Winter 2022

[Faster]

Switzerland (Geneva and Zurich), Austria (Salzburg and Vienna), France (Lyon, Toulouse and Nice), Poland (Krakow and Zakopane), Ukraine (Lviv), Norway (Trondheim and Oslo), Sweden (Ostersund), Canada (Quebec City), USA (Reno and Denver), Germany (Munich), Spain (Barcelona and Zaragova)

If the IOC plays its cards right 2022 could be the ultimate Winter smackdown.

Switzerland, Austria, Norway and Sweden all voted for Pyeongchang in the hopes that 2022 will be theirs.

I believe Austria and Norway will bid this time according, the spent considerable capital in their efforts against Munich. Switzerland and Sweden need to harvest their crops by actually bidding this time. Poland and Ukraine are not going to be seeing a games anytime soon but it does not hurt to show the IOC you are interested. Germany will bid again. Spain will again reject the idea of a winter bid and the COC is not stupid enough to put forward Quebec City. The Americans will bid.

This leaves France. Toulouse has already said it wants to bid and Lyon is probably the most logical of all French cities not named Grenoble to bid and be successful under the new model.

[FYI]

Austria wants to bid again?

And someone from France said, I think it was memo, that Lyon was too far away from the mountain resorts. Toulouse would be interested, along with Zaragossa; a Pyrenees Games.

2022 does appear to be shaping up to be European cat-fight, ala 2012 style.

[intoronto]

Austria wants to bid again?

And someone from France said, I think it was memo, that Lyon was too far away from the mountain resorts. Toulouse would be interested, along with Zaragossa; a Pyrenees Games.

2022 does appear to be shaping up to be European cat-fight, ala 2012 style.

A possible event in Andorra

Anyways, if Austria bids who will they go with? the AOC has said they will not bid with Salzburg again and Innsbruck is hosting the 2012 WYOG

[FYI]

I'm surprised that the AOC is even considering it. And if they are, they said they're not gonna go with Salzburg? After Innsbruck & Salzburg, there's only Graz & maybe Klagenfurt left. And Vienna is too far away from the mountains.

Salzburg would be their best bet. Or go with Innsbruck again, their 2nd best option, despite the YOG's & previous hostings, if they don't wanna use Salzburg again. Which would be dumb, IMO.

[Gangwon]

I'd love to see a Sweden Winter Games. Despite any concerns about size, I have faith Ostersund could pull it off and do a great job. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt at least until they come out with a bid book.

[FYI]

If the IOC is willing to scale down the size of the Winter Games somewhat, I'd give Ostersund the benefit of the doubt, too.

[Sir Rols]

I'd love to see a Sweden Winter Games. Despite any concerns about size, I have faith Ostersund could pull it off and do a great job. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt at least until they come out with a bid book.

Thanks mate, and I (unsurprisingly) agree with you. If they can time a bid right and come up with a solid plan (and make some moves to address concerns), I don't see any reason they can't win. Yes, Sweden has had to suffer lots of losses - but not all of those can be attributed to lousy plans. Anybody who has read "Lords of the Rings" should be familiar with a lot of the hijinks in the pre-SLC scandal era that the Falun bid complained about, and always remember, Lillehammer was VERY lucky to get 1994 when Ostersund had been the strong favourite through that race - as Rogge himself has admitted:

...

PyeongChang has been considered as the favourite by some observers, but IOC president Jacques Rogge referred to the 1994 bid race, which saw the Norwegian town of Lillehammer edge out favourite Ostersund in Sweden, as an example of how the form guide can be misleading.

“You have to fight until the end,” Rogge told AFP. “I always take the battle for the 1994 Winter Olympics as an example. Everybody viewed Ostersund as the unstoppable force, and they were candidates for the fifth or sixth time. But it was Lillehammer who won and delivered a fabulous Olympics. At a certain moment they created the right chemistry in their bid, and that can even come on the final day.”

...

sportbusines.com

[Gangwon]

If the IOC is willing to scale down the size of the Winter Games somewhat, I'd give Ostersund the benefit of the doubt, too.

If many IOC members believe that having a Swedish Winter Games might increase the value of the Olympic brand by recapturing some of that Scandinavian winter magic, then I can see them making accomodations for little Ostersund that they might not for another bid.

[worldracer]

Only Åre has 31000 beds. I don't know about Östersund.

Oh, that's good. Not an issue then. How is the transport between the two cities and to the nearest major airport. Would people come in through Stockholm or maybe Oslo?

