LIVE Presentations and Vote Discussion

[Luffy]

If Russia or Qatar can't host and FIFA come cap in hand to us, I sincerely hope we tell the corrupt ones to stick their tournament where the sun does not shine.

I'm 100% sure Russia will stage the tournament, no problem.

Qatar seems indeed, a more risky buisness

[Olympian2004]

At least Franz Beckenbauer seems to be a FIFA executive committee member who is not overly happy with the decision.

Interview with the tabloid Bild (in German)

Here's my translation of the interview:

BILD: Are you happy with this result?

Beckenbauer: "I would be happy if we had left this decision to future generations. At the time of the World Cup in Qatar, I'll be 77..."

BILD: ...and still younger than many of your FIFA colleagues.

Beckenbauer: "That's true. It was a mistake to decide about the World Cups of 2018 and 2022 on the same day. But now it's too late."

BILD: Did FIFA expect the harsh criticism?

Beckenbauer: "That was absolutely expectable. There were also concerns about South Africa -- but in the end, we experienced a fantastic World Cup there. Qatar has won the hosting rights, and it deserves a fair chance as first World Cup host in the Middle East. They will get this done."

BILD: It's still crazy to play football at a heat of more than 40 degrees Celsius.

Beckenbauer: "One should think about a different solution. In January and February they have pleasant 25 degrees Celsius there."

BILD: A World Cup in winter?

Beckenbauer: "Yes, why not? The match schedules of the big Western European leagues would have to be changed in 2012. But this change wouldn't be too grave. It would be an alternative for putting a huge effort into air-conditioning stadia and fan zones.“

BILD: Was Qatar also your candidate?

Beckenbauer: "I won't give away any internal information from the voting. I was astonished that Australia was eliminated already in the first round of voting. The same for England's elimination in the first round, although it had got the best marks in the bid examination for 2018. Russia will be a strong host, however -- I'm certain about that."

BILD: Due to the corruption scandals within FIFA and Qatar, Sepp Blatter is getting more and more under fire. Would you be willing to become FIFA president at a pinch?

Beckenbauer: "Heaven forbid! My term of office in the executive will end in March 2011, and it will stay that way. I'm looking forward to the time after."

Even if Beckenbauer commends the Qatar bid, I get the feeling that he voted at least for the USA in the final round of voting for 2022. But I ask myself: If he was surprised that Australia and England got eliminated so early despite their strong bids, why didn't he vote for them? Either he's making dishonest compliments and never was a fan of those two bids -- or he was simply too naive and relied on England and Australia making it to the next rounds of voting even without his vote.

[Guest Jensen1981]

Again, we all know already that the 'best' bids don't always win or have to win. Was Beijing the "best bid"? No. Was Sochi?? No. Was Rio? No (& Rio skipped over a technically higher scored, Doha). Was London? On the technically level, no it wasn't. I think since FIFA hasn't really demonstrated this kind of 'vote' before is why the scrutiny is getting around. Russia shouldn't be a shock. Qatar, however.. Well, that's on FIFA's plate now.

And don't forget, only 4 years ago the FIFA World Cup was staged in Germany okay?? Okay, England and South-Africa both lost from Germany then, but it still IS Germany. And we're talking constantly about the frikkin' money. But I thinkkk South Africa was financially the poorest bid . Did we say that with South Africa? That MONEY was ruling the South African bidding process? I don't think so. The opposite sounds were heard: South Africa is financially too risky, they won't finish the stadiums in time. BUT FIFA boss Sepp Blatter believed in this developing nation.

Now about the larger European Championship 2016, with 24 teams and 8 groups.......perhaps England should have made a bid for this new European Championship? Or what about a youth World Cup U-21? Or are these tournaments too 'backward' for England? Does Brittannia still think they rule the waves? It's arrogant. That island over there needs to react with a bit more humiliation, just like the grown up guys from the Holland Belgium bid did.

