CanisMinor Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 BUT it is the international perception which they failed to address. Not really. It is the anti-americanism that they failed to address. - Atlanta was a highly profitable games for the IOC and for the USOC - It was highly successful for the viewers and attendees - It was highly successful for the athletes - Along with Barcelona it is simply the best example of how a games can transfer a mid-tier city - The legacy use of the Atlanta venues is unparalleled. Unlike the empty white-elephant venues of Sydney, Athens, and Beijing, Atlanta has made good use of all the investment Addressing the negative points: - The transport issue is ridiculous. There were a handful of isolated incidences. These were less significant than the initial empty seats and the security blunders London faced, and less than occurred in Athens by far - If you want to call Atlanta "a car crash" based on the few random internet editorials you have linked to, then I guess, the judging debacles in the fencing, triathlon, cycling and swimming in London, together with the above empty seats and security blunders, would mean London should be called a "cruise-ship wreck" As to the criticism that "coke bought the games". Wait a second - this is the same Coke that is a top sponsor. This is the same Coke that the IOC is desperately trying to get more revenues from - to the extent that they are prepared to humiliate Chicago just to force the USOC to give up more money from this Coke. Seems to me, Coke's money should be a plus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 I enjoyed Atlanta as the first Games I remember, but I think you're being rather selective with your analogies and comparisons with London there Canis. London had problems with its security recruitment prior to the Games, but the Games were secure. Do you really want me to start that comparison with Atlanta? London had some empty seats caused mostly by the IOC and accredited members not taking them up. This has been an issue at nearly all Olympics. Atlanta, like most Games before and since, had a lot more empty seats than London but it wasn't raised as an issue because there wasn't a disgruntled public who'd tried for a year to get tickets to no avail. The demand was astonishing in London, that's why a relatively small number of empty seats made headlines, whilst a lot more empty seats in Atlanta didn't.. I'm going to quote Sir Rols' blog here.... The stadium was packed – and enthusiastic. This was a huge contrast compared to when I’d attended exactly the same first morning athletics preliminaries in 1996. In Atlanta, this exact same session was almost empty, a meagre crowd at best, and not very animated. Here, not only was it packed, but the crowd was enthusiast, vocal and proud! I couldn’t believe the atmosphere was so electric, especially for a session with no finals. http://www.gamesbids...post__p__362418 I agree Atlatna was absolutely not a car crash - there were lots of good things about it and as I've already said I enjoyed Atlanta. But it did have issues - perhaps more than most Games during Games-time - and your comparisons with London aren't doing your arguments any credit, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USA Gold Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 I enjoyed Atlanta as the first Games I remember, but I think you're being rather selective with your analogies and comparisons with London there Canis. London had problems with its security recruitment prior to the Games, but the Games were secure. Do you really want me to start that comparison with Atlanta? London had some empty seats caused mostly by the IOC and accredited members not taking them up. This has been an issue at nearly all Olympics. Atlanta, like most Games before and since, had a lot more empty seats than London but it wasn't raised as an issue because there wasn't a disgruntled public who'd tried for a year to get tickets to no avail. The demand was astonishing in London, that's why a relatively small number of empty seats made headlines, whilst a lot more empty seats in Atlanta didn't.. I'm going to quote Sir Rols' blog here.... http://www.gamesbids...post__p__362418 I agree Atlatna was absolutely not a car crash - there were lots of good things about it and as I've already said I enjoyed Atlanta. But it did have issues - perhaps more than most Games during Games-time - and your comparisons with London aren't doing your arguments any credit, It wasn't a small number of seats that were unused. If you watched any of the events (North Greenwhich Arena, Earls Court, and Horse Guards Parade specifically), when the camera did a wide shot, there were not just empty seats here or there, but large chunks of seats in the same area empty. Two seats empty here or there will go unnoticed 20-30 seats in the same area will not. I don't remember that in Atlatna when I attended the games. Atlanta didn't have a security issue. You had to go through metal detectors at every venue. Centennial Olympic Park did not have metal detectors, but was fenced off to where there I think were three areas you could enter and exit the park. There shouldn't have been a need metal detectors for a public park. Unfortunately there will also be crazy people out there looking to cause chaos as with what happened on July 27, 1996. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox334 Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 I'm not old enough to remember Atlanta, but from all accounts I've heard they where the most ill-received games of the 1990's and 2000's. Considering how well received SLC was I doubt it's an issue of Anti-Americanism... London had great crowds. I mean, I doubt they had a million people line up the road race course or that they had a crowd that made the TdF blush during the Time Trial. London also had great crowd in niche sports - the atmosphere for sports like Volleyball and Judo was electric, especially when a Brit was involved. And I mean, London just had better venues. Wembley, Wimbledon, Lords, Horse Guard Parade, Greenwich Park... I mean, those are some classy venues and Atlanta didn't have anything comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USA Gold Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 I'm not old enough to remember Atlanta, but from all accounts I've heard they where the most ill-received games of the 1990's and 2000's. Considering how well received SLC was I doubt it's an issue of Anti-Americanism... London had great crowds. I mean, I doubt they had a million people line up the road race course or that they had a crowd that made the TdF blush during the Time Trial. London also had great crowd in niche sports - the atmosphere for sports like Volleyball and Judo was electric, especially when a Brit was involved. And I mean, London just had better venues. Wembley, Wimbledon, Lords, Horse Guard Parade, Greenwich Park... I mean, those are some classy venues and Atlanta didn't have anything comparable. You mean great crowds like the one at the gold medal basketball below . Look at all those empty seats just in the one section. I'm sure I can find more examples. You are right about London having some nicer venues. But London is a much older city. There aren't many buildings in Atlanta that go back more than 100 years or are culturally significant, although the cycling and archery at Stone Mountain had a nice view. In the U.S. there aren't many cities that you could have really unique, historical or culturally significant venues. Cities like Washington DC (National Mall), Philadelphia (Independence Hall), New York (Central Park), St. Louis (Cahokia Mounds, Gateway Arch, Forest Park), Chicago (Lakefront) have some but there would be logistical issues with some like the National Mall. Or how about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksheep Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Not really. It is the anti-americanism that they failed to address. - Atlanta was a highly profitable games for the IOC and for the USOC - It was highly successful for the viewers and attendees - It was highly successful for the athletes - Along with Barcelona it is simply the best example of how a games can transfer a mid-tier city - The legacy use of the Atlanta venues is unparalleled. Unlike the empty white-elephant venues of Sydney, Athens, and Beijing, Atlanta has made good use of all the investment Addressing the negative points: - The transport issue is ridiculous. There were a handful of isolated incidences. These were less significant than the initial empty seats and the security blunders London faced, and less than occurred in Athens by far - If you want to call Atlanta "a car crash" based on the few random internet editorials you have linked to, then I guess, the judging debacles in the fencing, triathlon, cycling and swimming in London, together with the above empty seats and security blunders, would mean London should be called a "cruise-ship wreck" As to the criticism that "coke bought the games". Wait a second - this is the same Coke that is a top sponsor. This is the same Coke that the IOC is desperately trying to get more revenues from - to the extent that they are prepared to humiliate Chicago just to force the USOC to give up more money from this Coke. Seems to me, Coke's money should be a plus! It is not a case of a few editorials - it is a matter of public record that the IOC demanded meetings throughout the games due to ongoing and continuing issues with transportation, and the IT system ... some athletes barely made it to their event start times. After Atlanta, the IOC demanded that all future games would guarantee the government cover any funding shortfall, as the Atlanta organisers scraped around for funny at the last moment. What security blunders ... a set of keys being mislaid. Problems prior to the games which were instantly resolved. What judging controversies? The judging is done by the indivudual sports federations and has nothing to do whatsoeve with LOCOG What empty seats controversy? LOCOG can prove that every single ticket bar the football events that they were able to sell to the public was sold. The IOC have admitted that the empty seats were the responsibility of the individual national federations who did not sell nor return unsold tickets - until they were forced to during the games and then people queue outside the French, German, Czech offices to buy tickets often at marked up prices. The IOC have admitted it was their fault and are reviewing the process for Rio. Explain how this was London's fault. 