[Sir Rols]

Oh, that's good. Not an issue then. How is the transport between the two cities and to the nearest major airport. Would people come in through Stockholm or maybe Oslo?

I'll field that one.

Yes, there is a (admittedly smaller regional) airport at Östersund. Ditto Åre. I would assume there would be some type of expansion to accommodate games traffic (if they won).

Ostersund is on a main rail line connecting Stockholm and Trondheim. I know in past bids there had been plans to upgrade the line to be able to handle Sweden's X400 high speed trains (hence my earlier question for Pillan). Trondheim is actually close enough to be able to serve as a second accommodation centre for an Östersund/Åre games.

I actually don't think an Östersund games would be as logistically difficult as many try to portray - as i said before, there's many more reasons beyond ability that cost Sweden their past bids. Östersund itself is actually more than twice the size of Lillehammer.

[baron-pierreIV]

2022 does appear to be shaping up to be European cat-fight, ala 2012 style.

Good for a non-Euro bid, if u know what I mean...

[worldracer]

Thanks for the info.

On the same topic, but totally different continent, can we discuss New Zealand? Putting aside the fact that the Games would have to be in July, is Queenstown the best place for a bid? The town is tiny, only 10000. Even if it was paired with Dunedin for ice events (about 120000), it is 4.5 hours by car. Would this bid ever win?

[Sir Rols]

Thanks for the info.

On the same topic, but totally different continent, can we discuss New Zealand? Putting aside the fact that the Games would have to be in July, is Queenstown the best place for a bid? The town is tiny, only 10000. Even if it was paired with Dunedin for ice events (about 120000), it is 4.5 hours by car. Would this bid ever win?

Hmmmm. That's a bit murkier. Dunedin's pretty tiny. Christchurch would make a more obvious main host. And it also has Mt Hutt resort nearby, which does have the 800m vertical drop required of the ski events, so it perhaps wouldn't even need to pair with Queenstown (which is a fair way away anyway). But then again, Christchurch is not really in any position to aspire to anything at the moment until it is recovered from its quakes.

Queenstown, on the other hand, is THE premier winter skiing area for NZ. And is superbly well equipped with holiday accommodation. It's also the adventure sports capital of NZ - I don't think there'd be anywhere else in the southern hemisphere where a sliding/luge track would be more appropriate. Plus plenty of options and alternative runs and resorts for the snow sports. Do0n't know if it would be big enough for the ice sports (speed skating, ice dancing etc). That probably would have to be farmed out regionally to Dunedin etc.

There's pluses and minuses to both. Still, the reverse seasons from the northern winter sports calendar does seem to be the big killer argument against both.

[FYI]

Logistics was a big part of what cost Gotenberg & Falun their bids. And Ostersund was just foolhardy in thinking that they could get 1998 (& to a lesser extent 2002), when next door neighbor, Lillehammer, was slated for the 1994 Games. I think 1994 was Sweden's best shot with all the intangibles involved, but unfortunate for them, their neighbor Norway stole the show.

I've never made an implication nor an assumption that an Ostersund Games would be "impossible". Only stating that it would be a *challenge* due to their much smaller size compared to the recent trend of the Winter Games moving into bigger cities. Big difference.

I also believe in order for the IOC to go to Sweden, they would have to make some concessions (like they did with Rio) in order to make a plan viable. I know a lot of people here are in love with the nostalgic idea of Sweden hosting it's first ever Winter Games (which is understandable as well), but lets also take other things into consideration, too. Things that an IOC Evaluation Panel would also take into account.

[Sir Rols]

Granted, the Göteborg and Falun bids were problematic logistically. But even Falun wasn't too far out - it managed to beat Lillehammer, for example, in the tie-break to take it into the sixth and final round of voting against Albertville and Sofia for 1992. I'd be interested to see the technical evaluations for Östersund's 1994 bid, though - I'd be surprised if it wasn't one of the highest rated technically to be considered the frontrunner (though it was well before the time when I actually paid much attention to technical reports).

You do seem to dismiss out of hand any notion of Sweden, Switzerland and Austria having a chance to land a bid, based on the fact all have had failed past attempts. Personally, I think all three will inevitably host WOGs at some stage in the future. Patience and persistence, as PC taught us.

And just did a bit of research - it appears that PyeongChang's population is also smaller than Östersund's.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Sir Rols

[FYI]

You do seem to dismiss out of hand any notion of Sweden, Switzerland and Austria having a chance to land a bid, based on the fact all have had failed past attempts.

And just did a bit of research - it appears that PyeongChang's population is also smaller than Östersund's.