Also dear friends in the western world: Things are changing on this planet. North America, Western Europe......they start getting protectionistic, xenophobic..and it times it scares me. I think Rio earned both the OS 2016 and WC 2014! That continent got robbed TOO many times! I loved the WC 2010 in South Africa. OS 2008 in Beijing was awesome! The Commonwealth Games in India, besides the bad news, resulted in some great sportive moments. Russia earned the OW 2014. I want to know Sochi better! And they deserve the WC 2018. And Qatar? I think this tournament could set a friendlier picture of the Middle East.

Summarizing: It's time to look over our own frontiers and welcome the 'new world' with more open arms.

[Olympian2004]

You can't use that "New frontier" and "tolerance" thing as excuse for everything. The main problem is that with Qatar, not only the richest but also the technically weakest bid won. Additionally, the result for at least the 2018 election was obviously already known before the voting even took place. Putin's cancellation of his visit to the bid presentation in Zurich was only a part of a big "stage production". We know the (dangerous) power of that man and the oligarchs and magnates with which he deals with. Then there are the strong personal connections between Blatter and Qatar (Qatar helped him to defend his presidency in 2002 by providing him, for example, a private jet with which he campaigned at football federations throughout the world), which obviously led them to return the favour now and hand them the World Cup right on the first bid.

You can talk about "new frontiers" as often as you like: But for me, this whole election stinks. Although Russia is a more justified and appropriate World Cup host, I don't have the impression that everything happened correctly in their case.

[Triffle]

Also dear friends in the western world: Things are changing on this planet. North America, Western Europe......they start getting protectionistic, xenophobic..and it times it scares me. I think Rio earned both the OS 2016 and WC 2014! That continent got robbed TOO many times! I loved the WC 2010 in South Africa. OS 2008 in Beijing was awesome! The Commonwealth Games in India, besides the bad news, resulted in some great sportive moments. Russia earned the OW 2014. I want to know Sochi better! And they deserve the WC 2018. And Qatar? I think this tournament could set a friendlier picture of the Middle East.

Summarizing: It's time to look over our own frontiers and welcome the 'new world' with more open arms.

Your a freakin idiot. Most people have no problem with the concept of new frontiers. But you still need deserving and credible candidates. I don't think many would disagree that Beijing, RSA and Rio were all fantastic decisions and probably the favourites of non-bias members during their respective bids on this forum. Sochi and Russia may not have been favourites but the general consensus has been that both are justifiable winners. Qatar though, is not a credible candidatate. I have no problems awarding events to new frontiers including the Middle East; but fair processes must occur and there must be legitimate candidates. There are so many reasons why Qatar is not a legitimate candidate and now unfortunately host. A joint bid between the various micro states of the Persian Gulf would perhaps have been a justafiable host. But not Qatar alone.

And implying that Delhi was anything other than a shambolic disaster clearly demonstrates your naivety. What great sporting moments? Almsot all of the elite athletes of the Commonwealth didnt even attend and the athletes that did entertained miinute crowds in virtually empty stadiums.

[Rob2012]

And don't forget, only 4 years ago the FIFA World Cup was staged in Germany okay?? Okay, England and South-Africa both lost from Germany then, but it still IS Germany. And we're talking constantly about the frikkin' money. But I thinkkk South Africa was financially the poorest bid . Did we say that with South Africa? That MONEY was ruling the South African bidding process? I don't think so. The opposite sounds were heard: South Africa is financially too risky, they won't finish the stadiums in time. BUT FIFA boss Sepp Blatter believed in this developing nation.

Now about the larger European Championship 2016, with 24 teams and 8 groups.......perhaps England should have made a bid for this new European Championship? Or what about a youth World Cup U-21? Or are these tournaments too 'backward' for England? Does Brittannia still think they rule the waves? It's arrogant. That island over there needs to react with a bit more humiliation, just like the grown up guys from the Holland Belgium bid did.

Wow, talk about missing the point ENTIRELY. England aren't unhappy because a new frontier won, they're unhappy because of the bidding process and FIFA's lack of transpancy.

Let's examine the facts rather than resorting to insult shall we?

