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baron-pierreIV

Winter 2022

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Until the USOC officially opened the door to 2020, nobody was going to do anything more than express interest.

But even still. Where was this supposed "expressed interest" from New York & Chicago? That was only the media's spin. That still didn't stop communities like Tulsa & Las Vegas from being more vocal & trying to involve city leaders, especailly Tulsa.

Like you, I questioned the WADA papers. But I really think that the USOC was holding out for Los Angeles, the most likely of the Alpha cities to have said at the very last minute; "okay, USOC. We're willing to give it a try, if you're up for another round of Olympic bid roulette". After all, Los Angeles did try to be the 2012 & 2016 U.S. candidate as well, but were passed over both times.

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But even still. Where was this supposed "expressed interest" from New York & Chicago? That was only the media's spin. That still didn't stop communities like Tulsa & Las Vegas from being more vocal & trying to involve city leaders, especailly Tulsa.

Like you, I questioned the WADA papers. But I really think that the USOC was holding out for Los Angeles, the most likely of the Alpha cities to have said at the very last minute; "okay, USOC. We're willing to give it a try, if you're up for another round of Olympic bid roulette". After all, Los Angeles did try to be the 2012 & 2016 U.S. candidate as well, but were passed over both times.

And "expressing interest" is a pretty broad range because it spans everything from say NYC2012, a well-organized effort between local officials and top government offices. As opposed to Tulsa 2020 which was nothing more than a couple of businessmen with delusions of grandeur and no real semblance of a plan. That's where these things tend to get lost in translation because it takes a lot more than "interest" for the USOC to acknowledge you.

Spinning this forward to 2022, you have at least 1 community that is very eager to put a plan together and has the organizational strength to at least get that far. No telling where Denver is in that regard, but they're definitely a step behind Reno-Tahoe in that respect. Of course this is all contingent on the USOC "expressing interest" in putting forth a bid for 2022 and who knows when we'll hear any buzz 1 way or the other on that.

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But even still. Where was this supposed "expressed interest" from New York & Chicago? That was only the media's spin. That still didn't stop communities like Tulsa & Las Vegas from being more vocal & trying to involve city leaders, especailly Tulsa.

Like you, I questioned the WADA papers. But I really think that the USOC was holding out for Los Angeles, the most likely of the Alpha cities to have said at the very last minute; "okay, USOC. We're willing to give it a try, if you're up for another round of Olympic bid roulette". After all, Los Angeles did try to be the 2012 & 2016 U.S. candidate as well, but were passed over both times.

Maybe, maybe not. All that is semi-informed guesswork. It's plausible, but there's just no way to know unless you're on the inside track.

I do agree that the cities that are squawking for 2022 are making more noise. They also have more reason to believe that a revenue deal will be reached and therefore there is a greater possibility that the USOC will bid.

I do think it's worth noting that the noisy cities are not necessarily the best candidates or even the most interested. Sometimes I just think they're the most desperate....

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I do think it's worth noting that the noisy cities are not necessarily the best candidates or even the most interested. Sometimes I just think they're the most desperate....

What? Whakindda idiotic conclusion is that?

Ever heard of "it's the squeaky wheel that gets greased"?

A Winter bid will come before a Summer bid. Get used to it.

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Maybe, maybe not. All that is semi-informed guesswork. It's plausible, but there's just no way to know unless you're on the inside track.

I do agree that the cities that are squawking for 2022 are making more noise. They also have more reason to believe that a revenue deal will be reached and therefore there is a greater possibility that the USOC will bid.

I do think it's worth noting that the noisy cities are not necessarily the best candidates or even the most interested. Sometimes I just think they're the most desperate....

That is some pretty backwards logic there.. so the most interested candidate is the one that's not saying they're interested? Or are you just trying to make a narrow judgment of Reno-Tahoe there that because they're so eager and vocal that it's merely an act of desperation? Again, there's a big difference between making noise and having an organized effort to produce a bid. The onus is on the USOC to decide whether they want to pursue bidding for 2022. I believe they will. And unlike 2020 where they didn't have a city ready to roll, they're probably going to have that for 2022. Whether or not the USOC chooses to endorse them, for that we'll just have to wait and see.

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Interesting! Can you send me link on the 803 drop place.

http://www.ski.co.uk/resorts/scotland/glencoe/

There are several other sites some of which say 2635ft which is the same. And of course the normal vertcial drop at MtAllan used in Calgary 1988 is 779m but they went higher up the mountain for the men's downhill

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I'm a bit lost. I don't know if you are being facetious or not... Finland has perfect winter sports conditions, the only issue is a downhill course which may or may not be addressed with an ambitious project. It has a strong winter sports background and a population active in many winter sports and knowledgeable and enthusiastic about many others. You can hardly compare Helsinki with Glasgow in this regard.