Yeah, & remember that PyeongChang is not hosting alone? Gangneung is hosting the Ice events, which is a City of a quater of a million people. PyeongChang is just the Alpine hub.

And I'm not being 'dismissive', rather moreso judicious. I mean look at Austria & Switzerland. They stayed out of 2018 despite 2 other European entrants were gonna take the chance. Were they being dismissive of their own chances there? Out of those 3 though, I'd still give the edge to Switzerland. They also have several failed bids to their name & have the bigger cities to easily accommodate the Winter Games.

[Sir Rols]

Yeah, & remember that PyeongChang is not hosting alone? Gangneung is hosting the Ice events, which is a City of a quater of a million people. PyeongChang is just the Alpine hub.

And I'm not being 'dismissive', rather moreso judicious. I mean look at Austria & Switzerland. They stayed out of 2018 despite 2 other European entrants were gonna take the chance. Were they being dismissive of their own chances there? Out of those 3 though, I'd still give the edge to Switzerland. They also have several failed bids to their name & have the bigger cities to easily accommodate the Winter Games.

Yeah, and similarly, no Östersund bid has proposed Östersund alone - Åre's status is almost exactly analogous to Gangneung in that regard.

I just say that inevitably there will come a time when the attraction of taking the games finally to Sweden will be more enticing to the IOC than going back to the USA, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Canada, Koreea etc. At some stage, inevitably I feel the IOC will think it's time to go back to an alpine heartland like Switzerland or Austria. If last week's election has showed us anything, it is that powerhouses like France and Germany are not unbeatable.

[FYI]

Ostersund & Are's combined population is still nowhere near that of PyeongChang's & Gangneung's. It's like trying to compare Vancouver/Whister to PyeongChang/Gangneung.

I know that Sweden is on your big Olympic "wish list". And I'm not saying that it'll never happen nor that they can't beat places like the U.S., Germany & France. Again though, when the IOC feels the "enticement" of finally taking the Games to Sweden, they're gonna have to make some concessions, ala Rio. I don't see how that's construed into "no, Sweden will never get to host".

[Sir Rols]

I'm not saying they wouldn't have to work for it - EVERY bid would have to work for it. And as for concessions that woud need to be made - well, just as many concesions as had to made for Lillehammer.

Every bid has its challenges. But it's all too easy to get too caught up in negatives and forget the fact that SOMEONE always has to win it.

You just have to look up at the 2020 speculation threads. If an outsider followed discussion there, you could be forgiven for thinking NO-ONE can win it - Madrid's too soon after Barcelona and financially iffy; Rome's too soon after Torino and financially iffy; Toronto's too soon after Vancouver; Tokyo's too soon after the quake/tsunami; Doha's too soon after a highly fishy win for the FIFA WC; Istanbul's too soon and too boring and too risky after three previous bids; Durban's too tainted by South Africa's indecision on whether to go or not, not to mention too risky so soon after Rio; Delhi's too soon after an iffy CWGs; USA is too soon after the Chicago humilation; etc etc etc. Yet one of those IS going to win. And remember, less than a fortnight ago, there was still a significant body of people who thought Korea was too much of a winter sports minnow to have any chance to win 2018.

At the end of the day, I don't want to overestimate its chances, all bids have to fight for it, no bid is perfect, and lord know's, we don't even know if they're really considering it. But I reckon you shouldn't understimate their potential either. They're one of the last remaining capable European bidders with an emotional and "fairness" card to play a la PyeongChang as well.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Sir Rols

[Pillan]

I'll field that one.

Yes, there is a (admittedly smaller regional) airport at Östersund. Ditto Åre. I would assume there would be some type of expansion to accommodate games traffic (if they won).

Ostersund is on a main rail line connecting Stockholm and Trondheim. I know in past bids there had been plans to upgrade the line to be able to handle Sweden's X400 high speed trains (hence my earlier question for Pillan). Trondheim is actually close enough to be able to serve as a second accommodation centre for an Östersund/Åre games.

I actually don't think an Östersund games would be as logistically difficult as many try to portray - as i said before, there's many more reasons beyond ability that cost Sweden their past bids. Östersund itself is actually more than twice the size of Lillehammer.

Thank you for your support!

About the high speed train between Trondheim and Östersund: I don't know. I can't find anything about that.

Åre is Scandinavia's biggest winter resort. Of course there are already airport, railways and good roads. You can go to Östersund with cars and busses too. And of course Sweden should upgrade it if we get the olympics.

FYI keep saying Östersund/Åre is too small to host WOG, still I haven't seen a good explaination to that.

