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2020 Olympics short list


Triffle

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The United States isn't running for 2020, though. So it's pointless to even mention it. Italy, on the other hand, IS running.

And yet mentioning France or Germany before is really useful, isn't it?

Let any city bid, and let the IOC decide where they want to set up its show. I'll set up an orchard, meanwhile :rolleyes:

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And yet mentioning France or Germany before is really useful, isn't it?

Let any city bid, and let the IOC decide where they want to set up its show. I'll set up an orchard, meanwhile :rolleyes:

Well, you're the one who brought it up.

Mentioning France & Germany is really useful because you (Spain) are also viewed against your fellow European countries since the IOC views things in continental groupings. So, of course, you will be weighed against the other major countries in your 'hood. What do you want? That the other older European countries who have a longer history and more overall medals than Spain be completely IGNORED because Spain is going to bid? That's NOT the way it works.

It's just as odd as you: you are one of the few Spaniards who takes some joy if your football stars are defeated (because you don't want their heads and their paychecks swelling too much - am I not right?) but at the same time, you appear to take great joy and hope in each of Spain/Madrid's renewed Olympic bids (even though outsiders view it as fruitless bids).

Athan, an Andorra is NOT the same as a Rio/Sao Paulo/Brazil; a Monaco is not the same as a Tokyo/Osaka/Japan. It's a similar thing with several children in the same family. The oldest one has prerogatives that the others won't have; likewise, the youngest one has advantages and perks that his/her older siblings won't have.

If you accept the fact that NOT all things are equal, then you'll get it. But if you insist that it should all be a level, playing field...then you won't. Simple as that.

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And yet mentioning France or Germany before is really useful, isn't it?

Let any city bid, and let the IOC decide where they want to set up its show. I'll set up an orchard, meanwhile :rolleyes:

Exactly, i mean they are not going to tell madrid to stop throwing money at silly bids...

Madrid is a city I love, i was there in November. In my mind it is a better city than Rome (which I was also in in November). However the simple fact that Barcelona was 1992 will still, in my opinion be a major hurdle when push comes to shove in many IOC folks minds. 2032 could be Madrids year then. I dont doubt that it will host one day though, just cant see it right now. Even more so with the seriously bad bad shape of the Spanish economy (yes i know Italy is not in a super position either).

But what the heck, the Madrid amuse us

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I like your answer, baron. Now, little by little:

Well, you're the one who brought it up.

Mentioning France & Germany is really useful because you (Spain) are also viewed against your fellow European countries since the IOC views things in continental groupings. So, of course, you will be weighed against the other major countries in your 'hood. What do you want? That the other older European countries who have a longer history and more overall medals than Spain be completely IGNORED because Spain is going to bid? That's NOT the way it works.

What did I bring up? I did never talk about France or Germany. Of course, with hypotetical bids from Paris or Berlin I could understand they would be better positioned than Spain. That's not the case with Italy, IMO. It's true that Barcelona is more recent than Rome, but it's also true that it's the same IOC who chose Torino the one that will choose for 2020, an that's even more recent. Economy might be better for the Italians, transport is better for the Spaniards... and they're both similar cities from similar countries (and Madrid hasn't hosted yet, take a look what I say in the end). I don't see such a great difference.

It's just as odd as you: you are one of the few Spaniards who takes some joy if your football stars are defeated (because you don't want their heads and their paychecks swelling too much - am I not right?) but at the same time, you appear to take great joy and hope in each of Spain/Madrid's renewed Olympic bids (even though outsiders view it as fruitless bids).

You know well. Football is the exception for me. But that's what usually happens in sport. No one wants the strong teams to win (unless it's the one you support). The fact is that I don't want them to win because I'm really tired of hearing about them everyday everywhere at any time. Paychecks are also important, but secondary. Of course I didn't like the huge amounts of money they earned (from the government, apart from the FIFA economical award) by winning in South Africa, but that's because I think that money could be spent in supporting and improving the (minority, and not so minority) sports level in Spain and reaching countries like France or Italy in important multisports events instead of helping footballers buy their eleventh house in Switzerland - and I think it's possible, but the first step is taking a look at other sports different from football and basketball. That's what the Barcelona Olympics brought to Spain, and that's what I hope will happen again when Madrid gets to host. I enjoy when media talk about other sports during the Olympics, but that only happens once every four years, and they even dare criticizing the Spanish athletes because they don't perform well. What do they expect?

