, let alone hosting an Olympic Games, the IOC might have to loosen those strictures a bit. Athens OAKA was almost on the edge of Athens...nearly 1-hour from the heart of downtown Athens.

Or as I was proposing for a New York/Meadowlands bid, change the boundaries for those 2 weeks so that it complies with the ridiculously narrow IOC confines. (And then return the boundaries to their previous state right after.)

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I think the evidence doesn't support your view. Firstly, look at recent US games:

- LA memorial colliseum - one of the most highly post-games used stadiums and was intended again to be the core of the 2016 bid

- Atlanta - an active baseball stadium

- Chicago would have been a community track at a sustainable size

Now, look at other cities

- London 1908 stadium? Demolished. So much for legacy

- London 1948 stadium? Demolished. So much for legacy

- London 2012 stadium? Big plans, but I bet my 2040 it will be demolished too.

- Beijing 2008 stadium? Abandoned, to be turned into a shopping mall last I heard

- Athens 2004 stadium? Not sure, but a lot of the facilities appear abandoned

- Sydney 2000 stadium? Sold for less than 10 cents on the dollar.

The US has a far better track record on this!

Nice twisting of facts

2016? Every city has a 'plan' no guarantee it wouldn't turn into a white elephant

1908 the White City stadium. Yes demolished but only after being used for 58years including the 1966 World Cup and only demolished in 1985. How often to American NFL teams ask for new stadia? The Metrodome in Minneapolis is only 30years old - Texas Stadium not much older ... White City was twice as old.

1948 last time I checked Wembley which wasn't designed as an athletics stadium and used as an emergency as a favour to the Olympic movement was rebuild into the worlds leading soccer stadium. After over 50years of use.

Old stadium tend to be rebuilt especially when over 50 years to include modern luxuries

2012 there is 100% no chance it will be demolished. It is being altered to include sliding seats over the track so a football team can use it. It is going to be the UK's main athletics venue as Crystal Palace is to be sold to the football club of its name. Please keep up

2008 Beijing is hosting the 2015 World Athletics Championship. I doubt athletes will be asked to dodge shopping trolleys. It also regularly holds football games including European club head to heads

2004 Athens is the home ground of the soccer clubs AEK Athens, Panathinaikos and the Green National Team so around about 40 games a year

2000 Sydney is the home ground of Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs, South Sydney Rabbitohs in Rugby League, Sydney Swans of Aussie Rules, the State of Origin Rugby League, NSW Waratahs in Rugby Union, the Aussie Rugby Team, 20/20 cricket and hosted the 2003 RWC Final. So heavy usage.

Really the only two examples you could use would be 1992 Barcelona and 1972 Munich. The latter has 34years of regular use and only the architects refusal to accept changes led to the Bayern moving. It is still regularly used for athletics. In Barcelona the stadium is now used yet but Espanyol were the tennant club for a dozen years and it now hosts an athletics club, European championships and so rugby games.

And concerts are held at all of the venues so they are at least if not more heavily used than either LA or Atlanta

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But I think that with the uncontrolled expense of bidding, let alone hosting an Olympic Games, the IOC might have to loosen those strictures a bit. Athens OAKA was almost on the edge of Athens...nearly 1-hour from the heart of downtown Athens.

But *distance* wise, we're only talking about 10 miles. San Francisco to San Jose is a far-flung 40 miles. Huge difference, & would be a logistical issue as far as transportation is concerned.

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I think the evidence doesn't support your view. Firstly, look at recent US games:

- LA memorial colliseum - one of the most highly post-games used stadiums and was intended again to be the core of the 2016 bid

- Atlanta - an active baseball stadium

- Chicago would have been a community track at a sustainable size

Now, look at other cities

- London 1908 stadium? Demolished. So much for legacy

- London 1948 stadium? Demolished. So much for legacy

- London 2012 stadium? Big plans, but I bet my 2040 it will be demolished too.

- Beijing 2008 stadium? Abandoned, to be turned into a shopping mall last I heard

- Athens 2004 stadium? Not sure, but a lot of the facilities appear abandoned

- Sydney 2000 stadium? Sold for less than 10 cents on the dollar.

The US has a far better track record on this!

While I agree with your overall point that US Olympic hosts have as good a track record, if not better than other cities, be careful where your context is on those examples.

Los Angeles is an exception to the rule. They have 2 stadiums that have lasted nearly a century (not to mention a baseball stadium that's been around for half a century that isn't going anywhere anytime soon). But with London, the 1908 stadium stood for nearly 8 decades. And the 1948 stadium was replaced by a new venue on the same site. Not the same of course, but the plans for London's 2012 stadium seem no worse than Chicago's 2016 plan to turn the stadium into a 10,000 whatever after the games. Not that the timing would have allowed for it, but I'd rather have seen them used Soldier Field since I except that to be around for a long long time. And with Atlanta.. yes, they found a great post-games use for it, but how long will that stadium stand before it starts to get old and they're looking to replace it.

