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London Olympic Stadium


Brekkie Boy

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Possibly the biggest problem in the London bid - the Olympic Stadium itself.

A new stadium is required to be large enough to cope with Athletics and the Opening Ceremonies, but what would it's long term use be?

With Wembley for Football and Twickenham for Rugby Union, it is unlikely to become a National Stadium.  The new Wembley could reluctantly be converted for Athletics, with capacity reduced to around 67,000.  This is below the IOC limit of 75,000 - but the Athens stadium only holds 72,000.

Another possibility is converting it into a football ground - but Arsenal have their own plans and I don't see Chelsea moving, while the other London clubs aren't really of sufficient size to play in an Olympic Stadium, which would be located in the East End as part of the Olympic Park, even if capacity was reduced after the games.

A long-shot is to convert it to a cricket ground - but with Lords and Oval already there, it's unlikely.

Also, are host cities permitted to hold the Opening / Closing ceremonies away from the athletics venue.

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Stadiums will be subsidised...

Mayor Ken Livingstone has promised to use his budget to subsidise the operation of the sporting venues to be built if London wins its bid, to prevent them becoming "white elephants".

He will pay to keep the venues - which will include a new athletics stadium, velodrome, swimming centre and gymnastics facility - in use after the Games are over...

The move is designed to guarantee they do not become a second generation of Millennium Domes...

It is expected to cost up to £10million a year to keep the stadiums and other venues open, the Mayor's officials said.

Mr Livingstone said the funding was essential to make sure the venues could be used to bid for other sporting events in the future and continue to be used by local communities. "It would be an absolute scandal if we created these things and then saw them dismantled and not used," he said...

It ends speculation that the Olympic stadium could be sold to a Premiership football club in a deal similar to the one which saw a stadium built in Manchester for the Commonwealth Games in 2002, then handed over to Manchester City.

Plans for venues after olympics

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I still feel that as a fan of West Ham United, that if West Ham manage ti get back into the premiership then they most certainly have the fan base for sizeable crowds.

When they are in the premiership they regularly hit capacity at Upton Park and tickets are always very difficult to get hold of. The capacity of Upton Park is just short of 40,000 and I think they could come close to 50,000 so this is a strong possibility for a future tennant of the Olympic stadium.

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Brekkie Boy asked:

Also, are host cities permitted to hold the Opening / Closing ceremonies away from the athletics venue.  

Probably not a good idea.  When New York had a light-hearted run in 1977 at trying to take the bid away from LA, their idea of an O.C was marching the nations down Broadway.  2 years ago, Washington, DC, in its bid, conceived having the OC in the Mall.  Unless you hold it in a secured environment, I think it would be sending a message to trouble-makers (read: terrorists) the way you would wave a red flag at a bull.  In short, NOT SAFE.

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I still feel that as a fan of West Ham United, that if West Ham manage ti get back into the premiership then they most certainly have the fan base for sizeable crowds.

When they are in the premiership they regularly hit capacity at Upton Park and tickets are always very difficult to get hold of. The capacity of Upton Park is just short of 40,000 and I think they could come close to 50,000 so this is a strong possibility for a future tennant of the Olympic stadium.

The last I heard was that West Ham would be interested in moving to an Olympic Stadium.

The most important thing is to make sure that the stadium is used fully once the Games are over, in whatever form.

In the design, I'd like to see a mechanism for maintaining the running track for future use, e.g. World Championships.

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I totally agree, we need to be able to revert back to an excellent athletics facility so that we have a premier athletics track in the Capital when we need to make use of it.

I was sad to see that this facility was not incorporated into the design of the Commonwealth games stadium in Manchester. Although they have a new smaller facility next to the Commonwealth Games stadium it would have been better to build something into the design to convert it if and when required. Athletics is very well supported in this country and I'm sure that we could get significant crowds if we had a premier track to compete with the rest of the world.

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Yes, the country needs a national athletics stadium, and the place for that is London. The Olympic Stadium will be kept and used afterwards - we can then get world champs and golden grand prix things.

I think not already having a stadium is a strong point of the bid - it will be a huge legacy for after the games. Also, with things such as the Stade de France, it will be quite old by the time 2012 comes round. It won't be state of the art or new or special.

It would be nice to see a design for the stadium, and it would be great for it to be really beautiful and innovative.

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I think not already having a stadium is a strong point of the bid - it will be a huge legacy for after the games. Also, with things such as the Stade de France, it will be quite old by the time 2012 comes round.

15 years, yes it is too old for a stadium in 2012 (Stade de France was finished in 1997).

I think having a stadium already build is a stronger point for paris and the legacy of an olympiad can share different forms (venues like swimming-pool or a big dome, infrastructures, olympic village...).

Why is the advantage of keeping a stadium without utility after the games. Better destroy it like atlanta's stadium after 1996.   :glare:

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The thing is London couldn't justify an 80,000 stadium just for Athletics.