It's just a matter of ... feelings (?). And Olympic races are more exciting if your country takes part! :P

Athan, an Andorra is NOT the same as a Rio/Sao Paulo/Brazil; a Monaco is not the same as a Tokyo/Osaka/Japan. It's a similar thing with several children in the same family. The oldest one has prerogatives that the others won't have; likewise, the youngest one has advantages and perks that his/her older siblings won't have.

If you accept the fact that NOT all things are equal, then you'll get it. But if you insist that it should all be a level, playing field...then you won't. Simple as that.

I do understand. It's up to you if you believe me or not. But I also insist that all cities should be given a chance (and, hey, I might be saying Atlanta was good). For example, forgetting about Spain, France, Germany, Italy, the United States, Andorra, Brazil, Monaco and Japan... let's go with China or Korea: if Beijing bids for, say, 2036, I'll be the first to say it's too early, but if the Chinese city bidding was Shanghai, I wouldn't really mind. And I can say the same about Busan. Or imagine Durban gets 2020 and Cape Town bids for 2048, would it be too early? If their project is really good, I don't see why they should be immediately rejected. Let their rivals beating them fairly.

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I back Madrid bidding again because they offer a low risk, high quality Games plan in a great city.

Doesn't mean I think they have much of a chance in the final round against a new frontier but never say never.

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Strong Euro-opponent Rome, being in the picture this time around though, won't get Madrid into the final round.

What did I bring up? I did never talk about France or Germany.

You brought up the United States though, & being "greedy". The U.S. is a non-issue for 2020. That's what he meant about you bringing it up.

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Of course, with hypotetical bids from Paris or Berlin I could understand they would be better positioned than Spain. That's not the case with Italy, IMO. It's true that Barcelona is more recent than Rome, but it's also true that it's the same IOC who chose Torino the one that will choose for 2020, an that's even more recent. Economy might be better for the Italians, transport is better for the Spaniards... and they're both similar cities from similar countries (and Madrid hasn't hosted yet, take a look what I say in the end). I don't see such a great difference.

But you were refuting Baron's point about Spain AND Canada. Whereas Canada's 2010 Winter hosting is much more recent than Italy's 2006's. And Canada doesn't have as much influence within the IOC as Italy nor it's Summer Olympic prowess.

And yes, Turin was much more recent than Barcelona, but lets compare apples to apples, shall we. This incessant "claim" that it's the "same thing or that you don't see such a great difference" is coming from someone that is totally bias.

You persistantly & stubbornly refuse to acknowledge Italy's 5 IOC members & Summer Olympic medal tally despite everything else. So, yes. There actually is a great difference between Italy & Spain in all of those ascpects. You constantly viewing it in black & white & with blinders on (you're almost as bad as Tulsa in this sense) isn't going to change those pro facts for Italy & more imporantly, the IOC will most certainly take all those point into account when it's time to evaluate & vote.

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But you were refuting Baron's point about Spain AND Canada. Whereas Canada's 2010 Winter hosting is much more recent than Italy's 2006's.

And what does it have to do with France or Germany? :huh:

And Vancouver 2010 is not much more recent than Turin. In that case, Nagano is prehistoric!

And yes, Turin was much more recent than Barcelona, but lets compare apples to apples, shall we. This incessant "claim" that it's the "same thing or that you don't see such a great difference" is coming from someone that is totally bias.

You persistantly & stubbornly refuse to acknowledge Italy's 5 IOC members & Summer Olympic medal tally despite everything else. So, yes. There actually is a great difference between Italy & Spain in all of those ascpects. You constantly viewing it in black & white & with blinders on (you're almost as bad as Tulsa in this sense) isn't going to change those pro facts for Italy & more imporantly, the IOC will most certainly take all those point into account when it's time to evaluate & vote.

Yes, I'm biased. I've never denied it. In fact, I have said it more than once in other threads. And I don't refuse to acknowledge Italy is more influential, but it would not be the first time we see the influential country lose. I'm not going to say examples because I'm sure they would be apples & oranges :rolleyes:

Who views it in black & white & with blinders? I will accept the result whatever it is (including Rome or Durban), would you if other city won?

Tulsa supports Annecy, it might not be the one you don't want to win (in fact, I support the one Tulsa doesn't like at all), but there's no problem with it. Not everyone's going to like the same cities.

