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Raising question about Madrid's financial capability at staging the Games makes perfect sense and this will probably be the main task of the Evaluation Commission. I have no doubt that comes 2013, should there be a significant risk with respect to Madrid 2020, there will be still time to stop the bid.

Comparing Rome's situation with Madrid is a proof of ignorance/misunderstanding or (more likely given Baron's spectacular record in the field) bad faith: Madrid has very limited investments to make compared to Rome where heavy investments were planned (in particular for transport).

Oh baloney. Blow it out your ear!

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In the 2020's, when economies have recovered and Europe starts to stabilise (I hope), I think Rome's withdrawal could actually be reflected upon as a positive thing, if it steps up when the economy is

Well, Athan has just said it's quicker than that with High Speed Rail. Besides which, Sailing is always going to be out on a limb unless a coastal city is hosting the Games, that's just the way it is

this thread is bloody boring

In my country, international news headlines in the last 1 week covered with crisis in Spain, today headline about how ten of thousands shop will be closed because of this crisis, how the tax keep increasing, while the sales is keep decreasing.... It's highlighted a shop called 'Lemon Tree' in the centre of Madrid, how they struggling with this crisis, how the owner try to sell the shop and the his house too....

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Whereas the Madrilenos are a stubborn, delusional lot--riding on this pipe dream that an Olympic Games will fix their overall malaise. Methinks that Castilian sun doth burn too much.

Oh shut up, that's so not called for.

I was doing some thinking about IOC voting politics, and I feel that voting Madrid is the best thing that every IOC voter from outside of Europe with a horse in the 2024 race could do for their own chances. A Madrid Olympics would boost the chances of N. America, Africa, and Asia by getting the european cities out of the next race. Any possible South African bid gets a boost because Istanbul wouldn't have won and taken the "frontier" games role for the second olympics in a row. If any Asian countries are thinking of bidding (I can't think of any to be honest, maybe Australia could fall into this category) not having Tokyo win increases their chances too.

I feel this is important because if Madrid doesn't win, everyone knows Europe will be coming hard for 2024, and voting Madrid takes away that threat. Anyway, that's just how I see it, let me know what you guys think, I know that some of you are much better analysts of these kinds of things and I could have overlooked something important. BTW currently watching the boat parade down the Thames for the Queen's Jubilee celebrations on BBC, it's really an impressive site, makes me wish I could be in London!

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I used to agree with you, but as some have pointed out, Istanbul is a more strategic vote than Madrid.

Voting for Istanbul mitigates both the chances of Europe and Asia while also decreasing the likelihood of a third new frontier Summer Games in a row (Africa).

As I've said, I like Madrid a lot. I would be more likely to attend Madrid's Games than I would Tokyo or Istanbul. I just think the Spanish economy has created a virtually insurmountable PR problem. That is true whether or not the economy is really bad enough to damage the financial underpinnings of the bid. It LOOKS bad, and in Olympic bids that's what counts.

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Oh shut up, that's so not called for.

I was doing some thinking about IOC voting politics, and I feel that voting Madrid is the best thing that every IOC voter from outside of Europe with a horse in the 2024 race could do for their own chances. A Madrid Olympics would boost the chances of N. America, Africa, and Asia by getting the european cities out of the next race. Any possible South African bid gets a boost because Istanbul wouldn't have won and taken the "frontier" games role for the second olympics in a row. If any Asian countries are thinking of bidding (I can't think of any to be honest, maybe Australia could fall into this category) not having Tokyo win increases their chances too.

I feel this is important because if Madrid doesn't win, everyone knows Europe will be coming hard for 2024, and voting Madrid takes away that threat. Anyway, that's just how I see it, let me know what you guys think, I know that some of you are much better analysts of these kinds of things and I could have overlooked something important. BTW currently watching the boat parade down the Thames for the Queen's Jubilee celebrations on BBC, it's really an impressive site, makes me wish I could be in London!

Calla te!! Por eso Madrid va perdir -- muy arrogante y terco! :P

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I don't think an Istanbul vote takes away Europe's chances for 2024 at all. It's not exactly seen as a European city compared to Paris, Berlin or Rome. I also don't think it's seen as an Asian city, despite its efforts to be thought of as " straddling two continents". But the fact that it would decrease the likelihood of another frontier games is all the more reason why IOC representatives from possible frontier cities would not want to vote for it.

