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^Which would be all the more reason for Madrid NOT to do it. Since they're just mainly out to outdo Barcelona. They'd probably want to do something different & more original.

And OTO, I wouldn't necessarily say that a country HAS to cover every different aspect of their culture in an Opening Ceremonies. Did Atlanta's or Salt Lake's cover all parts of the U.S.? Not really. And I don't think that Beijing did either. And Sochi probably won't as well. It just depends on what the host country wants to focus on the most.

Well the U.S. isn't a good example. We're huge and have many more different regions. That's why Atlanta concentrated on the South (and were so redneck with those goddam tacky ass pick up trucks).

The United States is to the European Union what a U.S. state is to an EU member state, you know?

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And OTO, I wouldn't necessarily say that a country HAS to cover every different aspect of their culture in an Opening Ceremonies. Did Atlanta's or Salt Lake's cover all parts of the U.S.? Not really. And I don't think that Beijing did either. And Sochi probably won't as well. It just depends on what the host country wants to focus on the most.

The politics of this are thorny. Olympic Games can be and often are seen as representing entire nations, despite vast regional differences. A good chunk of Canada had to be and was represented by the performances during the Vancouver OC, and even then, there were loud complains that the ceremonies shortchanged Quebecois culture and the French language in general.

There was less official hand-wringing over Atlanta but many Americans were upset that the tacky Confederate pickup truck extravaganza didn't represent the country as a whole very well on the world stage.

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There was less official hand-wringing over Atlanta but many Americans were upset that the tacky Confederate pickup truck extravaganza didn't represent the country as a whole very well on the world stage.

It was clearly explained in the narration that the pick-up trucks were a part of a young person's Saturday night social in the South. How different is that from the flowers & birds in the Las Ramblas section of Barcelona's show? It depicts something local; and if people don't like it, tough sh*t!! The IOC thought it was acceptable (they DO vet every show's content more than a year before the Games), so it should be good enough for the yahoos seeing the show for free no less.

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Meeting the IOC's minimum quality threshold and being representative in a way that satisfies a wide constituency of people who are supposedly being represented by a games are two different things.

I don't think Americans minded the fact that there was a regional focus so much as the fact that it wasn't even very flattering with regard to the region it purported to represent.

Also, to the extent that country-level taxes foot the bill for part of nearly every Olympics, domestic viewers are not just passive viewers who get to watch an OC for free. They have invested in the symbolism of having a games in their backyard for a reason.

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Atlanta is a bad example of what to show during an Opening Ceremony. Forget just the size and scope of the United States and that it allowed Atlanta to focus on their region of the U.S. as opposed to Canada which pretty much tried to be overly-PC to all regions of Canada. Atlanta came just 12 years after Los Angeles. What exactly did we all expect Atlanta to show us that the rest of the world hadn't already seen just over a decade earlier. Clearly they needed to do at least something different.

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Also, to the extent that country-level taxes foot the bill for part of nearly every Olympics, domestic viewers are not just passive viewers who get to watch an OC for free.

Uhmmm...the US Games are (except for Security costs) financed for the most part, privately. As Quaker2001 says below, indeed after LA 1984, what else was Atlanta going to show that was not going to be repetitive of LA? (As a matter of fact, the Atlanta Closing was already a repeat of the LA 1984 Opening - the Music that America Gave the World (and which was also used in the 1993 World University Games opening in Buffalo (produced by Dick Clark Productions); and very much the Closing for Salt Lake as well.

Atlanta is a bad example of what to show during an Opening Ceremony. Forget just the size and scope of the United States and that it allowed Atlanta to focus on their region of the U.S. as opposed to Canada which pretty much tried to be overly-PC to all regions of Canada. Atlanta came just 12 years after Los Angeles. What exactly did we all expect Atlanta to show us that the rest of the world hadn't already seen just over a decade earlier. Clearly they needed to do at least something different.

Further, it was ACOG's desire to show in its Ceremonies: the vibrancy of the South and its youth; and at least for the Opening, honor the Greek roots of the while affair. They won the Games; I'd at least grant them that prerogative. You can't please all the people all the time!

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Uhmmm...the US Games are (except for Security costs) financed for the most part, privately. As Quaker2001 says below, indeed after LA 1984, what else was Atlanta going to show that was not going to be repetitive of LA? (As a matter of fact, the Atlanta Closing was already a repeat of the LA 1984 Opening - the Music that America Gave the World (and which was also used in the 1993 World University Games opening in Buffalo (produced by Dick Clark Productions); and very much the Closing for Salt Lake as well.

Don't you think I know that? I was thinking, for one, about security costs. But there's a less direct tax on other resources used by people in-country, like transport and consular services, etc. - and symbolic value which has an impact for perceptions of nationals abroad, etc. It's hard to say that citizens of a host nation aren't invested in the games in a way that should give them some theoretical bases on which to claim nonrepresentation.