And I'm just giving my opinion, I'm not right or wrong, and neither are you. How boring if we all thought the same! That's why we are here, to discuss about bids, isn't it? There are no universal truths, every opinion is valid.

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You're right, every opinion is valid, but there's also a difference with being objective & looking at all the different angles vs simply just being wreckless & partial.

And I'm not talking about France & Germany. I didn't bring it up. But YOU brought up & 'comparing' the United States, which again they're not officially bidding.

And you're confusing influential with "favorite". Since obviously, the most influential bidder wins the most IOC votes. But that doesn't necessarily translate that the favorite was also the most influential (i.e. London winning over Paris).

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I think I've never said "it HAS to be Madrid", and I've never underestimated any other city.

I brought up comparing... OK. But comparing is something common. If my US comparison is not valid, then we can only compare to Rome... Paris or Berlin wouldn't be valid either.

If we have to wait until the vote finishes to know the most influential country, talking about Italy's influence now is pointless.

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Athan, as unpalatable as it must be to you without the influence of Juan the Wily Old Falangist a Madrid bid for 2020 is going to be almost as dead as the not-much-missed Samaranch senior. Yes, the Madrilenos can bid as much and in as profligate manner as always for a third stab at the five ring circus but as others (particularly Faster) have mentioned the presence of 5 Italian IOC members already swings a significant potential block of support behind Rome. Assuming Durban (or any other SA city gets the SASCOC nod) then the African voting bloc may be heading down that path, and who is to say where the cards will fall from the likes of Doha or other Middle Eastern candidates, perhaps Istanbul, Hiroshima/Tokyo and perhaps a real outsider (one of those meccas of Central Asian sport like Almaty or Tashkent).

Madrid had its best chance when it lost out to Rio; unfortunately for Spaniards neither the Infanta or mini-Juan will be able to wrangle in the voting bloc like the late Maquis, and when all is said and done what can Madrid offer this time that it hasn't already done in its past two bids? It may host down the road, perhaps in the next twenty-thirty years. But you can only offer the same or slightly changed product to your customers a couple of times before buyer disinterest and rival tenders become more attractive.

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Madrid had its best chance when it lost out to Rio;

It's very easy to say that now, but remember everyone here was pretty sure Madrid was going out the first. Therefore, having to chance at all of getting 2016.

The same was said when the city lost for 2012. After the vote it seems Madrid had always had its best chance...

And I believe that after JAS death, Spain can still "use" him for the very last time. I don't know how or when, but I think it's still possible to play his ultimate sentimental card.

And I have just realized, there has already been a bid process with powerhouse Italy and new frontier South Africa competing, and none of them won. I imagine Italy was as influential as it is today. On the other hand, South Africa has been reinforced with the FIFA World Cup.

But all we can do until the vote ends is speculate.

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I brought up comparing... OK. But comparing is something common. If my US comparison is not valid, then we can only compare to Rome... Paris or Berlin wouldn't be valid either.

Yes, comparing is something common. However, the U.S. has OFFICIALLY said that they're NOT bidding. On the other hand, we don't know what France & Germany's stance may be about 2020 once the 2018 race is over. So that scenario is more plausible to "compare" than that of the U.S. which already has said a big fat "NO" to 2020.

If we have to wait until the vote finishes to know the most influential country, talking about Italy's influence now is pointless.

Again, you're confusing influential with "favorite". So it's not 'pointless' (only to a bias supporter) how Italy's influence within the IOC could very well make out the outcome.

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Ummmmm, I beg to differ. You've done it with Durban on a consistent basis.

Yes, I've said Durban is not the best city South Africa can offer to the IOC in my opinion and I have doubts about how they would organize the Games. But I've also said they have many options of getting the Games and that I admire they're the only South African city that has shown interest in the Olympics.

One thing is preferring other city to host, and another thing, quite different, is underestimating and hating a city. What I feel about Durban is the first, but if they finally get the Games, it would be fine to me.

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It's very easy to say that now, but remember everyone here was pretty sure Madrid was going out the first. Therefore, having to chance at all of getting 2016.

The same was said when the city lost for 2012. After the vote it seems Madrid had always had its best chance...

