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2020 Olympics short list


Triffle

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A, /\/\ you're forgetting the location of Winter 2018. That will impact the 2020 race.

However, the climate, for me, is the biggest advantage that Durban has over CT.

And this is the point where the SAOA (is that the right appellation for the RSA NOC?) made the very astute choice. Next year's IOC Session in Durban will pretty much happen at exactly the same time they are projecting 2020 to take place. So this is NOT like picking a Dubai July or a Roman August in an airconditioned boardroom.

BTW, if the Vatican hosts one of its big Holy Year thingies for summer 2020, then that's another nail in Rome's coffin.

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A, /\/\ you're forgetting the location of Winter 2018. That will impact the 2020 race.

And this is the point where the SAOA (is that the right appellation for the RSA NOC?) made the very astute choice. Next year's IOC Session in Durban will pretty much happen at exactly the same time they are projecting 2020 to take place. So this is NOT like picking a Dubai July or a Roman August in an airconditioned boardroom.

BTW, if the Vatican hosts one of its big Holy Year thingies for summer 2020, then that's another nail in Rome's coffin.

I don't believe that 2018 WOG host election will impact that much. There are too many precedents of successive WOG and SOG hosts from the same continent for it to be a problem. Even if PC takes 2018, it won't be very difficult for an Asian country to win in 2020. Beijing was close to take the 2000 SOGs after Nagano was elected for 1998. And I don't think that Nagano 98 played a major role in that election. However, if Munich wins, it is all open. A WOG European host followed by a SOG European host is a regular occurrence.

The main question is whether a deal between Asian and European members is viable. If so, RSA will have to wait a little bit more.

I am not discarding Durban as one of the front runners, but I don't think it will be easy. There is a genuine will on the IOC EB to push to host an SOG in Africa, but the EB doesn't have enough power over the IOC members to pick a winner. The IOC is not FIFA.

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All these things are pretty interesting!

In fact, we can already find several European cities interested waiting for the Games (Paris, Istanbul, Rome & Madrid). If they all had to wait Europe's 12 years starting in 2024, the last one will be hosting in 2060!! And then there would be many more European cities waiting (Berlin and Moscow, among the strongest).

It seems the more logical hosts in order for this not to happen is:

2020 Europe

2024 Africa

2028 North America or Asia (depending on the Winter Olympics)

2032 Europe

2036 North America or Asia (depending on 2028)

2040 Europe

2044 New frontier/Oceania (could be India, or New Zealand if Asia didn't host in 2036)

2048 Europe

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I am not discarding Durban as one of the front runners, but I don't think it will be easy. There is a genuine will on the IOC EB to push to host an SOG in Africa, but the EB doesn't have enough power over the IOC members to pick a winner. The IOC is not FIFA.

I know the variables of the 2 orgs; but I think you are going too much by tradition here. Copenhagen 2009 showed that the IOC will seek new frontiers. July 2010 proved that RSA can host a gargantuan event; Zurich/December 2010 proved that the tried-and-true (at least for the 2018 race) will be wasted and the daring and near-quixotic for 2022 will prevail against all odds. I DON'T think it will be as hard as you are projecting it to be--despite what you say are the Asian-European aspirations. Asians know how to wait while Europeans may ALSO realize that they CAN'T grab everything. And having a would-be host right in your face (and remember the 2020 choice will be made in a southern setting--and you of all people, from Brazil--should know that) bodes very well for a southern African candidate. Why can't Durban and its allies also trade favors with votes in 2018, 2022 and beyond? And as Seb says, they have two prominent advocates in the EB or the IOC's inner circles.

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Considering that the only European bidders for 2020 are Rome and Madrid, if the deal between Europe and Asia is possible, Madrid will also know how to get many votes from South America now Rio won't be there in their way. That would leave Durban with the votes from Paris supporters, some Africans (not the Nawal el-Motawakel kind of Africans) and North Americans (and would they really want them to host instead of Europe, their biggest rotation rival?).

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Considering that the only European bidders for 2020 are Rome and Madrid, if the deal between Europe and Asia is possible, Madrid will also know how to get many votes from South America now Rio won't be there in their way. That would leave Durban with the votes from Paris supporters, some Africans (not the Nawal el-Motawakel kind of Africans) and North Americans (and would they really want them to host instead of Europe, their biggest rotation rival?).