2012 - London demanded meetings with the IOC to discuss the IOCs failings 1996 - The IOC demanded meetings with the Atlanta OGC to discuss Atlanta's failings Big difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nykfan845 Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Oh who cares? Bottom line is that the reception of the Atlanta Games aren't likely to affect a future USA bid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox334 Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Oh who cares? Bottom line is that the reception of the Atlanta Games aren't likely to affect a future USA bid. Indeed. It would affect a future Atlanta bid, but it will have zero affect on a future US bid. A credible US bid (i.e. without a NYC 2012-like stadium fiasco) from a well known US city (NYC, Chicago, San Fransisco, Dallas, et cetera) would be a very strong contender for 2024 (as long as NA doesn't get 2022). New York City, San Fransisco and Chicago would all be cities that I would love to see host the Olympics during my lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksheep Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 Indeed. It would affect a future Atlanta bid, but it will have zero affect on a future US bid. A credible US bid (i.e. without a NYC 2012-like stadium fiasco) from a well known US city (NYC, Chicago, San Fransisco, Dallas, et cetera) would be a very strong contender for 2024 (as long as NA doesn't get 2022). New York City, San Fransisco and Chicago would all be cities that I would love to see host the Olympics during my lifetime. North America aren't bidding for 2022 The perenial problem any US bid has outside of LA, is what to do with the stadium afterwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nykfan845 Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 The perenial problem any US bid has outside of LA, is what to do with the stadium afterwards That really isn't the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksheep Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 That really isn't the problem. How do you not think that the IOC desire to avoid White elephants after a games, and the need to build an 80,000+ main stadium which has to be used afterwards is not a problem? Who would occupy this stadium if built in NY? Chicago? San Francisco? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USA Gold Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 How do you not think that the IOC desire to avoid White elephants after a games, and the need to build an 80,000+ main stadium which has to be used afterwards is not a problem? Who would occupy this stadium if built in NY? Chicago? San Francisco? The stadium is indeed a problem for those three cities. The 49ers and Raiders most likely will share a new football stadium that will not be in San Francisco proper so that puts them out of the running. Unless an Olympic Stadium would become a new home for the Cubs baseball team, Chicago is going to have a tought time. And New York has new facilities for baseball, football, and soccer. The only cities that have even a shot for meeting the reuse criteria for a stadium would be Dallas (replace Cotton Bowl), and St. Louis (Edward Jones Dome), and Washington (replace FedEx Field althgough it's the largest stadium in the NFL). Minneapolis could possibly be thrown into the mix if the new football stadium was designed for retrofitting as a track stadium. But that is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoronto Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 A USA city can propose a 80,000 then par it down to a 20,000 seat mixed use facility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USA Gold Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 A USA city can propose a 80,000 then par it down to a 20,000 seat mixed use facility. How many cities have a use for a 20,000 mixed use facility in the USA? Unless a city is getting an MLS team, not many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PotatoChips Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 How many cities have a use for a 20,000 mixed use facility in the USA? Unless a city is getting an MLS team, not many. NYC is close to making a deal that will put a MLS stadium in Flushing Meadows Park close to the National Tennis Center and Citi field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoronto Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 How many cities have a use for a 20,000 mixed use facility in the USA? Unless a city is getting an MLS team, not many. IDK? Put it on a University Campus? MLS Expansion team? 20,000 is the bare minimum because reading the 2008 report the IOC did not look favourably at Toronto proposing the samething. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PotatoChips Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 IDK? Put it on a University Campus? MLS Expansion team? 20,000 is the bare minimum because reading the 2008 report the IOC did not look favourably at Toronto proposing the samething. Baseball stadiums can be converted into track and field. They would just need time to not make it look like crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis D Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 In SF they could use Kezar Stadium and downsize it later. And I'd better not see any more ignorant bigoted trash talk about Atlanta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PotatoChips Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 What American city do you think should host the olympics next? Should it be: Philadelphia: The birthplace of America New York City: The capital of the World Los Angeles: Already a 2 time host San Francisco: A favorite city of the IOC Dallas: Where everything is bigger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyroKinesis Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Of all those? LA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Indeed. It would affect a future Atlanta bid, but it will have zero affect on a future US bid. A credible US bid (i.e. without a NYC 2012-like stadium fiasco) from a well known US city (NYC, Chicago, San Fransisco, Dallas, et cetera) would be a very strong contender for 2024 (as long as NA doesn't get 2022). New York City, San Fransisco and Chicago would all be cities that I would love to see host the Olympics during my lifetime. Well, if this is the case, then Germany is definitely overdue to having an Olympic Games. Remember, the IOC does have a long memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord David Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Just a funny thing I saw on skyscrapercity.com http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=94290649&postcount=212 Just had to give my rebuttal and propose my Manhattan land reclamation idea, which would be far more logical (even if costly) then this guy's crazy proposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY20?? Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Just had to give my rebuttal and propose my Manhattan land reclamation idea, which would be far more logical (even if costly) then this guy's crazy proposal. Your idea is just as crazy and far, far more expensive, if I'm being honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord David Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 ^^ It might be expensive, but will leave a proper lasting legacy (and bring the main stadium back to Manhattan). My idea for a NYC 2024 plan: Manhattan venues: Olympic Stadium - Athletics/Ceremonies - NEW Olympic Beach Volleyball Center- Beach Volleyball - TEMPORARY Olympic Rowing/Canoeing course - Rowing/Canoeing - TEMPORARY Olympic Village - NEW Javits Convention Center - Main Media Center - EXISTING/NEW Javits Convention Center - Wrestling, Judo, Tae-Kwon Do, Weightlifting, Table Tennis, Badminton, Rythmic Gymnstics - EXISTING Madison Square Garden - Basketball Finals, Gymnastics - EXISTING Central Park - Triathlon - EXISTING 69th Regiment Armory - Fencing - EXISTING Bronx: 369th Regiment Armory - Boxing - EXISTING Baker Field at Columbia University - Field Hockey (the existing field hockey and soccer pitch will be temporarily removed to have a temporary secondary Field Hockey venue) - EXISTING/TEMPORARY Pelham Bay Shooting, Slalom and Pentathlon Center - Shooting, Modern Pentathlon, Canoe/Kayak Slalom - TEMPORARY Olympic BMX Center - BMX - TEMPORARY Olympic Velodrome - Cycling - NEW Split Rock Golf Course - Golf - EXISTING Queens: USTA Billie Jean King National Tennis Center - Tennis - EXISTING Olympic Aquatics Center - Swimming, Diving, Waterpolo -EXISTING/NEW Archery Stadium at the Unisphere - Archery - TEMPORARY Brooklyn: Barclays Center - Volleyball - EXISTING Breezy Point Marina - Sailing, Marathon Start - EXISTING Staten Island: Greenbelt Equestrian Center - Equestrian - TEMPORARY Fresh Kills Park - Mountain Biking - TEMPORARY Fort Wadsworth - Road Cycling - TEMPORARY New Jersey: Prudential Center - Handball - EXISTING New Meadowlands Stadium - Football Finals - EXISTING Louis Brown Athletic Center - Basketball Preliminaries - EXISTING Rutgers Stadium - Football Preliminaries - EXISTING Red Bull Arena - Rugby 7's - EXISTING Elsewhere in the US: Buffalo - Ralph Wilson Stadium - Football Preliminaries - EXISTING Washington DC - FedEx Field - Football Preliminaries - EXISTING Philadelphia - Lincoln Financial Field - Football Preliminaries - EXISTING Boston - Foxborough Stadium - Football Preliminaries - EXISTING What do you think? This plan is of course based on the idea of the IZOD center and Nassau Coliseum being non-existent by 2024. 20 Existing venues 3 New Venues 11 Temporary Venues 34 venues overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nykfan845 Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Why does the stadium have to be in Manhattan again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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