And I have just realized, there has already been a bid process with powerhouse Italy and new frontier South Africa competing, and none of them won. I imagine Italy was as influential as it is today. On the other hand, South Africa has been reinforced with the FIFA World Cup.

But all we can do until the vote ends is speculate.

Actually, the 2012 vote almost panned-out to a tee except the final round. Moscow was the one predicted to go out first (which it was), followed by New York, then Madrid. And 2016 is much more complicated than just saying "but remember everyone here yada, yada, yada".

And thinking in black-&-white again? So Italy bid for 2004 & lost. Okay, however, they lost to Athens which was it's second bid in 8 years & was already the sentimental favorite. The Italians also soured-up their chances by being extremely arrogant & presumptutious during the bid process which didn't bode well with the IOC. And I can't recall how many Italian IOC members there were in back in 1997, but it probably wasn't as many as there are today.

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It's very easy to say that now, but remember everyone here was pretty sure Madrid was going out the first. Therefore, having to chance at all of getting 2016.

The same was said when the city lost for 2012. After the vote it seems Madrid had always had its best chance...

And I believe that after JAS death, Spain can still "use" him for the very last time. I don't know how or when, but I think it's still possible to play his ultimate sentimental card.

And I have just realized, there has already been a bid process with powerhouse Italy and new frontier South Africa competing, and none of them won. I imagine Italy was as influential as it is today. On the other hand, South Africa has been reinforced with the FIFA World Cup.

But all we can do until the vote ends is speculate.

Use the long dead WOF for a vote to be taken almost 3 years after he carked it? :blink: :blink: What can a Madrid 2020 bid team do; bring him back to life through some kind of voodoo/stem cell research? A Juanimatronic Cyborg WOF? Put WOF Junior in some of his dad's clothes and old man make-up?

Honestly Athan what the hell would the likes of harking back to the Juan Senior era do for a bid that is taking its third successive shot at what could be a crowded bid race and at a totally-Juan-less-influenced IOC? Next thing you know Annecy will be bringing back the ghost of Pierre de Coubertin, or our American friends will be asking for the skeleton of Avery Brundage to work some pro-2022 or later influence on a future US bid.

As for your allusion to the 2004 vote (I assume that's what you mean for the reference to Italy and South Africa dipping out) the elephant in the room way back in 1997 was Gianna Angelopoulos and the Athens bid. Rome 2004 couldn't match the charm of Gianna's bid team, plus there was a significant guilt trip laid on the then IOC after the failure of Athens to win the 1996 rights (which were awarded to Atlanta who arguably went on to disappoint the IOC). Cape Town did remarkably well in 97 (South Africa was only just back in the Olympic fold for 5 years when the 2004 vote was held), beating out a technically more substantive bid from Stockholm. However the CT2004 bid team were inexperienced and hadn't formed the networks within the IOC like SASCOC have now.

Madrid 2020 is a nice pipe dream for you and all Spaniards to have (well at least the Castilians...I guess a few Basques are still keen on it returning to Barcelona) but as things stand now with Rome the only official bid, Durban a possible and Hiroshima and Doha faint maybes I'd say you;d be pushing poo uphill to get the result you didn't get two bids in a row in BA in 2013.

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Madrid 2020 is a nice pipe dream for you and all Spaniards to have (well at least the Castilians...I guess a few Basques are still keen on it returning to Barcelona) but as things stand now with Rome the only official bid, Durban a possible and Hiroshima and Doha faint maybes I'd say you;d be pushing poo uphill to get the result you didn't get two bids in a row in BA in 2013.

The let it be a dream :D Just one thing, Basque nationalists may want the Games to be in the Basque Country, it's Catalan nationalists that would prefer Barcelona again instead of Madrid ;)

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One thing is preferring other city to host, and another thing, quite different, is underestimating and hating a city. What I feel about Durban is the first, but if they finally get the Games, it would be fine to me.

Since when does being objective & impartial equate to underestimating & "hating" Madrid?! :blink:

I don't hate Madrid, & I don't underestimate the city's capabilites on hosting an Olympic Games, on the contrary. But lets be realistic & also look at the bigger picture, shall we.

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OK, let's finish with these stupid conversations.

I never meant to be a Madrid fanatic. If any of you have understood me that way, then it's because I probably haven't expressed myself properly, which is quite possible because I have the language handicap and I've probably said one thing when I meant another (that's what might be happening with Tulsa, too). Anyway, I hope you understand I will defend my opinions even though the rest of the people differ.