Madrid hasn't EVEN declared for 2020. I mean Paris 1992? 2008? 2012? :blink: Hello?

Madrid is NO Paris. How can Spain really aspire for a 2nd SOG when France hasn't had one in like 90 years? Germany's last one was 1972; Russia 1980...and Spain wants another one? I mean you won one World Cup but another SOG? Kinda overly ambitious.

Further, JAS is gone; Spain's credit rating is kinda bad...so I think 2020 is NOT the time for Madrid...not unless Madrid City Hall are masochists.

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Madrid hasn't EVEN declared for 2020. I mean Paris 1992? 2008? 2012? :blink: Hello?

Madrid is NO Paris; JAS is gone; Spain's credit rating is kinda bad...so I don't think Madrid 2020 is going to happen.

I'm not saying Madrid 2020 is going to happen, I'm only talking about a possible bid. Even without JAS, Spain has good relations with South America (and also with China according to Spanish media).

If we could only talk about the officially declared bidding cities, then stop this thread now: Rome is the host city of the 2020 Summer Olympics! Not even Durban is official yet.

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Not even Durban is official yet.

For all intents and purposes, Durban will be in there. WHy do you think the RSA-NOC announced so quickly after the WC? They knew the spotlight was still on RSA and they seized the moment. (I would not have agreed with that timing, but then they didn't ask me.) Why do you think they built a brand-new stadium not just for football like the 7 other WC host-cities, but one that can accommodate a track? Certainly they're NOT blind to the fact that they are hosting both the IOC and UN Climate Change Summit as well next year? All those aren't accidental. I don't know about you, but to me those are all signs of being a serious, all-but-declared Olympic candidate city.

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I know the variables of the 2 orgs; but I think you are going too much by tradition here. Copenhagen 2009 showed that the IOC will seek new frontiers. July 2010 proved that RSA can host a gargantuan event; Zurich/December 2010 proved that the tried-and-true (at least for the 2018 race) will be wasted and the daring and near-quixotic for 2022 will prevail against all odds. I DON'T think it will be as hard as you are projecting it to be--despite what you say are the Asian-European aspirations. Asians know how to wait while Europeans may ALSO realize that they CAN'T grab everything. And having a would-be host right in your face (and remember the 2020 choice will be made in a southern setting--and you of all people, from Brazil--should know that) bodes very well for a southern African candidate. Why can't Durban and its allies also trade favors with votes in 2018, 2022 and beyond? And as Seb says, they have two prominent advocates in the EB or the IOC's inner circles.

My whole point is that Copenhagen 2009 won't be reproduced in 2013. In Copenhagen, 2 out of the 4 candidates were actually a bit pushy in terms of continental rotation, which left Rio heads up against Chicago. This allowed Rio to easily trade votes with the likely losers from Asia and Europe. In fact, accounts of the last days before the Copenhagen vote state that, in the end, the Rio bid team was actually focusing only in getting votes from Chicago, which might have led to the 1st round elimination. By the way, if Rio presented the 2016 application with the 2012 competition in place, I don't think it would even get past the application phase. The circumstances were very favorable.

This year we are going to see what PC and Munich are going to go for. However, neither of those will have a big impact on continental rotation for the WOGs. Asian hosts are still relatively rare and Europe has hosted in succession several times. There aren't enough candidates to host the WOGs anyway. My guess is that whatever agreements might come out of the 2018 election won't concern continental blocks, but the German and Korean NOCs. Besides, agreements will be made with several other groups as well and some will have precedence over others. I think the South Africans might cut deals, but it is uncertain whether they will be able to make a big difference in the race. A Japanese/ Korean agreement would be stronger and more interesting to both than any of this countries having a long term agreement with South Africa.

Besides, committing to your continental rotation spot is pretty much a "realpolitik" statement. Europe does not want for sure to establish a precedent of waiting more than 12 years, while Asia needs to establish one for waiting less than 20. In a scenario of an election in which we are left with Durban, Rome and Tokyo. If Rome or Tokyo are dropped off, they might be compelled to support the other to avoid facing stronger competition again 4 years later. After all, South Africa is the only viable African host country, while new competition from Asia and Europe is likely to emerge. My bet is that Durban is going to do well, but it will become some kind of PC of the SOGs, until continental rotation works in its favor. Don't forget that North American countries are very likely to present strong bids for 2024 and 2028.

