Gangwon Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Nagano was left with a debt after their 1998 Games. According to this website, it costs the city $15 million a year just to maintain the former Olympic venues and sites. Despite that, many Nagano residents say the Games were worth it. So I'm not worried about public support in Pyeongchang, because I think they will embrace the Games both during and afterwards. I too think the Winter Olympics are worth any cost Pyeongchang will have to cover afterwards. But no one wants to lose money if they don't have to. What was the reason for Nagano losing money, and is it something Pyeongchang can avoid? We know that Japan and Korea are not Switzerland and Austria when it comes to winter sports enthusiasm. Is post-Games debt just inevitable in the less non-traditional winter nations? Or did Nagano's loss have anything to do with the fact that it was Japan's 2nd Winter Olympics rather than their 1st, and therefore not as national? Did Sapporo 1972's legacy have any such loss? And did Sapporo's existing winter infrastructure mean that Nagano's infrastructure was bound to be less used? (Even though Nagano is closer to Tokyo and the rest of Japan's population than Sapporo is) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenadian Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 I don't know the full story, but from a one off, easy look, weren't there a lot of fancy new venues built especially for the Nagano Games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faster Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Low public support (they weren't a well attended games), corruption in the organizing committee and having to build everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gangwon Posted July 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 I don't know the full story, but from a one off, easy look, weren't there a lot of fancy new venues built especially for the Nagano Games? Maybe, but it wouldn't be any different for Pyeongchang, since all their existing and future venues will have been built with the Games in mind. It's a shame the Nagano venues weren't used more after the Games, but I'm hopeful this won't be the case in Pyeongchang. I hope Koreans will realize how lucky they are to have access to Korea's first set of proper winter sports infrastructure, and that they are uniquely positioned to take advantage of them afterwards. Breaking it down, the skating and alpine skiing/snowboarding venues are badly needed with or without the Games, to serve the public and future athletes. I'm confident that ski jumping and the sliding sports will flourish in Korea once interest is ignited by the Games, something a Winter Universiade couldn't do (1997 Muju). I'm less confident about the potential for continued interest in biathlon and cross-country skiing after the Games, but it's still nice to have one proper set of venues for those in the country. Hmm, Faster brought up a good point. To differentiate from Nagano, public support will be necessary to make Pyeongchang a success. Not just support during the Games, but afterwards too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gangwon Posted July 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Did some more digging, and saw that a lot of world championships held in Japan are still done in Sapporo rather than Nagano (like the FIS Nordic World Ski Champs), and that Japan's elite athletes still prefer to train in Sapporo. This shouldn't be a problem in Pyeongchang because PC would be THE premier training ground for Korean winter athletes. And Gardella of the FIBT (bobsleigh and skeleton) brought up a great point that once Pyeongchang has a track, the FIBT can finally arrange for some regular competitions in Asia by using both Nagano and Pyeongchang's tracks, something that couldn't be done when it was just Nagano. Maybe that partly suggests why Nagano's venues haven't been fully utilized... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Nagano was left with a debt after their 1998 Games. According to this website, it costs the city $15 million a year just to maintain the former Olympic venues and sites. Despite that, many Nagano residents say the Games were worth it. So I'm not worried about public support in Pyeongchang, because I think they will embrace the Games both during and afterwards. I too think the Winter Olympics are worth any cost Pyeongchang will have to cover afterwards. But no one wants to lose money if they don't have to. What was the reason for Nagano losing money, and is it something Pyeongchang can avoid? We know that Japan and Korea are not Switzerland and Austria when it comes to winter sports enthusiasm. Is post-Games debt just inevitable in the less non-traditional winter nations? Or did Nagano's loss have anything to do with the fact that it was Japan's 2nd Winter Olympics rather than their 1st, and therefore not as national? Did Sapporo 1972's legacy have any such loss? And did Sapporo's existing winter infrastructure mean that Nagano's infrastructure was bound to be less used? (Even though Nagano is closer to Tokyo and the rest of Japan's population than Sapporo is) I think u've opened up a Pandora's box here and I'm sure you wouldn't want to hear some of the answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcelona_'92 Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 One of the problems with the Nagano venues is that they are rarely used for competition. They have one of the best sliding tracks in the world, but the bobsled and luge World Cups almost never go to Japan because it's too expensive to ship all of the sleds there. Having a track in PyeongChang should actually help this problem--the sleds can be shipped to Asia for back-to-back World Cup events in Alpensia and Iizuna-Kogen. Being able to attract international sliding events will be key to the potential profitability of the sliding center. International skiing events rarely go to Asia either--it's just too expensive to transport all of the competitors and equipment when 90% of the best venues are in Europe. Again, I think both PyeongChang and Nagano can benefit from world-class venues in Korea--it's easier to have events in Asia when there is more than one location capable of hosting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Rols Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 One of the problems with the Nagano venues is that they are rarely used for competition. They have one of the best sliding tracks in the world, but the bobsled and luge World Cups almost never go to Japan because it's too expensive to ship all of the sleds there. Having a track in PyeongChang should actually help this problem--the sleds can be shipped to Asia for back-to-back World Cup events in Alpensia and Iizuna-Kogen. Being able to attract international sliding events will be key to the potential profitability of the sliding center. International skiing events