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I think one of the biggest problems facing 2018/2020 is that 2014 went to the wrong city in terms of a cohesive rotation. Having another Europe-Europe after 1992-1994 and 2004-2006 is making many scenario's hard to imagine. Add into this the ambiguity of the Russian position, rumours of loyalty to the Japanese, combined with known affiliations with the Italians. If the Russians support the Japanese, their considerable weight will go behind Munich, if it is the Italians, behind Pyeonchang.

The Italians are strong but CONI is still not well liked by all accounts. There could be a very big backlash against the Italians like in 2004, just like when the Swiss were at the hit of their power and lost in 2006. Obviously the Swiss ending the party had an impact but resentment over that many IOC members can be palpable.

In the end, any discussion about 2020 is contingent on 3 things. First is who wins 2018, Munich would keep many European bidders in the gates, while Pyeonchang winning might get Madrid, Paris, Rome and Berlin out of the woodwork, add in a Tokyo and Durban could be hard pressed to make a shortlist. The depth of the field will have a huge impact, if major cities from 5 or more major countries bid, Durban could be left on the cutting room floor just like Rio was in 2012. Finally Durban’s plan: it has to be feasible, realistic and most of all address the considerable issues facing Durban.

Unlike what some think, the IOC is in no rush to go anywhere. The constant loses of Paris should give you that hint. The IOC will go where they want, when they want. And I will still maintain, the IOC went to Rio de Janeiro, they didn’t go to Brasilia or Belo Horizonte. And the same people here that are talking about Durban as a shoe-in were also the same people saying Brazil could only win with Rio and no Sao Paolo.

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I think one of the biggest problems facing 2018/2020 is that 2014 went to the wrong city in terms of a cohesive rotation. Having another Europe-Europe after 1992-1994 and 2004-2006 is making many scenario's hard to imagine. Add into this the ambiguity of the Russian position, rumours of loyalty to the Japanese, combined with known affiliations with the Italians. If the Russians support the Japanese, their considerable weight will go behind Munich, if it is the Italians, behind Pyeonchang.

The Italians are strong but CONI is still not well liked by all accounts. There could be a very big backlash against the Italians like in 2004, just like when the Swiss were at the hit of their power and lost in 2006. Obviously the Swiss ending the party had an impact but resentment over that many IOC members can be palpable.

In the end, any discussion about 2020 is contingent on 3 things. First is who wins 2018, Munich would keep many European bidders in the gates, while Pyeonchang winning might get Madrid, Paris, Rome and Berlin out of the woodwork, add in a Tokyo and Durban could be hard pressed to make a shortlist. The depth of the field will have a huge impact, if major cities from 5 or more major countries bid, Durban could be left on the cutting room floor just like Rio was in 2012. Finally Durban’s plan: it has to be feasible, realistic and most of all address the considerable issues facing Durban.

Unlike what some think, the IOC is in no rush to go anywhere. The constant loses of Paris should give you that hint. The IOC will go where they want, when they want. And I will still maintain, the IOC went to Rio de Janeiro, they didn’t go to Brasilia or Belo Horizonte. And the same people here that are talking about Durban as a shoe-in were also the same people saying Brazil could only win with Rio and no Sao Paolo.

Interesting points, particularly regarding the status of CONI and its influence on the IOC membership (tend to agree with the issue you've raised Faster that the Italians may not be the most popular IOC members because of their NOC). Also the 2018 vote will suck some of the energy out of some (potential) 2020 bids. Durban is also no shoe in, and the IOC won't rush like a bull at a gate for an African games just because some kind of agenda has been set in motion by the success of the 2010 WC.

Let's face it, we're all like Ray Charles in an unlit room with no windows looking for a black dog that isn't there. We can make sume presumptive and hopefully educated guesses but this far out with so much to happen nothing and no one is certain.

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There's no confusing your (& Tulsa's) bias rants. No matter how much of a "language handicap" you claim to have.

Still wanna sow discord?

I suppose you've read the last sentence in my last post. It explains what you call "rant". IMO, "rant" would be if someone suddenly started to insult constantly others, I just pointed out something I didn't agree with (and that was related to Canada, BTW). In the rest of my posts until here I've been defending myself and my opinions. My arguments might have been based in things you haven't liked, but that's what they all were: arguments.

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