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My bet is that Durban is going to do well, but it will become some kind of PC of the SOGs, until continental rotation works in its favor.

IMO, in the race for 2020, Durban could well or really badly. I mean, there are two options:

1) Not being shortlisted, which I think is quite possible even though it will be hosting the IOC Session. If the city's not technically prepared for the Games, the rest doesn't matter.

2) Being shortlisted, and then I can't imagine them losing in the first rounds unless there are strange deals involving Asia, Europe and America. But even with the deals, there would probably be another city to go out first.

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Not being shortlisted, which I think is quite possible even though it will be hosting the IOC Session. If the city's not technically prepared for the Games

Durban is more technically ready TODAY than either Rio or Chicago was when they were short-listed. The only major technical short-coming of Durban today is number of hotel rooms.

I can't imagine them losing in the first rounds unless there are strange deals involving Asia, Europe and America. But even with the deals, there would probably be another city to go out first.

That's exactly what nearly everyone thought about Chicago. However, I do agree that even if Durban is not awarded the games, they are unlikely to be eliminated first. For political reasons, the IOC will be very careful to avoid handing Durban the same humiliation they bestowed on Chicago.

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Durban is more technically ready TODAY than either Rio or Chicago was when they were short-listed. The only major technical short-coming of Durban today is number of hotel rooms.

Wow, without having seen Durban hosting concept how can anyone make comparison with Chicago and Rio plans.

I am personally waiting to see Durban's proposed masterplan and the accompanying accommodation and transport concept and see how all this fits with Durban long term development plan before passing any judgement on the feasibility of the bid.

But if you really want to make comparison with Rio and Chicago:

  • Durban current accommodation capacity in 3 to 5* hotels is about half of the one of Rio (and needless to say far less than Chicago)
  • McCormick Place (Chicago Convention Centre) available surface:297 300 square meters; ICC (Durban Convention Centre) available surface: less than 20,000 square meters (about a quarter to a fifth of the surface needed for IBC / MPC)

I am not saying that Durban 2020 cannot happen but it certainly won't be a shoe in and indeed, the challenge for Durban will be to make the initial cut.

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Any facts to support this?

This was reported by some of the Brazilian journalists covering the bid. I would have to really dig to find those news again, but basically they reported just after the result that the strategy in the final days before the vote was to target Chicago voters. This kind of remark was reported alongside the quote from Nuzman that the final result of the vote was extremely close to the predictions of the Rio bid team.

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I am personally waiting to see Durban's proposed masterplan and the accompanying accommodation and transport concept and see how all this fits with Durban long term development plan before passing any judgement on the feasibility of the bid.

Precisely - YOU are waiting

[*]Durban current accommodation capacity in 3 to 5* hotels is about half of the one of Rio (and needless to say far less than Chicago)

As I pointed out, this is clearly the single biggest technical hurdle Durban will face.

McCormick Place (Chicago Convention Centre) available surface:297 300 square meters; ICC (Durban Convention Centre) available surface: less than 20,000 square meters (about a quarter to a fifth of the surface needed for IBC / MPC)

Only half of McCormick was to be allocated to the IBC/MPC. The Center in Durban is actually 33,000 m2, as you need to include the exhibition center - still too little, but it is the largest conference facility in South Africa. A 100,000 m2 shell building is never the most challenging technical aspect of any bid.

Technically feasible, in my opinion, is a workable plan - the key aspects that cities struggle with are the stadium, the aquatics center, the water events, the transport plan, the accommodations. Of those, Durban has all in place, except for accommodations. In fact, if the games were to be held TODAY, Durban would be far more ready than Rio, technically.

This was reported by some of the Brazilian journalists covering the bid. I would have to really dig to find those news again, but basically they reported just after the result that the strategy in the final days before the vote was to target Chicago voters. This kind of remark was reported alongside the quote from Nuzman that the final result of the vote was extremely close to the predictions of the Rio bid team.

Got it - so it's just editorializing.

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Precisely - YOU are waiting

As I pointed out, this is clearly the single biggest technical hurdle Durban will face.

Only half of McCormick was to be allocated to the IBC/MPC. The Center in Durban is actually 33,000 m2, as you need to include the exhibition center - still too little, but it is the largest conference facility in South Africa. A 100,000 m2 shell building is never the most challenging technical aspect of any bid.