Further, it was ACOG's desire to show in its Ceremonies: the vibrancy of the South and its youth; and at least for the Opening, honor the Greek roots of the while affair. They won the Games; I'd at least grant them that prerogative. You can't please all the people all the time!

It was precisely the fact that Atlanta showed a cheesy stereotype of the south, rather than its "vibrancy," that people were upset about.

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As a foreigner I think Flamenco=Spain, not Flamenco=only a certain part of Spain, you know? And they'd be showcasing all of Spain to the world (or at least, that's what they should be doing).

Well the U.S. isn't a good example. We're huge and have many more different regions. That's why Atlanta concentrated on the South (and were so redneck with those goddam tacky ass pick up trucks).

The United States is to the European Union what a U.S. state is to an EU member state, you know?

Only an American would say that! :lol:

I think Quaker2001's point is more on the money. The US has, in recent decades, hosted relatively frequently, so it's allowed them to put more regional interest in the ceremonies to distinguish from previous ones.

Most EU Countries will host a lot less frequently so use the opportunity to show off the whole country, either by ignoring regional differences altogether or jamming in as many of them as they can so as to treat everyone equally.

I think you see the other side of the coin with the CWGs. Countries like Australia and the nations of the UK host so frequently the ceremonies are much more regional in their focus. Whilst a Sydney or London Olympic ceremony might focus on the whole nation, a Manchester or Melbourne CWGs ceremony would have a much more local feel, because they can, because they know another one may only be a decade or so away.

So, whether Madrid will be "showcasing all of Spain to the world" or not is really up to them, and the fact you think they "should" is really only down to convention and expectation. Just as Atlanta had a local flavour to it 12 years after LA, and Salt Lake did after that, so Madrid may decide to have a more regional focus after Barcelona. That'd be entirely their choice.

I actually doubt this will be the case simply because of politics in Spain and what Madrid as a city and a capital represents, but nevertheless, they could go down this path.

This question would actually be MUCH more interesting if it were Madrid who hosted in '92 and Barcelona who was bidding now, but nevermind. :D

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It's hard to say that citizens of a host nation aren't invested in the games in a way that should give them some theoretical bases on which to claim nonrepresentation.

Except that not everyone is going to be polled about what they want to see. In fact, Don Mischer productions did conduct nearly 2 years' research with many sectors of society on what would be a 'Southern representation,' -- good or bad in other people's eyes. Again, as I said, you can't please everybody all the time; and ultimately, the producers who are designated to produce the show, have the final creative input. That's what they were hired for.

I guess that's like my NOT being impressed with Athens 2004's show as a whole. It had great, magnificent moments -- but it did hold together as one piece. To me (and as I say in the book, some of) its parts were greater than its whole.

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It was clearly explained in the narration that the pick-up trucks were a part of a young person's Saturday night social in the South.

Yes clearly showing what a redneck hick ***** ***** place the south is.

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Only an American would say that! :lol:

Which part? Flamenco=Spain or that the U.S./E.U comment?

To me Flamenco is Spanish, just like people think cowboys are American. Is Flamenco not Spanish?

And yeah E.U. isn't exactly the same, but what I mean was you have a big REGION (Unites States/European Union), made up of smaller member "states", each one with different regional cultural differences. That's all I mean. I don't give a rip about all the technicalities involving government, laws, regulations etc. You have one currency that makes it easier for a tourist to travel around the place. That's as far as it goes with me.

And you guys? Hell, you won't even join the thing completely.

So, whether Madrid will be "showcasing all of Spain to the world" or not is really up to them, and the fact you think they "should" is really only down to convention and expectation.

No ****, Sherlock.

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Which part? Flamenco=Spain or that the U.S./E.U comment?

The EU/US comment. :)

You said:

"Well the U.S. isn't a good example. We're huge and have many more different regions. That's why Atlanta concentrated on the South (and were so redneck with those goddam tacky ass pick up trucks)."

I'd disagree that the US isn't a good example, and I'd disagree that some apparant greater diversity is the reason the US goes for local flavour over a national celebration.

As I said, I think the real reason why European Countries focus on national identity in their ceremonies is because they dont' host individually as often as the US does. If an individual European country had three Olympics in less than 20 years, I'm sure we'd see more local flavour in the ceremonies, but that just doesn't happen.


And yeah E.U. isn't exactly the same, but what I mean was you have a big REGION (Unites States/European Union), made up of smaller member "states", each one with different regional cultural differences.

Sure, in the broadest sense possible the two are comparable; in terms of population and land area. But I don't really think you're comparing like with like. The US isn't a continent and France, for example, isn't just a "state".

I just find it intriguing that some people don't bat an eyelid when the US, as a country, uses only one region in a ceremony, but on the other hand think Spain ought to use the ceremony to showcase the whole country. It's a perfectly valid personal opinion of what you'd like to see in different ceremonies, but there is an inoncistency in it, that's all.

