Athan Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 Doha will be clever enough to realize that if Rio got 2016 saying South America had never hosted and Durban gets 2020 saying Africa has never hosted*, all they have to do to get 2024 is saying that neither the Middle East nor any Muslim country has ever hosted. They won't like being less than South America or Africa. But it seems they need to be able to host in summer. In other words, I think they won't bid for 2020. And BTW, Durban must be happy if they don't because that would leave Doha's candidate spot free. I don't really see the IOC rejecting again a project with a technical score of 7 (better than Rio and probably** better than Durban) if there aren't many stronger applicants, like for 2016. *I'm not saying Durban doesn't deserve the Games, but I wouldn't like them to say "look at this map: Africa's the only continent with no Games", and specially right after Rio, who played the same card. **Please note the use of the word "probably". I don't mean they'll score less than Doha for sure, it's just my opinion. I don't even know how the projects will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 Doha will be clever enough to realize that if Rio got 2016 saying South America had never hosted and Durban gets 2020 saying Africa has never hosted*, all they have to do to get 2024 is saying that neither the Middle East nor any Muslim country has ever hosted. They won't like being less than South America or Africa. But it seems they need to be able to host in summer. In other words, I think they won't bid for 2020. And BTW, Durban must be happy if they don't because that would leave Doha's candidate spot free. I don't really see the IOC rejecting again a project with a technical score of 7 (better than Rio and probably** better than Durban) if there aren't many stronger applicants, like for 2016. *I'm not saying Durban doesn't deserve the Games, but I wouldn't like them to say "look at this map: Africa's the only continent with no Games", and specially right after Rio, who played the same card. **Please note the use of the word "probably". I don't mean they'll score less than Doha for sure, it's just my opinion. I don't even know how the projects will be. I think the Middle East card is kinda hokey and phoney. It is one part of Asia. The "Arab" world thing is neither here NOR there either. As for "muslim," well, Sarajevo already took care of that. I don't see that the Protestants, Buddhists, Hindi and Sikhs have played their 'denomination' card...as it really has no relevance in the Olympic spheres--which was a "pagan" event to begin with and with the lighting of the flame in Olympia and invoking a non-existent deity, "Apollo," still one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athan Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 I think the Middle East card is kinda hokey and phoney. It is one part of Asia. The "Arab" world thing is neither here NOR there either. As for "muslim," well, Sarajevo already took care of that. I don't see that the Protestants, Buddhists, Hindi and Sikhs have played their 'denomination' card...as it really has no relevance in the Olympic spheres--which was a "pagan" event to begin with and with the lighting of the flame in Olympia and invoking a non-existent deity, "Apollo," still one. But Bosnia & Herzegovina is a moderate Muslim country, the same as Turkey. And yeah, none of these religions will say the Games have never been held in... but you know there are several Muslim bigwigs that like showing off and love to flash their cultures and countries around (i.e. Qatar, UAE, etc.). Just in case of misunderstandings, I'm talking about the sheikhs, not about the whole countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pure facts Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 So...NO visits, NO advertising...but pick a city that will host your billion-dollar extravaganza 7 years hence?? Now why didn't I think of such simplistic logic?? Sounds like FIFA reasoning in picking Qatar!! IOC: open bid process (questionnaire, bid books, evaluation commission report, final presentation to IOC session: all public), detailed bid books, detailed (though should be clearer and less diplomatic in its evaluation) evaluation commission report, 2 full days of Technical briefing for the IOC members, 1 hour presentation at the session including Q&A, final report by evaluation commission and vote broadcasted live FIFA: opaque bid process (questionnaire not public, bid books generally not public), wishy-washy evaluation commission report, 30 an hour presentation no questions, vote behind closed doors Baron: "no need for bid process, Durban will get them, especially if they book billboard in front of the IOC Session" Indeed your logic is superb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 Baron: "no need for bid process, Durban will get them, especially if they book billboard in front of the IOC Session" Stop putting words in my mouth. I NEVER said that. YOU made that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Well, we have to look at the bid process as a whole. The problem about