Y para ti Shrek. Este foro es para hablar de las candidaturas de una manera respetuosa y no insultante. Madrid tiene tanto derecho de estar en la carrera como Tokio o Istambul, y tachando a los madrileños de "stubborn" y "delusional" por apoyar la candidatura, y a mi de arrogante por defenderla ante tu ataque es a la vez fuera de lugar y bastante maleducado por tu parte. Have fun translating that :)

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I don't think an Istanbul vote takes away Europe's chances for 2024 at all. It's not exactly seen as a European city compared to Paris, Berlin or Rome. I also don't think it's seen as an Asian city, despite its efforts to be thought of as " straddling two continents". But the fact that it would decrease the likelihood of another frontier games is all the more reason why IOC representatives from possible frontier cities would not want to vote for it.

Y para ti Shrek. Este foro es para hablar de las candidaturas de una manera respetuosa y no insultante. Madrid tiene tanto derecho de estar en la carrera como Tokio o Istambul, y tachando a los madrileños de "stubborn" y "delusional" por apoyar la candidatura, y a mi de arrogante por defenderla ante tu ataque es a la vez fuera de lugar y bastante maleducado por tu parte. Have fun translating that :)

Oh I can understand that. I am tri-lingual. :P Sorry that u feel attacked, but we kinda tell it like it is here insofar as the chances of bidding cities. It is basically cities bidding-so it should be impersonal. And yes, people do get passionate in their support; but it's just being frank. We call it as we see it; if the language is a little strong, well I am sure other columnists and analysts around the world have also called it so. So, it wouldn't be the first time. ;) Don't take it too personally. Develop a little objectivity.

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The reason why i think Madrid (and Istanbul) won't win is because i know IOC too much not to think some people there are already getting horny at the idea of having a Paris-Rome-Madrid-Some German city & Istanbul and maybe (depending on 2022 ) a US one.

I know most of you will disagree with me (and i hope to be very wrong myself) but i do see IOC as an ogre already slavering at the idea of having another race like 2012 for 2024 and they just know it won't happen if Madrid wins.

But despite this being a bad choice for my olympic dream in a french city, i really wish the best to Madrid would be awesome games (but so would be Istanbul & Tokyo)

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I don't think an Istanbul vote takes away Europe's chances for 2024 at all. It's not exactly seen as a European city compared to Paris, Berlin or Rome. I also don't think it's seen as an Asian city, despite its efforts to be thought of as " straddling two continents". But the fact that it would decrease the likelihood of another frontier games is all the more reason why IOC representatives from possible frontier cities would not want to vote for it.

Y para ti Shrek. Este foro es para hablar de las candidaturas de una manera respetuosa y no insultante. Madrid tiene tanto derecho de estar en la carrera como Tokio o Istambul, y tachando a los madrileños de "stubborn" y "delusional" por apoyar la candidatura, y a mi de arrogante por defenderla ante tu ataque es a la vez fuera de lugar y bastante maleducado por tu parte. Have fun translating that :)

I've actually made that exact same argument myself regarding Istanbul. However, I've since been persuaded that at least from an American perspective (which really doesn't say much about the IOC as a whole), an Istanbul victory would be most advantageous to a US bid for 2024.

There aren't all that many new frontiers left that are likely to host soon, therefore I don't see Istanbul suffering much from that.

I understand you really want to win and I don't want to crush you, but honestly, the prognosis isn't good. I can see Madrid coming second again, but I would be very surprised if they did any better than that.

Just FYI, Shrek's surname is Garcia....

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I just think the Spanish economy has created a virtually insurmountable PR problem. That is true whether or not the economy is really bad enough to damage the financial underpinnings of the bid. It LOOKS bad, and in Olympic bids that's what counts.

It's only bad PR if you belive that hosting the Olympics is bad for the economy. There are those that believe that having coca-cola and NBC spend $1billion on infrastructure would be good for Spain's economy.

Now there is no easy answer as to whether hosting is ultimately good or bad for an economy. But the important question is whether the IOC members think it

is good or bad. And I suspect they think it's good.

Do you really think the IOC is going to say, "We didn't give the Olympics to Spain because we didn't want to harm their economy?"

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Do you really think the IOC is going to say, "We didn't give the Olympics to Spain because we didn't want to harm their economy?"

The IOC never have to give an excuse why they DIDN'T award a city a games - there's always going to be losing bids. They just have to pick the one they want to go to.

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It's only bad PR if you belive that hosting the Olympics is bad for the economy. There are those that believe that having coca-cola and NBC spend $1billion on infrastructure would be good for Spain's economy.

Now there is no easy answer as to whether hosting is ultimately good or bad for an economy. But the important question is whether the IOC members think it

is good or bad. And I suspect they think it's good.