Beijing 2008 is certainly a massive white elephant, so won't argue with that one. Athens' Olympic Stadium was constructed long before the 2004 Olympics and from what I've read still hosts concerts and other sporting events, although it's true that many of the secondary facilities aren't used anymore. And with Sydney, so far as I know that's still a thriving sports venue and IMHO, exactly what an Olympic Stadium should be.. a major sports venue that continues to function as a major sports venue. I've been to Turner Field before.. I remember thinking am I really in an Olympic Stadium. London is going to downsize their stadium eventually (Sydney did, but it's still an 80,000 seat stadium used for major events). That continues to be my pet peeve about some of these Olympic bids, particularly Chicago 2016. Atlanta I'll give a pass to because at least that stadium is guaranteed to be used no less than 81 times a year. But I sincerely hope that any and all future Olympic bids are based around either the modernization/renovation of an existing facility or the construction of a signature sports facility that will continue to be a signature sports facility. If the IOC is all about legacy as we know they are, I think that's what it should be.

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And concerts are held at all of the venues so they are at least if not more heavily used than either LA or Atlanta

LA Memorial hosts USC's home football games. It hosts int'l football friendlies between Latin American teams. It hosts graduation ceremonies of LA public schools. It hosts "mosh-pit" events!

The Braves organization pretty much just limits Turner Field to Braves' Games.

U.S. stadia also host Met Opera simulcasts.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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LA Memorial hosts USC's home football games. It hosts int'l football friendlies between Latin American teams. It hosts graduation ceremonies of LA public schools. It hosts "mosh-pit" events!

The Braves organization pretty much just limits Turner Field to Braves' Games.

U.S. stadia also host Met Opera simulcasts.

The Trojans will play 7 games at the Colisuem

Panathanikos and Aek Athens will play at least 34 games at the Athens Olympic stadium. Add cup games. Add international games.

So the Coliseum will host 45+ games - that's the Trojans 7 and then ......?

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While I agree with your overall point that US Olympic hosts have as good a track record, if not better than other cities, be careful where your context is on those examples.

Los Angeles is an exception to the rule. They have 2 stadiums that have lasted nearly a century (not to mention a baseball stadium that's been around for half a century that isn't going anywhere anytime soon). But with London, the 1908 stadium stood for nearly 8 decades. And the 1948 stadium was replaced by a new venue on the same site. Not the same of course, but the plans for London's 2012 stadium seem no worse than Chicago's 2016 plan to turn the stadium into a 10,000 whatever after the games. Not that the timing would have allowed for it, but I'd rather have seen them used Soldier Field since I except that to be around for a long long time. And with Atlanta.. yes, they found a great post-games use for it, but how long will that stadium stand before it starts to get old and they're looking to replace it.

Beijing 2008 is certainly a massive white elephant, so won't argue with that one. Athens' Olympic Stadium was constructed long before the 2004 Olympics and from what I've read still hosts concerts and other sporting events, although it's true that many of the secondary facilities aren't used anymore. And with Sydney, so far as I know that's still a thriving sports venue and IMHO, exactly what an Olympic Stadium should be.. a major sports venue that continues to function as a major sports venue. I've been to Turner Field before.. I remember thinking am I really in an Olympic Stadium. London is going to downsize their stadium eventually (Sydney did, but it's still an 80,000 seat stadium used for major events). That continues to be my pet peeve about some of these Olympic bids, particularly Chicago 2016. Atlanta I'll give a pass to because at least that stadium is guaranteed to be used no less than 81 times a year. But I sincerely hope that any and all future Olympic bids are based around either the modernization/renovation of an existing facility or the construction of a signature sports facility that will continue to be a signature sports facility. If the IOC is all about legacy as we know they are, I think that's what it should be.

London's Olympic stadium will host at least 20 soccer games each season as well as being the new National Athletics stadium so a couple of Diamond League matches. It was realised they only needed to drop the capacity from 80,000 to 60,000 rather than basically take an 85,000 season stadium and 'demolish' it down to 15,000 as Chicago proposed.

Beijing whilst not having major use was actually planned to have Beijing Guoan but they pulled out. However merely as a tourist attraction it apparently draws 20,000 a day paying $7.50 dollars more than covering its operating costs and will be spruced up for the World Athletics Championship in 2015

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OAKA was NOT an hour from downtown Athens. I was there. I stayed in Kolonaki and, if memory serves, the travel time was around 20 minutes. I went to events all over the region and none of the travel times for the events I attended was even close to an hour from the city center. Ancient Olympia and some of the football venues were the furthest away and it did take hours to get to them.

DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ!!

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London's Olympic stadium will host at least 20 soccer games each season as well as being the new National Athletics stadium so a couple of Diamond League matches. It was realised they only needed to drop the capacity from 80,000 to 60,000 rather than basically take an 85,000 season stadium and 'demolish' it down to 15,000 as Chicago proposed.

It was actually worse, by the end of the bid the proposed "amphitheater" was down to a measly 5,000 seats. I agree, that Soldier Field would have been an awesome venue if only they had renovated with the Olympics in mind. Now we have a newer stadium that can't accommodate a track and field, and only seats 61,000 people.

Edited by Soaring
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It was actually worse, by the end of the bid the proposed "amphitheater" was down to a measly 5,000 seats. I agree, that Soldier Field would have been an awesome venue if only they had renovated with the Olympics in mind. Now we have a newer stadium that can't accommodate a track and field, and only seats 61,000 people.

I'm afraid LA will follow suit. It would make so much more sense to just renovate the Coliseum, but the powers that be aren't going for it.

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Now that we know about the American government's position, when it comes to Palestine, will it withdraw from the IOC because of Palestinian participation in the Olympic Games? Some people want this to happen because a European-centric organization recognizes the Palestinians with a recognized NOC. This does not bode well for future US bids for the Olympic Games.

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Now that we know about the American government's position, when it comes to Palestine, will it withdraw from the IOC because of Palestinian participation in the Olympic Games? Some people want this to happen because a European-centric organization recognizes the Palestinians with a recognized NOC. This does not bode well for future US bids for the Olympic Games.

Wow, u're out of left field again, Guardian. The US, nor other gov'ts, cannot withdraw from the IOC because they (including the US gov't) and the IOC really do not have reciprocal relations. They do NOT have ambassadors to each other. The USOC takes care of the IOC's business in the USA; and Easton/de Frantz are NOT America's reps to the IOC but the other way around: they represent the IOC's interests to the U.S. Besides, the USOC is a non-governmental, non-profit entity that survives on private donations and its own sources of income. So how can "the U.S. gov't withdraw from the IOC" if neither technically does not recognize the other?? :blink:

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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The US believes that the Olympic Games are no place for politics. There will never be a repeat of Moscow 1980.

It is rather difficult to recognize a nation that doesn't even have set boundaries. The US position is not anti-Palestinian, it is anti-forcing international will on Israel at the expense of diplomacy and compromise. They are two radically different things. One could argue that the US position is actually far more in line with Olympic ideals.

I do not see this issue compromising American standing in the IOC.

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Nice twisting of facts

1908 the White City stadium. Yes demolished but only after being used for 58years including the 1966 World Cup and only demolished in 1985. How often to American NFL teams ask for new stadia? The Metrodome in Minneapolis is only 30years old - Texas Stadium not much older ... White City was twice as old.

1948 last time I checked Wembley which wasn't designed as an athletics stadium and used as an emergency as a favour to the Olympic movement was rebuild into the worlds leading soccer stadium. After over 50years of use.

Old stadium tend to be rebuilt especially when over 50 years to include modern luxuries

2012 there is 100% no chance it will be demolished. It is being altered to include sliding seats over the track so a football team can use it. It is going to be the UK's main athletics venue as Crystal Palace is to be sold to the football club of its name. Please keep up

Completely agree re: 1908 and 1948 stadiums. It's easy to say "oh, they were demolished" but both had decades of use! Using them as examples of white elephants is like calling the old Yankees stadium a failure because it too was demolished. A complete non-argument, in other words.

The 2012 situation you haven't got quite right, and in truth the stadium legacy plans have become something of a mess as of late, though hopefully they'll be sorted before the Games. West Ham were going to buy the leasehold of the stadium but Newham council, with whom they were partnered, pulled out of the venture after it looked likely they were going to become entangled in an EU court case over the legality of the money they were loaning the football club. Therefore, that tender process was scrapped a month ago and a new one is starting which aims to instead keep the stadium in public ownership with a number of organisations renting the ground. The plan is to reduce capacity to 60k. But, as I understand it, the temporary upper tier has a lifespan of only 2 or 3 decades (it was originally designed to be demolished straight after the Games). And I've read today that the new tender process won't start until AFTER the 2017 WAC decision has been made so there is, I suspect, still a possibility - if London loses - that the stadium will be downsized to 25k, as was originally proposed with Leyton Orient, not West Ham, being the main tenants. All very confusing and not really relevent to this thread, but thought I'd correct some of your points.

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