Korea, Russia and other relatively developed nations bidding is that their cities would be more likely to get good scores during the application phase. Madrid and Tokyo got the highest scores in the 2016 application phase, so it would be hard to assume that they wouldn't be in the shortlist. Doha could socre very high on the application phase though, though I think this is not very likely due to the accommodation and the airport issues. Again though, you're assuming that all of those countries will be presenting bids. It remains to be seen if they will since the Japanese (Russian or South Korean) capital(s), with only what, just 8 months to go before the IOC 2020 deadline, has not made a single musical note that they are. Not to mention that South Korea is totally preoccupied with PyeongChang's 2018's THIRD attempt, & Russia now has it's plate totally full not only with Sochi 2014 but with the World Cup 2018. So I doubt that they want to over extend themselves that much, & any IOC preliminary evaluation would certainly cite those challenges in any proposed Russian Summer Olympic Bid. And the airport is a non-issue, as has been repeated to you more than once by others. You don't think that within 10 years time that issue wouldn't be taken care of, especially when the airport was brand-new at the time of the semi-finals. And it's not like the IOC is afraid of challenges anyway. They did afterall, choose the most transport complex pre-existing plan of the 4 bidding cities for 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dysan1 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 That's not true. FIFA requires quite an extensive hotel infrastructure for any city hosting WC matches. The benchmark is that it has enough hotel bedrooms equivalent to arounf 1/3 of the city stadium capacity inside a 100km radius of the stadium. However, FIFA can bypass this requirement if another city provides enough accommodation and can be reached in less than 1:30. That's one of the reasons that contributed to the concentration of the accommodation packages in Jo'burg. In Brazil, we are going to have the same kind of issue with most of the cities hosting WC matches. According to plans, at least half of the cities won't comply with the requirements for accommodation. This will force the division of the country in 4 clusters, in which 2 of them will have a primary city as supporting the others (Brasilia and São Paulo). In the Northeast and Southeast clusters, Rio and the Northeastern capitals will split the burden. Currently only Rio, Salvador and SP make the cut for accommodation for 2014. Neither the airport or the accommodation issues are impossible to overcome, but they are present. The Durban bid team must figure out how to work them out and present it clearly to the IOC. The main poit is that, whatever the solution for those issues, it might have an impact on the overall games concept. For instance, if additional accommodation is placed too far from the Olympic Park, additional transport investments might be needed. Its well and true to think and look at things from a simple narrow view, but reality is much more complex than you allude to. Durban and its 100km radius has more than enough beds to cover the requirements you mention above. For you this lack of accomodation is why people were not based in Durban and Cape Town, but yet again you are incorrect. Look at the way stadiums were spread out in SA, they were heavily concentrated within an easy drive of Joburg, which most of us in SA were against. Why as a fan would you base yourself away from that hub and have to constantly travel in? you would not. As i have said before you talk in circles on issues and refuse stubbornly to listen to other reason. Kinda sad dont you think? or is your english grasp a bit poor? I am just asking? I will highlight what you seem to ignore in the Durban thread from an accomodation concentration point of view, and where new clusters are planned as part of major new developments that are currently underway. If this still confuses you, eish i dunno. And i am not going to talk airport with you again as clearly this is your "passion" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanisMinor Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 So, Durban would be fighting for the last spot, like Rio did. Not sure what you base this on. I am pretty sure there is no "set" number of candidate cities - all cities that are judged technically capable advance to the candidate stage. I do agree that at least 1 European city will be on the candidate list, and it is highly probably that Tokyo will be there too. I am convinced that is SA submits a bid, their city will be there too. Count on in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Technically, that is correct that there is no 'set' number of candidates to be selected. And we can see that in some races where there have been the different # of 3, 4 or up to 5 candidates selected. And if all applicants meet the technical benchmark, in theory, all can go through & be accepted as candidates (I guess it could also work in reverse to, whereas what if no applicant meets the