While it could be the centre piece of an Olympic Games, Commonwealth Games, European or World Championships, the only regular event that may attract a decent crowd is an annual Grand Prix or Golden League meeting.

London couldn't even justify a stadium for the World Champs, which would have held 40,000+ for the event, then downsized to 20,000 as a national athletics venue.

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The thing is London couldn't justify an 80,000 stadium just for Athletics.

While it could be the centre piece of an Olympic Games, Commonwealth Games, European or World Championships, the only regular event that may attract a decent crowd is an annual Grand Prix or Golden League meeting.

London couldn't even justify a stadium for the World Champs, which would have held 40,000+ for the event, then downsized to 20,000 as a national athletics venue.

I am sure the stadium could be downsized after the games. But London could justify a large athletics stadium, Just as (if not more so) any other city in the world can. Concerts, trials, training, meets, club and public use, Grand Prix, Golden League, other events....

A national stadium is a very justifiable thing.

2005 has nothing to do with this.. the site  is different, now with superb transport links, and big public support. That wasnt even the reason London 2005 didnt go ahead... but I'm not getting into that, because it's old, well-trodden and boring.

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Here's an articl;e to answer all your questions...

London Olympic Stadium Boost.

Also, did anyone see the glitzy ceremony on the news? Wembley Stadium has been topped out and Tony Blair, David Beckham and Sven Goran Eriksson all atended to fireworks'n'champagne bash... great news for the bid - the best stadium in the world, a proposed 2012 venue, is nearing completion. :P  :D

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This year, the AAAs Championships, our national athletics championships, were staged in a stadium that holds 6,000. It didn't sell out.

The point has been made about Grand Prix meetings. Yes, Crystal Palace sells out every year at its 18,000 or so capacity. Paris stages its Golden League meetings in the Stade de France. I have never seen it full for one of these meetings. The only time that an athletics stadium of 80,000+ capacity is justified is for an Olympic Games or World Championships.

Which brings me to the article that PatchMan has brought to our attention. I like the idea of a national athletics stadium in London. I always have done. But there are two problems with the proposal as set out here, if true.

First is the capacity. You cannot stage major championships in a stadium of 30,000 capacity. It has to be at least 50,000. What happens if and when we bid for a world championships? The stadium wouldn't be big enough so we'd have to waste money increasing the capacity when it could have been left at the right capacity in the first place.

Second, it would be a white elephant. Here we are talking about legacy. How often would it be used? Not often enough is the answer.

If we are serious about legacy, we have to maintain the Olympic Stadium as a multi-purpose venue that can host athletics. That means making sure it is used and a football club moving in is the best way to achieve this.

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This year, the AAAs Championships, our national athletics championships, were staged in a stadium that holds 6,000. It didn't sell out.

The point has been made about Grand Prix meetings. Yes, Crystal Palace sells out every year at its 18,000 or so capacity. Paris stages its Golden League meetings in the Stade de France. I have never seen it full for one of these meetings. The only time that an athletics stadium of 80,000+ capacity is justified is for an Olympic Games or World Championships.

Which brings me to the article that PatchMan has brought to our attention. I like the idea of a national athletics stadium in London. I always have done. But there are two problems with the proposal as set out here, if true.

First is the capacity. You cannot stage major championships in a stadium of 30,000 capacity. It has to be at least 50,000. What happens if and when we bid for a world championships? The stadium wouldn't be big enough so we'd have to waste money increasing the capacity when it could have been left at the right capacity in the first place.

Second, it would be a white elephant. Here we are talking about legacy. How often would it be used? Not often enough is the answer.

If we are serious about legacy, we have to maintain the Olympic Stadium as a multi-purpose venue that can host athletics. That means making sure it is used and a football club moving in is the best way to achieve this.

A capacity of less than 30,000. What is the problem justifying that? It would bae a national stadium, used by clubs of athletes, national meets, grand prixs and golden leagues, public access too. Concerts and events as well. There is no state of the art place in Britain to do this. That is a legacy. We get a new national athletics stadium...because the old one is, well, really old.

A football club would understandably want to use their ground quite a bit. How would the public have access? Public use is real legacy, not another football ground.

You can not have your national athletics stadium as Spurs' home ground. it's not feasible given timings, logistics for getting athletics track in and out of the stadium without affecting the pitch, but still having trainin and fixtures as well as all those other events and public access.

It wouldnt happen, and it would undermine the legacy of the stadium.

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A capacity of 30,000 is not big enough to host major international athletics championships. Simple as that. Fine for a Grand Prix/Golden League, too big for domestic meetings. Yes it would give us a base, but that base would need expansion for a major championship, which would waste money unnecessarily. What about maintaining the warm-up track as a smaller stadium, as Manchester have done?

On concerts, I would have thought that Wembley will again be London's main outdoor concert venue once it is opened.