Technically feasible, in my opinion, is a workable plan - the key aspects that cities struggle with are the stadium, the aquatics center, the water events, the transport plan, the accommodations. Of those, Durban has all in place, except for accommodations. In fact, if the games were to be held TODAY, Durban would be far more ready than Rio, technically.

Got it - so it's just editorializing.

I think that saying that Durban would be more ready than Rio or Chicago now is big stretch.

Durban's airport has a capacity for only 7 million PAX/year while Rio's has 15 million and Chicago in one of the largest in the world. Besides, it is not clear to me how the airport is linked to the city rail system, which seems to be the backbone of the transport concept. They have probably solved this issue for the WC, but I don't know how.

The low number of hotel rooms is a major issue and it is probably the most difficult one to overcome. If your government is willing to spend, it can invest in transports, in stadia and even in building the OV and a media village. However, hotels are private investments that depend on demand that must be sustained in the long run. The only workaround for this issue is to have temporary hotel rooms provided mainly by cruise ships. Like Rio's, Durban's port will probably have to expand its capacity to host cruise ships. Besides, the addition of hotel rooms is likely to be done along the coastal areas to the north and south of the city. The north coast is not served by rail links as well. Is there a plan to stimulate the construction of new hotel rooms and is this plan targeting specific districts?

In Rio, the hotel issue had more to do with city planning than lack of demand. Due to security issues and to the distance to the tourist attractions, there was no interest to invest in hotels in the North (Maracanã cluster) and West (Deodoro cluster) sides of the city. In the South Side (Copacabana Cluster) and in Barra, there was a huge demand, but the limitations on the height and the construction area, combined with the high prices of the square meter, made those investments too risky. With the perspective of having full hotels during the low season in 2014 and 2016, due to the WC and the Olympics, those projects are popping up. By the way, Rio might not even need the cruise ships to achieve the IOC target by 2016.

So, for your statement to be correct, the only way Durban would be more ready is if no one would be allowed in to actually watch the SOG.

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Durban's airport has a capacity for only 7 million PAX/year while Rio's has 15 million and Chicago in one of the largest in the world. Besides, it is not clear to me how the airport is linked to the city rail system, which seems to be the backbone of the transport concept. They have probably solved this issue for the WC, but I don't know how.

There was a problem with the airport and transport in Durban for Spanish fans during the 2010 FIFA World Cup semifinals last summer. I wasn't really interested and didn't pay much attention, but I think they were late and missed the match because the airport wasn't well prepared as there were too many planes or something :unsure:

I'm sure there's someone here that knows more about it than me...

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There was a problem with the airport and transport in Durban for Spanish fans during the 2010 FIFA World Cup semifinals last summer. I wasn't really interested and didn't pay much attention, but I think they were late and missed the match because the airport wasn't well prepared as there were too many planes or something :unsure:

I'm sure there's someone here that knows more about it than me...

I have already mentioned that in my first post doubting Durban's open favoritism. The problem was that, since Durban did not fulfill the standards for accommodation, most of the fans stayed in Jo'burg and flew to Durban on the day of the match. However, the airport could not hold the incoming traffic of flights causing serious delays and the impossibility for new flights to land due to unavailability of space for parking more aircrafts.

This has led to many officials and fans arriving late or even missing the flights. Since this kind of problem is likely to occur in some of the host cities in Brazil in 2014, the National Civil Aviation Agency (Anac) is considering closing the main airports for executive aircrafts on WC match days in those cities.

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Yeah, from what I read--it seems those were the glitches in Durban's new airport...which really could happen in any newly opened airport.

Re cruise ships, with behemoths having 2,000+ cabins, Durban could easily add 15,000+ rooms for those two weeks with seven or eight of the behemoths...and I think with new port facilities planned, they are actually preparing for that solution.

And if Japan puts forth Hiroshima, then it looks like it might just be a Durban-Rome battle. I'd still give Durban the edge.

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Precisely - YOU are waiting

As I pointed out, this is clearly the single biggest technical hurdle Durban will face.

Only half of McCormick was to be allocated to the IBC/MPC. The Center in Durban is actually 33,000 m2, as you need to include the exhibition center - still too little, but it is the largest conference facility in South Africa. A 100,000 m2 shell building is never the most challenging technical aspect of any bid.