rarely go to Asia either--it's just too expensive to transport all of the competitors and equipment when 90% of the best venues are in Europe. Again, I think both PyeongChang and Nagano can benefit from world-class venues in Korea--it's easier to have events in Asia when there is more than one location capable of hosting. Never thought of it that way, but great point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord David Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Should Almaty, Kazakhstan host, it could easily be Europe > Sochi > Almaty > PyeongChang > Nagano, then perhaps heading over to the US > Canada > Europe again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gangwon Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I think u've opened up a Pandora's box here and I'm sure you wouldn't want to hear some of the answers. Bring it on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citius Altius Fortius Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I think it is a "nice" project to create a new Winter Sport center in Asia, but I have doubts that Korea or Korea/Japan will become regular venues for the Winter Sports World Cup Circus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gangwon Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Should Almaty, Kazakhstan host, it could easily be Europe > Sochi > Almaty > PyeongChang > Nagano, then perhaps heading over to the US > Canada > Europe again. And just imagine if Harbin should ever host! See, Pyeongchang really is a Winter Games for Asia and not just Korea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citius Altius Fortius Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 You have to keep in mind that the world cup starts in october and lasts until march - it will become quite challenging to find a "free weekend" to include Kazakhstan, China, Korea and Japan in the World Cup Season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gangwon Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I think it is a "nice" project to create a new Winter Sport center in Asia, but I have doubts that Korea or Korea/Japan will become regular venues for the Winter Sports World Cup Circus. Until Whistler built their track, the North American part of the World Cup circuits included just Calgary, Park City and Lake Placid. Who knows if the FIBT come to Pyeongchang/Nagano every year, but they'll probably be included a lot more. As of now, the FIBT almost never includes Nagano alone as part of the circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citius Altius Fortius Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Until Whistler built their track, the North American part of the World Cup circuits included just Calgary, Park City and Lake Placid. Who knows if the FIBT come to Pyeongchang/Nagano every year, but they'll probably be included a lot more. As of now, the FIBT almost never includes Nagano alone as part of the circuit. I think that the Winter Sports Associations will include the Asian slopes or bobruns one or two or three times after the Pyeongchang games - when it isn't succesful enough it will be excluded again like it was after Sapporo or Nagano... It will become decisive it is able to make Winter Sports really popular in South Korea - not only for the times of the Olympic Games, but for much longer - let's take the Biathlon World Championships in 2009 - do you think that Biathlon became popular in Korea, because the World Championships were held there? Do you think that more Koreans will go to the Biathlon events during the Olympic Games in Pyeongchang due this World Championships two years (nine years)ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gangwon Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I think that the Winter Sports Associations will include the Asian slopes or bobruns one or two or three times after the Pyeongchang games - when it isn't succesful enough it will be excluded again like it was after Sapporo or Nagano... It will become decisive it is able to make Winter Sports really popular in South Korea - not only for the times of the Olympic Games, but for much longer - let's take the Biathlon World Championships in 2009 - do you think that Biathlon became popular in Korea, because the World Championships were held there? Do you think that more Koreans will go to the Biathlon events during the Olympic Games in Pyeongchang due this World Championships two years (nine years)ago? First off, no, I don't think biathlon will ever become popular in Korea. It doesn't have any roots in Korean culture, and it just doesn't seem like something Koreans would ever be interested in. 2018 might increase some awareness, but that's about it. But hey, biathlon is not popular in North America either, which is fine. Still, I think the 2009 World Championships was a valuable learning experience, because now the same mistakes won't be repeated in 2018. I think bobsleigh and skeleton has the potential to become popular in Korea, by it's very nature as a "fun" sliding sport. As of now, the sliding world powers are Canada, the US, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Italy, and it's no coincidence that the regular World Cup circuits are almost exclusively in those countries. The FIBT season can accomodate 8 weekends, plus the World Championships, leaving room for 9 venues to be used throughout the season. I still expect those above-mentioned 6 countries to host the bulk of the sliding competitions, but I can imagine that every 2nd or 3rd year, the circuit could include 3 venues in North America, 2 venues in Asia, and 4 in Europe (1 being the World Championships). In years without Asian tracks, the breakdown would continue to be 6 Europe/3 NA or 5 Europe/4 NA. I agree that bobsleigh and skeleton will have to become more popular in Korea for this to work, but at least now there's a chance for that to happen. And if the FIBT season really can't accomodate the Asian tracks, then it will just come to the point where Japan and Korea (and in the future China) will have to create their own competitions. The important thing is that the tracks are still being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gangwon Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Athletes' dreams, visions in Pyeongchang This is hilarious! This article came out 3 hours ago, and it's almost as if it was written to answer our questions here. It talks about the future of winter sports in Pyeongchang, the use of the sledding venues, and the differences with Nagano. This is the second time this deja vu has happened, the first being when we discussed the impact of Yuna Kim on PC's win. Maybe they're all reading Gamesbids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citius Altius Fortius Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 First off, no, I don't think biathlon will ever become popular in Korea. It doesn't have any roots in Korean culture, and it just doesn't seem