On the football point, it is perfectly feasible. How? Design the stadium along the lines of the Stade de France and move the stands as and when you need to. If it works for them, why can't it for us.

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30,000 is not far off, and I'm sure it would be easy to provide temporary seating for maybe 20 or 30 more thousand.

Wembley's capacity will be 90, 000, so it will not be competing with the Olympic stadium for concerts etc. ???

Speaking of Wembley, was it just me who saw that party on the news?

I'm quite looking forward to the bid book submissions, so I can have a good look at London's plans... I'm confident they'll be great. Apparently, Moscow's are already finished.

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30,000 is not far off, and I'm sure it would be easy to provide temporary seating for maybe 20 or 30 more thousand.

Wembley's capacity will be 90, 000, so it will not be competing with the Olympic stadium for concerts etc. ???

Speaking of Wembley, was it just me who saw that party on the news?

I'm quite looking forward to the bid book submissions, so I can have a good look at London's plans... I'm confident they'll be great. Apparently, Moscow's are already finished.

After these terroritst attacks in Russia, Moscows bid is in tatters.

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After these terroritst attacks in Russia, Moscow's bid is in tatters.

I'm not so sure Michelle. I mean, if it happened in Paris or London, I'm not sure the IOC would link it to security of Olympic venues. And it could happen. In fact, I'm surprised we didn't hear one little peep out of terrorists in Athens. Either they didn't see a reason to attack it, or the security there was so water-tight nobody had a reason to fear. Either way, I don't think it is too serious. Could have happened anywhere.

So, back to the point - a national athletics stadium is totally unjustified for the 3-4 days a year it would be used, but we could always do with a multi-use venue:

archery

boxing

BMX races

Modern pentathlon

Some of England football team's home matches

If I'm not mistaken, a couple of Caribbean islands use the UK for some international games (Jamaica, I believe is one). Well, them too!

I mean, don't just stop at sport, let's go on to:

Big religious ceremonies

Outdoor exhibitions - cars, yachts, etc...

Mass cinema screenings (like they do on Clapham Common)

And the list goes on....

But just as a single-use stadium? Waste of land!

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Recent pic of Wembley:

706V5364.jpg

It would be really inspiring if that were an Olympic stadium being built now in time for 2012.

I think we've made an error in not planning effectively: proceeding with a national football stadium now without considering what plans we should have for the Games.

Wasn't there some confusion about this previously, when Chris Smith was Culture Secretary?  I seem to remember a dispute as to whether Wembley should be dual-use or not.

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Recent pic of Wembley:

706V5364.jpg

It would be really inspiring if that were an Olympic stadium being built now in time for 2012.

I think we've made an error in not planning effectively: proceeding with a national football stadium now without considering what plans we should have for the Games.

Wasn't there some confusion about this previously, when Chris Smith was Culture Secretary?  I seem to remember a dispute as to whether Wembley should be dual-use or not.

Wembley is mostly owned by the FA and they decided that the stadium should primarily be a football stadium....no retractable seating was allowed to be installed....instead they proposed an atheltics platform....however the government deided that it wasn't happy with such a temporary solution and told the FA to install a permanent athletics track or give back the government money....which is fair enough since the money was primarily towards the additional costs associated with making the stadium multi purpose. The FA refused to compromise and so the whole Wembley project was put on hold so that the FA could find investors to plug the gap left by the government money...this took some time and in the meantime the government in its wisdom had agreed to host the 2005 IAAF World Athletics Champs in London. Obviously there was no stadium to hold them in and no other suitable venue could be found....so they handed back the Championchips and Helsinki was awarded them instead.... all very embarassing.

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Isn't there still the provision for Wembley to host athletics?

On the 30,000 stadium, yes one can put temporary seating in place for a major championship. But why do that when you can create a stadium of a suitable size post-Olympics?  It just doesn't make sense to me.

Wembley has always been the traditional outdoor concert venue in London. Having said that, I suppose some acts could play at the smaller stadium, because they wouldn't fill Wembley.

On the terrorism issue, I don't think the recent attacks in Russia will overly harm Moscow's chances. We all know that terrorists attacks can happen anywhere at any time. A lot can happen between now and next July.

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From Wembleystadium.com:

Though designed primarily for football, rugby and music events, the new Wembley Stadium is also capable of hosting world-class athletic events.  

A revolutionary solution has been developed to ensure that both football and athletics fans can enjoy perfect views, thanks to a temporary athletics platform that can be installed when necessary.

If Wembley is required to host a major athletics event, the prefabricated platform can be built over the lower bowl, covering some of the seats but creating the increased surface needed to fit an athletics track.  The platform will take just a few weeks to install and remove, making Wembley a versatile, multi-sport venue.

There has been significant progress on securing land for a potential athletics warm-up facility after discussions with the London Borough of Brent. Four possible sites have been identified, with Sherrins Farm likely to prove the most deliverable solution.

The platform solution is very similar to the current proposals for the New York Olympic bid.

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