I agree. But Minnesota would be an ideal winter location for the USA if it had a mountain. And Finland reminds me of Minnesota

There is no guarantee Finland will succeed - their plans are terribly difficult as its not a few metres, its hundreds they may need to add. And the downhill is the blue ribband event - it would be like holding the summer games without the athletics.

The point I'm making is that there will be always locations, not traditional locations who by a freak of geography will have a better chance if the IOC will not compromise. And when you read about Quebec's withdrawl, the IOC won't compromise

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^^ Quebec can easily modify one of the existing 600-700 odd meter drop mountain sides near Le Massif, without the need for an artificial finishing area at the St Lawrence river.

It would be costly, perhaps 3 times as much as a temporary ramp, might be somewhat environmentally hazardous, but would be a lasting legacy for downhill skiing in the region.

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^^ Quebec can easily modify one of the existing 600-700 odd meter drop mountain sides near Le Massif, without the need for an artificial finishing area at the St Lawrence river.

It would be costly, perhaps 3 times as much as a temporary ramp, might be somewhat environmentally hazardous, but would be a lasting legacy for downhill skiing in the region.

Le Massif is about 30 metres short. They looked into finishing on pontoons in the St Lawrence but that didn't work. They then looked at another side of the mountain, but the terrain is simply to gentle - Russo looked at it and said you couldn't have a suitably changing run. A pity as Quebec would be a great venue.

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That is some pretty backwards logic there.. so the most interested candidate is the one that's not saying they're interested? Or are you just trying to make a narrow judgment of Reno-Tahoe there that because they're so eager and vocal that it's merely an act of desperation? Again, there's a big difference between making noise and having an organized effort to produce a bid. The onus is on the USOC to decide whether they want to pursue bidding for 2022. I believe they will. And unlike 2020 where they didn't have a city ready to roll, they're probably going to have that for 2022. Whether or not the USOC chooses to endorse them, for that we'll just have to wait and see.

I did not make the statement with which you are taking issue. I said that the noisiness of a bid is not necessarily an indicator of that bid's competitive quality or their level of interest. For example -- look at Tulsa.

It's possible that a noisy bid is competitive and serious. It's also possible that a quieter bid is both more competitive and more serious about the Games.

In other words, the noisiness of a bid doesn't prove very much one way or the other.

This is especially true when the application deadline is years away.

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I did not make the statement with which you are taking issue. I said that the noisiness of a bid is not necessarily an indicator of that bid's competitive quality or their level of interest. For example -- look at Tulsa.

It's possible that a noisy bid is competitive and serious. It's also possible that a quieter bid is both more competitive and more serious about the Games.

In other words, the noisiness of a bid doesn't prove very much one way or the other.

This is especially true when the application deadline is years away.

Yea, I had a feeling if you weren't referring to Reno, it was Tulsa. Either way, it's still a pointless empty statement. At the risk of sounding like baron here, all you're saying is "well maybe it is, but maybe it isn't. It's possible that it is, but it's possible that it's the other thing." You're the one who brought up the "noisiness" of a bid and are now saying it's not an indicator of anything. So why bring it up in that context.

And with regard to Tulsa (seriously, why do we even continue to acknowledge they exist).. their "noise" had nothing to do with their bid. It was more a desperate cry for attention, and by the fact their name was brought up and more that we're still talking about them, it worked! But we all know what Tulsa was and is, regardless of how much noise they made and that's all you need to know about that. It's not an example of anything, and again, to bring them up in the context of whether or not their actions are an indicator of a good bid is doing a disservice to other serious bids.

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When posters use the noisiness of any bid to demonstrate that bid's viability, it's appropriate to say "Actually the quantity of publicity doesn't prove very much one way or the other."

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When posters use the noisiness of any bid to demonstrate that bid's viability, it's appropriate to say "Actually the quantity of publicity doesn't prove very much one way or the other."

And what posters we're using noisiness to demonstrate a bid's viability? Please don't tell me Tulsa is your example there because the posters who thought that bid could ever be viable are morons, no matter how noisy they were and I'm pretty sure most of us here were smart enough to dismiss them and their noise. I mean, when does the amount of publicity prove anything about anything!? Let alone on a discussion forum. Just because we choose to talk about something here (again, it almost saddens me that we're continuing to talk about Tulsa) is not a measure of what's going on in the real world outside this forum.

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For a Munich 2022 bid, I wonder if one of the changes might be to use the Eisstadion Inzell.

The speed skating rink was previously open air and was one of Europe's fastest, but now they've enclosed it

It is directly on the way to the famous Schonau am Kongissee bobsleigh run (this is 150km) and Inzell is 116km down the same road.