Technically feasible, in my opinion, is a workable plan - the key aspects that cities struggle with are the stadium, the aquatics center, the water events, the transport plan, the accommodations. Of those, Durban has all in place, except for accommodations. In fact, if the games were to be held TODAY, Durban would be far more ready than Rio, technically.

So I understand you have seen some plans. Good for you.

May I just remind you that Durban, according to city manager Mike Sutcliffe (Durban going for the gold), does not have the aquatics center contrary to your claim.

ICC is usually mentioned both as potential host for MPC and some sport events when the current capacity is not sufficient for the MPC alone (Mc Cormick was also hosting 12 Olympic Sports). So it would have to be made clearer whether ICC is intended for both sport and MPC and how this can be achieved.

Transport plan: I will have to trust you when you say that Durban has it in place but the current public transport infrastructure of Durban seems average at best.

Again, I am not saying that Durban cannot come up with a workable plan for 2020: I don't have a clue.

However claiming that Durban is currently technically "far more ready than Rio", seems really really far stretched...

I'll be glad to be proven wrong when Durban unveils its plan.

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I couldn't agree more with you. Also, the IOC didn't accept the bids from other third (or further) cities like Leipzig, Lille or Seville - and I think the three of them are safer, better known and, probably, with less organization issues than Durban. Of course I'm not ruling out Durban, but it's not the same case as Rio. Would have the Games been awarded to Brazil if they had bid with a third city like Brasilia, Belo Horizonte, Recife, Salvador (Bahia), etc. only because of being South American? I don't think so...

Really? Cities like Seville, Leipzig & Lille (which is merely a fraction of the size of Durban, btw) are "safer, better known & have less 'organizational issues'" than Durban? :blink: Think again. With the exception of MAYBE Seville.. Leipzig & Lille are nowhere on the radar screen & neither of them are nowhere near the size & infrastructure of Durban.

And why do you incessantly make this apples to oranges comparison. Like I've said before, all those cities are a fraction of the size of Durban (especially Lille) & are in countries that have already hosted the Olympic Games. Again, the *Africa Factor* would be a HUGE plus for a Durban bid.

And you're right, Recife & Salvador wouldn't cut it. Just like Port Elizabeth in South Africa wouldn't cut it, either. Lets keep things in perspective, shall we.

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For me, Asian NOCs will tend to support Tokyo even harder this time.

Durban might win and 2020 is a good opportunity to do so, but it won't be easy. The IOC is not going to jump at it, as many people seem to think. Europe and espcially Asia will not let it go so easily this time.

But you're assuming that Tokyo is going to bid. As of late, Tokyo hasn't even made a peep about 2020. And the president of the JOC wants to advocate Hiroshima to bid if Tokyo doesn't. If the JOC were dumb enough to go with Hiroshima, that would automatically give Durban a big boost before the 2020 race has even officially begun. Hiroshima would be the Annecy of 2020, followed by Rome (Munich) & Durban (PyeongChang).

And no one here seems to think that the IOC would "jump" for Durban. Only analyzing the situation with the potential candidates that have made noises about 2020 thus far. But you seem to think that the IOC would jump at Tokyo (which hasn't even declared any attempt) or Europe simply because Durban doesn't have the "appeal" of Cape Town or Johannesburg & doesn't have enough experience.

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I too, think that on paper (and in retrospect) Rio seems to have been in a better position to make a stronger case for the Games coming to their city than Durban has currently. There is no doubt that Durban will have an uphill climb, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. But what Durban lacks in not hosting a games like the PanAms, it makes up with the country's recent experience and success from the World Cup.

Let's not forget, Rio was not taken too serious in the early rounds as well. Rome and Tokyo will obviously be in a much stronger position to make their case when it comes to a technical ability, but sentiment is what has ruled the day recently, and we will just have to wait and see what South Africa can pull out of their hat in terms of marketing and strategy.

2020 is different than 2016 with respect to Europe opening up to stake claim this time around (since it is not back-to-back with London). It won't be like 2012, but I am sure there will be at least two European cities short listed, opposed to Madrid being the solo bid in 2016. I think there will be many IOC members comfortable voting for a European city this time around. 2020 will indeed be interesting to follow, and the 2018 decision can certainly change things as well (especially if PC wins).

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I don't want to sound sentimental about the potential bid of Istanbul for 2020 SOG but Istanbul will have a great chance and it may be one of the frontrunners. Because there are huge concrete changes in the city in terms of infastructure and sports facilities. Let me inform you about the latest developments in the city.