Do you really think the IOC is going to say, "We didn't give the Olympics to Spain because we didn't want to harm their economy?"

No, the IOC will sidestep Spain without offering a word of explanation. The reality is the Olympics are already viewed by many as a colossal waste, a luxury exclusively for the very rich and a gluttonous event that lacks social conscience or any sense of responsibility. The IOC isn't going to want to make themselves any more vulnerable to those accusations. They will be able to see Madrid as a pitfall that must be avoided.

As for economic benefit, no one has successfully demonstrated in a quantitative way how the Games have benefitted a host city or nation. Everyone talks about it, but there really is no evidence of it. Economic benefits are touted in the campaigning phase as a way to drum up public support, but there's really no evidence to suggest such benefits actually exist.

The Olympics are a boost and a country's image and national pride. They are an excuse to execute various infrastructure improvements that would probably have gotten done eventually anyway. They are not a way of turning around a floundering economy.

In the case of Madrid, one of their big selling points is that almost everything is already in place, so very little expenditure is required. If this is true, where will the job creation come from? What is it that is going to be such a financial help to Spain? It doesn't add up.

Spain loves the Olympics and that's wonderful. They want to host because they remember Barcelona and now they want their crown jewel to have the same honor. That's understandable. It's not about the Spaniards really believing the Games will help their economy.

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Even without Spains economic issues, their bid was up sh!t's creek without a paddle anyway. With the Barcelona effect still a bit too close, & JAS no longer in the picture to drum up support for them, it was very much a tough sell already.

Plus, the legacy aspect of Madrid is pretty fuzzy. With 75% of all the venues already in place, where is the IOC going to say; "ooooo N aahhhhh"! I think Madrid was just a safety net in case the other 2 bids fumbled, but now has merely turned into a big question mark. Tokyo & Istanbul at this point, would really have to fu@k up royally in order for Madrid to end up with the 2020 Games.

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You're so eloquent FYI... I almost want Madrid to win just to see you eat your words. Fact is Madrid has a solid plan; the only negatives, and granted they're big, are the economy and the pull of Tokyo and Istanbul's candidacies. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

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I don't think Madrid will win, but I don't think the loss of JAS hurt them much. Yes, he was a very iimportant figure, but no one will forget him or his 2016 plea. He will be forever associated with Madrid's bids and his memory alone commands respect. I think Spain is very well positioned and connected in the IOC even without JAS. The glowing working group report looks like evidence of that to me.

Losing JAS wasn't going to sink the bid. I don't even know that Barcelona has to be a killer, though it certainly is a hurdle. It's the economic perception and ensuing PR mess that's going to get them.

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The reality is the Olympics are already viewed by many as a colossal waste, a luxury exclusively for the very rich and a gluttonous event that lacks social conscience or any sense of responsibility.

The issues isn't whether or not "many" people view the Olympics that way. It's whether the IOC members do. And I'm pretty sure they don't.

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The issues isn't whether or not "many" people view the Olympics that way. It's whether the IOC members do. And I'm pretty sure they don't.

They (and most of us) don't, but I'm sure they're sensitive to how the wider public view them.

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I don't want to sound like a pessimistic person, but as much as I would really like Madrid to host the olympics, this is not the moment. Why they waste money and time when they have bigger problems (and the crisis was confirmed to light for at least three years more) to solve? I don't trust them at all when they say it will be privately funded.

The IOC would look irresponsable giving the games to a country on this situation, even more after whats happening in Greece. I really doubt its the message they want to give (besides they already adventured last time giving the games to Rio so they will most likely choose a more stable and experienced host this time)

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The issues isn't whether or not "many" people view the Olympics that way. It's whether the IOC members do. And I'm pretty sure they don't.

No. The IOC cares how the rest if the world perceives them -- as well they should. The brand depends on it. Therefore the IOC is not going to make a decision that invites scathing criticism from the global media.

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. Why they waste money and time when they have bigger problems
Spain's bigger problem is that too many people are out of work! Putting people to work building things, improving infrastructure, etc. isn't a waste of money, it's exactly what Spain should be doing. And if you can get McDonalds and NBC to foot the bill for most of that work.... it's the best thing ever.
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Spain's bigger problem is that too many people are out of work! Putting people to work building things, improving infrastructure, etc. isn't a waste of money, it's exactly what Spain should be doing. And if you can get McDonalds and NBC to foot the bill for most of that work.... it's the best thing ever.

Your argument makes NO sense whatsoever. :rolleyes: Did you even read and comprehend the previous posts?

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