It would help to alleviate 'Green' opposition as this was one of the temporary venues that they were looking to build in Munich.

If they continue to use the Olympiahalle for Figure and Short Track skating, the swimming pool for curling, and build on the old Velodrome for one of the Ice Hockey venues, then that leaves them with a single new venue site to find. Alternatively there is a venue in either Augsburg or Garmish that could be used as the second ice hockey venue.

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For a Munich 2022 bid, I wonder if one of the changes might be to use the Eisstadion Inzell.

The speed skating rink was previously open air and was one of Europe's fastest, but now they've enclosed it

It is directly on the way to the famous Schonau am Kongissee bobsleigh run (this is 150km) and Inzell is 116km down the same road.

It would help to alleviate 'Green' opposition as this was one of the temporary venues that they were looking to build in Munich.

If they continue to use the Olympiahalle for Figure and Short Track skating, the swimming pool for curling, and build on the old Velodrome for one of the Ice Hockey venues, then that leaves them with a single new venue site to find. Alternatively there is a venue in either Augsburg or Garmish that could be used as the second ice hockey venue.

Usually the ice events are all clustered in the city (when big cities host).

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This is the problem with going green. Very often it's at odds with the objective of keeping venue clusters ultra-condensed. The IOC says they want it both ways, but it appears that compactness trumps environmental concerns pretty consistently.

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Usually the ice events are all clustered in the city (when big cities host).

Not necessarily. Depends on who's bidding. Vancouver really only had 2 venues near each other and both were pre-existing before the Olympics. Torino had a couple of existing venues close together and others were built nearby. Salt Lake didn't have anything close save for the Delta Center being near Salt Palace.

Doesn't really need to go 1 way or the other, just depends on what makes sense for the city.

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I don't think that anyone was asserting that Tulsa's "noise" meant that they were a "viable" candidate. I certainly didn't. And if anybody took it that way, then they are "misrepresenting" what I said. Anyone with have a brain knows that Tulsa is a no-go, point blank.

What I meant by that is, if there were any "interest" from anyone "worthwhile" that they would've said so regardless, just like Tulsa & just like Vegas did. I mean what was Chicago (or New York for that matter) to lose, especially when it wouldn't have taken them too much to get the ball rolling again since they still could've put the recently broken 2016 pieces back together without too much effort (other than the finances for the bid), to say; "while we understand the USOC's position about 2020, we would at least like to acknowledge that they City of Chicago is still very much interested in pursuing the Olympics. The offer is there, if the USOC decides to go ahead with a bid".

Case in point; look at Reno & Denver. Two very likely & REAL contenders that are already trying to grab the USOC's attention, & which they could pick from if they choose to go ahead with a 2022 bid. That was the crux of the matter. Not that Tulsa was viable simply because they were making "noise". Puh-leeze.

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I wasn't referring to Tulsa per se. I question the idea that ANY bid's viability can be measured by the quantity of publicity. That goes for Tulsa, Denver, Chicago, Munich, anybody.

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A couple things;

The Princess Royal is a very low-key IOC member. She rarely lobbies and does not always vote. She didn't for the 2018 race. She would not have been very active in London's lobbying. Moreso a dignified observer and supporter of London.

Russian power in the IOC got Moscow into the final 5 and got them a respectable showing.

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Not necessarily. Depends on who's bidding. Vancouver really only had 2 venues near each other and both were pre-existing before the Olympics. Torino had a couple of existing venues close together and others were built nearby. Salt Lake didn't have anything close save for the Delta Center being near Salt Palace.

Doesn't really need to go 1 way or the other, just depends on what makes sense for the city.

I think if they made changes to the bid in regard to venues, they would not be adding to the overall footprint and compactness of the bid.

The Inzell speed skating rink is actually on the way to the proposed bobsleigh run - you pass through Inzell. It is straight down the E45 towards Austria and you normally pass through Inzell to get to the bobsleigh run at Schonau am Konigsee.

As events are already being held at Garmish it seems foolish not to use the already built Garmish Olympic Hall.

This was would allow a larger arena in Munich to be the permanent home of EHC Muncheon, swapping temporary for legacy and replace the small Olympia Eisalle. Alternatively the Eisalle could be used as a 2nd venue and a larger temporary rink built for all but the finals. Or the Eishalle could be used for Curling, a larger arena built on the Velodrome and Garmish used.

None really adds to the overall size of the games

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Kermis, you're so knowledgeable about this. I'm impressed!

Aargh. Darn auto-correct. That was supposed to be Kernow...

LOL - I wish I was. I just look things up.

Re: Munich. I know reasonably well. The rest you can find online. For example in Munich there are a number of venues that a 2022 bid might alternatively use which meant there would be less need for temporary venues

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