1- The worst aspect of Istabul bids were infastructure and traffic organization and city is like under construction till 5-6 years and 4 new metro lines are about to be finished, 1 one of them will bind Asian and Anatolian side under the Bosphorus and tunnels have finished now they build the stations and other over the ground stuff.

this is the main line starts from the furthest point in European side and ends at the end of Anatolian side. It is 74 kms long. This will be the main line and other lines is getting connected to this line. The name of the line is Marmaray. This line opens on 23th of October 2013.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:i7JrzJ9Tf-0BwM:http://kentvedemiryolu.com/diger/marmaray_projesi1.jpg&t=1

this is another line the line between Yenikapı-Havalimanı(Airport) has been actively working for 20 years and the other line that connects every major centre to the other side of European side is about to be finished. %80 of that line is working for the last 10 years. Now they are building 3 stations to connect these two lines. In yenikapı both lines will be linked to Marmaray.

http://http://img03.blogcu.com/images/m/k/a/mkaslan/ana_omurga_1239567016.jpg

And also there is this line which is important for Olympic Park and Village. This connects Olympic Village and Stadium to the airport and city center with the links to other systems mentioned above. This line opens at the end of this year. The name of the line is Hacıosman-Yenikapı line.

http://img2.blogcu.com/images/m/k/a/mkaslan/untitled.jpg

And even though i oppose, they are starting to build third bosphoruz bridge.

Anyway shortly there will be no traffic and public transportation problem in 2013.

There are also 2 metro lines works actively right now.

2- A new football stadium has been built which has a direct link with Hacıosman-Yenikapı line. Even a new station has been built under the stadium and it is theoritically connected with Olympic Park and Village under the ground right now.

http://fotogaleri.ntvmsnbc.com/arena-solene-hazir.html?position=6

http://fotogaleri.ntvmsnbc.com/havadan-enfes-gorunuyor.html?position=2

3- Also with the new metro lines the possible venues will be all connected to each other by public transport.

4- Istanbul was the European CApital of Culture this year and it was awarded that Istanbul is now European Capital of Sports. In 2012 World Indoor Athletics Championship and Swimming Championships will be organized in Istanbul. This year Istanbul hosted World Basketball Championship.

everything seems better than ever actually right now. I think Istanbul will be shortlisted and with a new campaign, logo and marketing team it may have a chance to host the games.

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Really? Cities like Seville, Leipzig & Lille (which is merely a fraction of the size of Durban, btw) are "safer, better known & have less 'organizational issues'" than Durban? :blink: Think again. With the exception of MAYBE Seville.. Leipzig & Lille are nowhere on the radar screen & neither of them are nowhere near the size & infrastructure of Durban.

And why do you incessantly make this apples to oranges comparison. Like I've said before, all those cities are a fraction of the size of Durban (especially Lille) & are in countries that have already hosted the Olympic Games. Again, the *Africa Factor* would be a HUGE plus for a Durban bid.

And you're right, Recife & Salvador wouldn't cut it. Just like Port Elizabeth in South Africa wouldn't cut it, either. Lets keep things in perspective, shall we.

Well, not now, because Durban is becoming famous among Olympic fans, but if some years ago, say 2004, someone asked me where Leipzig was, I would have said Germany, but if they asked me where Durban was, I would have had my doubts. Durban is bigger, yes, I didn't say anything about the size but about the importance of the city in the country. And I haven't been to any of those cities, but any of them seems safer than Durban. It's like comparing London to Rio. Of course, you can visit London and be kidnapped, but that's more likely to happen in Rio.

If you don't want to compare Durban to Leipzig (which is OK, I know Durban is much bigger), then shall we compare Durban to Rio? Rio de Janeiro could have also hosted the first Games in Brazil and South America in 2012, and yet it wasn't shortlisted - and the Games went to a country and a city that had already hosted twice. So the Africa factor may not be that important if Durban doesn't do its work well.

And I do think Durban can be compared to Brasilia, Salvador, etc. In fact, Durban's population is only over 700,000 higher than the population of these cities. Port Elizabeth's is almost 2 million lower. Also, Durban is South Africa's 3rd city, so is Salvador in Brazil and Seville in Spain. Port Elizabeth is not among the first five cities in South Africa, Salvador and Brasilia are Brazil's 3rd and 4th (always in terms of population).

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