I can find negative things about EVERY bid even from FYI own beloved USA. Should no one host the olympics 2022 then??

FYI hype Germany and France... BUT THEY HAVE ALSO LOST THE BIDS!! They are very beatable. The big city Munich lost to a smaller one who also in a small winter nation. Germany is winter superpower, still they lost to South Korea bery easily. Why that if they are favorites to 2022? Because you are a bigger city that don't mean IOC will like you better than the smaller city.

FIY stop with your childish agenda. Still I wait for GOOD reasons to why Sweden can't win the bid and host WOG.

[nature]

Åre is Scandinavia's biggest winter resort.

I had no idea about the population in Sweden. However, a small city or a small country can host enough. Pyeongchang is only about 40,000 people. The main stage is Pyeongchang. Sweden is in Europe, many people can visit from Europe. Ice rink can build a temporary. Åre has 30,000 rooms according to Pillan. It goes beyond the IOC standards. The most important thing is Sweden is a winter sports powerhouse.

[Pillan]

I had no idea about the population in Sweden. However, a small city or a small country can host enough. Pyeongchang is only about 40,000 people. The main stage is Pyeongchang. Sweden is in Europe, many people can visit from Europe. Ice rink can build a temporary. Åre has 30,000 rooms according to Pillan. It goes beyond the IOC standards. The most important thing is Sweden is a winter sports powerhouse.

Thank you for your post!!

Sweden have 9,4 millions people.

Norway with only 5 millions people has already hosted it. When they hosted the games 1994 I think thay had 4,5 millions people MAX! Why can't Scandinavia's biggest country host it then? Remember to 2022 Sweden's population will be bigger.

Also Peyongchang with only 40,000 people just won the bid EASILY over Munich who has 1-2 millions people. Why didn't Munich won if the population is that important? Östersund/Åre is bigger than Peyongchang plus they are already regular to host winter events. Åre host World cup in Alpine skiing every year. And Östersund host the World cup in Biathlon every year. Åre also already hosted Alpine World championships. They have a TRADITION in hosting winter events that Peyongchang isn't even close to.

Still Peyongchang won over the german ands french bids despite to be a smaller city and not have very good winter traditions.

[FYI]

Sweden have 9,4 millions people.

Norway with only 5 millions people has already hosted it. When they hosted the games 1994 I think thay had 4,5 millions people MAX! Why can't Scandinavia's biggest country host it then? Remember to 2022 Sweden's population will be bigger.

Also Peyongchang with only 40,000 people just won the bid EASILY over Munich who has 1-2 millions people. Why didn't Munich won if the population is that important?

Still Peyongchang won over the german ands french bids despite to be a smaller city and not have very good winter traditions.

Why do so many people keep making this big mistake. PyeongChang is ONLY the Alpine hub! The Ice events will be hosted in nearby Gangneung, which has a much bigger population of 225,000. So together, they are still much bigger than in Annecy's plan, & about the same size as Sochi. And btw, CITIES hosts the Games, NOT countries.

[baron-pierreIV]

And just did a bit of research - it appears that PyeongChang's population is also smaller than Östersund's.

To chime in a little here, PC is just such a strange situation because Gangneung is actually the major metro anchor area /\/\ but since somehow they want to put the Ceremonies at the ski-jump...therefore it is being called the PC Games. It's like if in 2002 they had also wanted to place Ceremonies at the Park City ski jump, then 2002 would've been called Park City 2002 rather than Salt Lake 2002.

Edited July 15, 2011 by baron-pierreIV

[FYI]

You just have to look up at the 2020 speculation threads. If an outsider followed discussion there, you could be forgiven for thinking NO-ONE can win it - Yet one of those IS going to win. And remember, less than a fortnight ago, there was still a significant body of people who thought Korea was too much of a winter sports minnow to have any chance to win 2018.

At the end of the day, I don't want to overestimate its chances, all bids have to fight for it, no bid is perfect, and lord know's, we don't even know if they're really considering it. But I reckon you shouldn't understimate their potential either. They're one of the last remaining capable European bidders with an emotional and "fairness" card to play a la PyeongChang as well.

Yeah, but virtually everyone knew (other than neige & wacky Tulsa) that Annecy's goose was cooked. Which it was.

And I don't think that I'm underestimating. Again, as I've said already, as long as the IOC is willing to make some concessions like they did for Rio, then I don't see too many obstacles. But the Winter Games are now growing almost as much as the Summer Games, which hence, was even a struggle for Athens which is in a small country like Greece to comfortably have tackled.