Firstly, the IOC were big enough to be able to seperate our press from our bid when the BBC uncovered vote selling prior to London 2012's eventual victory. FIFA should have been too. It's not the BBC's fault that FIFA have acted irresponsibly in the face of the allegations.

Secondly, it's quite extrordinary for FIFA to take offence because a free country uncovered corruption within their organisation. Yeah, their timing wasn't great, but does anyone slam media organisations for publishing data, allegatations, undercover reports, new scandals etc on the eve of a vote in Parliament if MPs - democratically elected MPs - are involved? It amazes me why the unelected clique at the top of world football feels they should be treated any differently.

More than enough has gone wrong so far for this vote to be very much tainted - which is possibly unfair on the winners but inevitable. The BBC's allegations are merely the latest in a long list of problems at FIFA.

This vote alone has seen:

• lack of transparency unless pressure is put on in publishing firstly the rules and secondly the evalaution reports
  
• suspension of members accepting bribes for votes
  
• nobody knowing A FEW DAYS OUT whether we had 22 or 23 voting members
  
• rumours of collusion and from what I've read a wholly inadequate internal investigation into the rumours
  
• FIFA members showing their unwillingness to seperate a nation's press from its bid
  
• bids fearing using official channels of complaint when they believe they have cause to
  
• at least three members who've been involved in serious financial scandals still in the ExCo because they support Blatter (Warner, Valke and Leoz)
  
• the stupidity of running two bidding contests in tandem and expecting the bids to not be tempted to swap votes (WHICH EVEN FIFA HAVE ADMITTED WAS A MISTAKE) etc etc etc
  

We can now add to that a vote which was influenced by Blatter's speech prior to it, a pool of members far too small and with too much pressure on them, the inablitity for the vote to be publicised (the IOC televise their vote). It was so shoddy it's beyond belief!

If you think all of the above is fine and the way a body like FIFA should run its affairs continue to label us English as arrogant, but I hope knowing the facts you have some sympathy with our anger (I'm bemused why your country doesn't feel the same way about all this given how hot on transparency the Dutch are).

England and the British press really have nothing to lose in going for the jugular given that, under current rules, the country wouldn't be able to host again till 2030. I also wonder how much money countries like England push towards FIFA every year and how much they'd miss it. There's a lot that can be done to topple the supposedly self-governing clique at the top of the world game. It's about time the biggest footballing nations on Earth realise how unhealthy the current state of affairs is and does something about it.

Our defeat in this shoddiest of processes should be the impetus for a fresh wave of investigations against FIFA, led by organisations like the BBC, not the start of an internal blame game, and certainly not any reason for know-it-alls like you to start throwing around insults like "arrogant" and "xenophobic" when it's clear that has nothing to do with it.

[Rob2012]

Acting Football Association chairman Roger Burden has withdrawn his application for the permanent post over England's 2018 World Cup bid failure.

Burden, who was appointed in May, says he can no longer trust Fifa members after England lost out to Russia.

"I recognise that an important part of the role is liaison with Fifa, our global governing body," said Burden.

"I'm not prepared to deal with people whom I cannot trust and I've withdrawn my candidacy," added the 64-year-old.

The FA's unhappiness at the 2018 decision is also expected to lead to moves to scrap plans for a friendly international against Thailand in June, as the match was organised in an attempt to gain support for England's bid.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/9256772.stm

-----

It's a start I suppose, but it's not going to hurt FIFA much.

[arwebb]

Now about the larger European Championship 2016, with 24 teams and 8 groups.......perhaps England should have made a bid for this new European Championship? Or what about a youth World Cup U-21? Or are these tournaments too 'backward' for England? Does Brittannia still think they rule the waves? It's arrogant. That island over there needs to react with a bit more humiliation, just like the grown up guys from the Holland Belgium bid did.

A

Who the hell do you think you are, Jensen? You're so xenophobic you must be hankering for FIFA membership! The only arrogance I'm reading is coming from your keyboard and it's pathetic.

[arwebb]

All of which just underlies my point that the relationship between the FA and FIFA is now almost certainly damaged beyond repair!