like something Koreans would ever be interested in. 2018 might increase some awareness, but that's about it. But hey, biathlon is not popular in North America either, which is fine. Still, I think the 2009 World Championships was a valuable learning experience, because now the same mistakes won't be repeated in 2018. I think bobsleigh and skeleton has the potential to become popular in Korea, by it's very nature as a "fun" sliding sport. As of now, the sliding world powers are Canada, the US, Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Italy, and it's no coincidence that the regular World Cup circuits are almost exclusively in those countries. The FIBT season can accomodate 8 weekends, plus the World Championships, leaving room for 9 venues to be used throughout the season. I still expect those above-mentioned 6 countries to host the bulk of the sliding competitions, but I can imagine that every 2nd or 3rd year, the circuit could include 3 venues in North America, 2 venues in Asia, and 4 in Europe (1 being the World Championships). In years without Asian tracks, the breakdown would continue to be 6 Europe/3 NA or 5 Europe/4 NA. I agree that bobsleigh and skeleton will have to become more popular in Korea for this to work, but at least now there's a chance for that to happen. And if the FIBT season really can't accomodate the Asian tracks, then it will just come to the point where Japan and Korea (and in the future China) will have to create their own competitions. The important thing is that the tracks are still being used. Yes, I agree with you that the Olympic Games will "create" the chance that Winter Sports become more popular in Korea - what I find interesting is that it seems that you "know" that there will be Winter sports which have a chance to become popular in Korea and others not - which Winter sports have a chance to become popular in Korea in your point of view and why? Which Winter Sports don't have a chance to become popular in Korea in your point of view and why? What are the difference between these Winter Sports? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gangwon Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Yes, I agree with you that the Olympic Games will "create" the chance that Winter Sports become more popular in Korea - what I find interesting is that it seems that you "know" that there will be Winter sports which have a chance to become popular in Korea and others not - which Winter sports have a chance to become popular in Korea in your point of view and why? Which Winter Sports don't have a chance to become popular in Korea in your point of view and why? What are the difference between these Winter Sports? I don't know, I can't predict the future. I'm only making my own predictions. China excels in curling and Japan in ski jumping (or they once did), so I can see Koreans taking that up and being quite good at that if they invested time and money. Bobsledding seems like a fun sport that many countries would be interested in if they actually had a track to use for training and competitions. Unfortunately, it's hard to build and maintain a track, and with the exception of Germany, most other countries only have a track if they've recently hosted a Winter Games. Now Korea gets that chance. Biathlon was a flop in 2009, and based on the pattern that the Winter Olympics in North America and Japan haven't increased the popularity of that sport in Canada, the US and Japan, I'm putting that altogether to predict that Korea won't be interested in biathlon after the WOG either. I really don't know, and I won't claim to know. Whatever does happen, I'm excited for this opportunity. One of the nice things about this chance to expand winter sports in Korea is that now they won't have to rely on short track to get medals in the WOGs, and won't have to overreact every time a judging decision doesn't go their way in that sport. Hopefully, figure skating gold has made some realize that short track isn't the be-all-end-all of winter sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citius Altius Fortius Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 What me wonders are there traditional Winter Sports in Korea (I mean which have roots in the Korean culture)? Of course I am aware that it isn't e.g. luge or biathlon, but maybe there are winter sports, which are completely unknown in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gangwon Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 What me wonders are there traditional Winter Sports in Korea (I mean which have roots in the Korean culture)? Of course I am aware that it isn't e.g. luge or biathlon, but maybe there are winter sports, which are completely unknown in Europe. I'm not sure about any traditional winter sports. Various forms of martial arts have been practiced in Korea throughout the centuries, but winter sports? My grandfather did ice skate along the frozen Han River in the 1950's (the river cutting through Seoul, much like the Thames or the Seine), but that's as far as I know. You should ask someone living in Korea. Where's "nature" when you need him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olympian2004 Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Well, I guess one can say that short track speed skating has become a very Korean winter sport. It has not a long Olympic history, but that history is closely linked to Korea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gangwon Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Well, I guess one can say that short track speed skating has become a very Korean winter sport. It has not a long Olympic history, but that history is closely linked to Korea. True. Pyeongchang never would have gotten 2018 without Korea's history in short track, and short track has been Korea's contribution to the WOGs, disputes and all. But really, Koreans need to react better to judging disputes, even if it is just a minority of Koreans. I hope 2018 will help them realize that keeping your cool, maintaining friendships and being a gracious host is more important than 1 or 2 disputed gold medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Interesting that this topic is here. Back then in 1991, when Nagano won the bid for the 1998 Winter Olympics, Japan promised and built a "short" Shinkansen line to the city in time for those Games. Now, I have read an article that South Korea wanted to do the same, in time for the 2018 Winter Olympics, but the idea was scrapped in the end because, just like what happened with Nagano, the cost was too steep. Click here for the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stark Posted January 6, 2012 Report Share Posted January 6, 2012 Intesting, very similar both cases, and also i think the games will be very alike, good but with lack of "winter spirit" something like Torino too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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