threshold). However, it seems that the IOC though, would like to keep the red-tape & fuss to a minimum (that's why the short-list process was introduced in the first place). For 2002, 2004, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014 & 2016 the applicant list was cut pretty much in half. But look at 2018; since there was only 3 applicants, the IOC decided to go ahead with all 3 to move on as candidates. I'd bet had 2018 had at least as many candidates as 2010 & 2014, Annecy definitely would've been cut. Yes, there's no set #, but I seriously doubt if the IOC were faced again with 9,10 or 11 applicants like they did for 2004, 2008 & 2012, that they'd included them all simply because they all reached the minimal technical criteria. I'm sure then the IOC would make further cuts (ala Doha 2016) in order to keep the process from getting too cumbersome & exhausting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aluz Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 The fact is there has never been more than 5 candidate cities and in the last race the IOC has cut it to 4, even though 5 of them met the benchmark. Durban has a very compact plan, but misses important infrastructure to host, so I wouldn't bet it to score high. The IOC is probably going to score it quite close to the benchmark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulsa Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 However, it seems that the IOC though, would like to keep the red-tape & fuss to a minimum (that's why the short-list process was introduced in the first place). For 2002, 2004, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014 & 2016 the applicant list was cut pretty much in half. But look at 2018; since there was only 3 applicants, the IOC decided to go ahead with all 3 to move on as candidates. I'd bet had 2018 had at least as many candidates as 2010 & 2014, Annecy definitely would've been cut. It's impossible to CIO to refuse Annecy like Bid... It's like refuse England, Italia or Spain to a football world cup. France is one of the 3 more important winter nation about economy or capacity to host... And the level of infrastructure is very high... If Annecy have been some difficult it's only because in first time they purpose to many sites, not because they can't host winter games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanisMinor Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 The fact is there has never been more than 5 candidate cities and in the last race the IOC has cut it to 4, even though 5 of them met the benchmark. Durban has a very compact plan, but misses important infrastructure to host, so I wouldn't bet it to score high. The IOC is probably going to score it quite close to the benchmark. Yup. Sure. Bookmark this. In 3 years time you can come back and see how wrong you were. Your continued insistence of "Africa is crap" in the face of multiple posters refuting your points with facts makes you sound a bit like Michelle. Oh, wait, I see you're from France too... hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 The fact is there has never been more than 5 candidate cities and in the last race the IOC has cut it to 4, even though 5 of them met the benchmark. Actually, of the recent races, there SIX finalists each for the 1992 and 1996 Summer races: 1992 - Amsterdam, Barcelona, Belgrade, Birmingham, Brisbane and Paris 1996 - Athens, Atlanta, Belgrade, Manchester, Melbourne and Toronto The 1992 Winter race had SEVEN candidates: Albertville, Anchorage, Berchtesgaden, Cortina, Falun, Lillehammer and Sofia (which is really too much). Those were the glory days of the IOC when they had cities feeding off of their hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulsa Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 The 1992 Winter race had SEVEN candidates: Albertville, Anchorage, Berchtesgaden, Cortina, Falun, Lillehammer and Sofia (which is really too much). But when you are bids from USA, Germany, Italia, France, Sweden, Norway and Bugaria, it's very difficult to fail one or more to this countries... Each country could host WoG and since 1992, France, Norway, Usa and Italia had host Wog... Except maybe for Bulgaria but the other countries are major winter nation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 But when you are bids from USA, Germany, Italia, France, Sweden, Norway and Bugaria, it's very difficult to fail one or more to this countries... Each country could host WoG and since 1992, France, Norway, Usa and Italia had host Wog... Except maybe for Bulgaria but the other countries are major winter nation... Tulsa, book a bed in a monastery for February 2018. I am sure there will be a few vacant slots in the beeautiful Alps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulsa Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Tulsa, book a bed in a monastery for February 2018. I am sure there will be a few vacant slots in the beeautiful Alps. If CIO would like more than 3 cities bids for the Wog in the future, I think they need to comeback with realistic and authentic bid, not only big city without Wog Atmosphere... Because some countries