To me Flamenco is Spanish, just like people think cowboys are American. Is Flamenco not Spanish?

That's rather the point isn't it? If, and I don't know, Flamenco has a very strong regional identity within Spain, perhaps having it in a particular city's ceremony would irk Spaniards as much as having Coyboys in a New York Olympics would perhaps irk Americans.

I don't want to dwell on this point, particularly as I'm pretty sure Madrid would go for a national celebration being the capital of Spain, a country which has a slightly delicate sense of itself particularly in the outer regions, but I just smiled when I read that you view the US and the EU as analogous.

Edited by RobH

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Well, "flamenco" isn't really indigeneously Spanish or Castillian. It's adapted from the "gypsies;" and, unless I get corrected here by the Spaniards -- it has its origins in Andalusia.

The jotas (court dances) are more Spanish but they are NOT as widely known.

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Go Madrid

I´m from Madrid and I´m not objective but I think we have a lot of traditions, culture elements, sounds, images, illusions, emotions, dreams to offer to all the olympic family.

Our sporting complex are builded in an 80% for our illusion in the last two bids. Now we needn´t a big economical inversions, the economical crisis is not a problem.

I hope this time will be our time. Go Madrid.

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Spain is a multicultural nation with diferents traitions in each region of our country. In our history we were conquered for diferents cultures, romans, fenicians, cartago, germans, arabs, frenchs, and all of this influence in our traditions in differents ways in each region.

Flamenco is origins in Andalusia, but its roots is in a mixed of gypsy and arab cultures.

The jotas is other of the Spanish traditional dance, like the sardana in Catalonia.

In Madrid the traditional dance is the Chotis and its roots are in a Scottish dance.

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In Madrid the traditional dance is the Chotis and its roots are in a Scottish dance.

Or, as when danced at Victorian balls that I attend, the schottishe.

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Well, "flamenco" isn't really indigeneously Spanish or Castillian. It's adapted from the "gypsies;" and, unless I get corrected here by the Spaniards -- it has its origins in Andalusia.

This is what I had said already earlier in the thread. And how this whole discussion on Flamenco got started. Flamenco also has Moorish influences. And is part of the reason why I don't view it as totally "Spanish". Especially when Andalusia was ruled by the Moors for centuries. It was totally different from Castile.

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This is what I had said already earlier in the thread. And how this whole discussion on Flamenco got started. Flamenco also has Moorish influences. And is part of the reason why I don't view it as totally "Spanish". Especially when Andalusia was ruled by the Moors for centuries. It was totally different from Castile.

Sorry for repeating it. I skipped parts of the thread where OTO was involved.

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Anyone know where Madrid's furthest venue will be?

In the city of Madrid, it would be the canoe sprint/rowing/open water swimming or the shooting venue. It's one of them, but I'm not sure which exactly. Anyway, both of them are no more than 20-25 minutes from the city centre using public transport. Out of Madrid, it would probably be one of the Andalusian football venues. Baron, sailing would be in Valencia or in Palma (Majorca), not in Cádiz. At least this is how it was for 2012 and 2016.

As for the ceremony, Flamenco in Spain is usually seen as Andalusian folklore. People in the North(west) of Spain usually prefer other traditional music (like, for example, Galician bagpipes). I think both of them could be included in the ceremony. Jotas are typically Aragonese, although some other regions also have their own jotas or similar dances. Unlike flamenco and bagpipes, I personally don't see jotas fitting the opening ceremony.

However, I think I'd enjoy much more an opening ceremony featuring the history of Spain. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I haven't watched it, but I think Barcelona's wasn't about history. It wouldn't be the first ceremony based on history but the Spanish history has many things to offer. From the first peoples in the Iberian Peninsula (Greeks, Phoenicians, Celts, Iberians...) to the Roman Empire, Al-Andalus, the discovery of America, the Spanish Golden Age (Don Quixote, Las Meninas...), the Habsburg and the Bourbon Dynasties —focusing more on the city of Madrid— and ending with the contemporary age (Picasso, Miró...) and the future.

Then, my ideal mascot for the Games would be an Iberian lynx for two main reasons: 1) sadly, it's an endangered species but it's an animal that can only be found in Spain (although it's been reintroduced in Portugal); 2) Madrid citizens are usually called gatos (cats), and a lynx is not a cat, but it's also a feline.

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Baron, sailing would be in Valencia or in Palma (Majorca), not in Cádiz. At least this is how it was for 2012 and 2016.

Yes, I stand corrected. It was the one used for the America's Cup race since the berths are already there.

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Yes, I stand corrected. It was the one used for the America's Cup race since the berths are already there.

Still its three hours away it might be a weak link for the bid.

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Still its three hours away it might be a weak link for the bid.

Discussing any strengths/weaknesses of the declared bids will be moot if Durban steps in. So I would suspend any qualitative assessments until Sept 1 when we know the complete cast.

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