like Norway, Sweden, Austria couldn't comeback with a bid in the future. Where is this atmosphere in Turin or Vancouver ??? Wog and Sog are very different and you can't have the same rules to select a bid... Remember Lillehammer, a little city but the greatest games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Remember Lillehammer, a little city but the greatest games... Nope. The greatest Winter Games were Salt Lake 2002. Lillehammer? Village Olympics? Lake Placid did it twice before!! Lillehammer just had cuter trolls, Vetti and Lapps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Rols Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Where is this atmosphere in Turin or Vancouver ??? Where was the atmosphere in Albertville? Spread out a bit thinly, by all accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron-pierreIV Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Where was the atmosphere in Albertville? Spread out a bit thinly, by all accounts. Grenoble is an ugly, grey, industrial city by Tyrolean standards!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulsa Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Grenoble and Albertville was in the mountain not like Turin or Vancouver... but I'm according to you Grenoble isn't very beautiful city but in 1968 the city was very different than now, there was less people than now and less industries, and there is a mountain atmosphere and authentic... Not like Vancouver and Turin... The greatest Winter Games were Salt Lake 2002. Are you american? Salt Lake city games are successful but the city isn't very a good choice, Usa had corrupt CIO to win the right to host this games... And the city of Mormon aren't a good showroom for USA... Denver, Anchorage are more interesting, but for the future Usa has the choice and is good thing ! I hope to see a new bid from USA. But to comeback to Lillehammer, this games was magic and with a ecological aspect not like Vancouver or Sotchi... Sotchi about this aspect is a shame... but I'm afraid to see the next game loose their authentic aspect and respectful idea... For that you have need some countries like Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Austria... And if the CIO continue to give the games to cities without this aspect I think everybody will loose something... Germany have better than Munich to purpose... Look France we have prefer to choose Annecy than Nice because Annecy is more in this authentic aspect and respect... The world have need something better than the latest games... Lot of sportsman have been frustrated to Vancouver... Sorry, I'm comeback on the subject 2020 short list Do you think if Germany or Korea loose 2018 they comeback to 2020 with Berlin or Pusan ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Rols Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Where is this atmosphere in Turin or Vancouver ??? Whatever shortcomings Vancouver may have had, spirit and atmosphere wasn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulsa Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Whatever shortcomings Vancouver may have had, spirit and atmosphere wasn't one of them. You have this spirit in Whistler, but a city like Vancouver is to big to have really this spirit and atmosphere, the authenticity for me references to original spirit like St Moritz, Garmish, Chamonix, Lake placid or Innsbruck... Maybe I'm wrong about this concept but I hope to see in the future WOG more magical and in city less big than Turin or Munich in Europa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Rols Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 You have this spirit in Whistler, but a city like Vancouver is to big to have really this spirit and atmosphere, You think so? By all accunts, Vancouver rivalled Lillehammer and Sydney as among Olympic cities that have most visisibly and joyfully embraced the Olympic spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stir.ts Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Salt Lake city games are successful but the city isn't very a good choice, If you like winter sports and incredible-outrageous-fantastic conditions and geography...you will love Salt Lake. If you don't like Salt Lake, you may not know much about it. DRY baby..........The Greatest Snow on Earth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Salt Lake city games are successful but the city isn't very a good choice, Usa had corrupt CIO to win the right to host this games... Saying Salt Lake City wasn't a good choice for the Winter Olympics, is like saying Annecy, Munich or Innsbruck aren't good choices either. You obviously don't know much about SLC other than it's "mormon". And as far as the "corruption" scandal goes, it's been discussed countless times already that SLC didn't need to "bribe", since it was the obvious choice out of all the 2002 candidates. And it's not like other countries never bribed before (I'm sure you could include France in there, too), it was just unfortunate for SLC that they were the ones that got caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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