For the time being, possibly. Mark Palios, the former FA chief executive, was on the money when he said it's for the next generation now. I certainly do not believe you will find one person within English football who is prepared to work with FIFA in its current regime. They are completely and utterly discredited.

Agreed,but England need to find important allies to help them do this.(We certainly won't find them in Russia or Qatar). You know,I've come to the conclusion that the England bid team really should have picked up on what Jack Warner said a while ago.He said that everyone hated England,and I think he was referring primarily to FIFA.Of course we all dismissed this with the contempt that most of his remarks deserve but I actually think he was being quite candid with us for once and it was amply borne out in yesterday's vote.Instead of trying to appease the old bugger,maybe the bid team should have taken it as a warning sign of things to come and acted a bit more decisively to try and limit the coming fallout or,failing that,just got out altogether! Just my thoughts.

I have to say that strikes me as being rather a revisionist view of that particular piece of filth. I've read other forums in the last couple of days in which people have, quite rightly, pointed out we got the Olympics so clearly not everyone hates us. Now you could quite reasonably point out the greater influence we have within the IOC than within FIFA, but I would say it is far more fundamentally down to the nature of FIFA itself and the fact that so much power is concentrated in the hands of such a small number of individuals. I suspect deep down we've known FIFA has needed to be reformed for a long time, but did we ever think the problems were this bad?

[Olympian2004]

Rob, your posting (#656) was very, very well said. If I could only give it more positive marks than just one...

[gotosy]

Qatar would bribed Grondona with $ 78 million

according WSJ

...

According to a former employee of the Qatar bid team, at least one adviser recommended that the Qatar Football Association make a payment of $78.4 million to help the Argentina Football Association, or AFA, dig out of a financial crisis that threatened the country's domestic league. This person said the payment was meant to help Qatar's relationship with AFA President Julio Grondona, who is a member of FIFA's executive committee.

AFA Spokesman Ernesto Cherquis Bialo denied any payment was made. "The first I've heard of it," he said. Mr. Cherquis Bialo said AFA "has no debt to Qatar, nor any other overseas entity." FIFA ballots are secret, and Mr. Cherquis Bialo said he doesn't know how Mr. Grondona voted. Reached at his hotel in Zurich, Mr. Grondona also strongly denied the Qataris made any payment.

...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703377504575651103941330246.html?KEYWORDS=julio+grondona

[Olympian2004]

Qatar would bribed Grondona with $ 78 million

according WSJ

Well, only one adviser suggested paying bribes to AFA. Bad enough that the Qatar bid employed such kind of advisers and it certainly raises some suspicion about their bid activities and employees -- but as long as only one adviser suggested that and obviously his idea wasn't supported by the Qatar bid committee, then we shouldn't immediately start a witch hunt.

Qatar's victory is already scandal enough, anyway.

[Guest Jensen1981]

Rob, your posting (#656) was very, very well said. If I could only give it more positive marks than just one...

It is NOT very well said! At least, not half of it is well said! Look, there are several arguments to give Qatar the WC 2022. Arguments AGAINST and arguments SUPPORTING a Qatar-bid.

Look, I do agree that money is the decisive factor. And that makes 'us' -western nations- angry. Apparently, FIFA doesn't care that much about the FIFA evaluations. But FIFA also know that money can solve most of the organising problems. It is frustrating for us. FIFA then should not encourage countries like Spain, Portugal, England, Holland and Belgium to start a bid in the first place, if in the end money, and more importantly legal guarantees from the government will bump up the chances to win it. It is plain wrong. Moreover, Sepp Blatter's idea of giving away two WC's at the same day is plain stupid. HE could have known, especially when FIFA wants to look for 'new football frontiers', that the criticism would be explosively negative. FIFA needs to satisfy all football nations and not just the 'new football frontiers'.

BUT. Our planet is changing. That IS very obvious. While money and legal guarantees from governments ARE the reasons to easily win a bid, it is also FIFA own personal choice to move the FIFA WC to places in which football needs more development. And while Russia and Brazil are already popular football nations, the country's poor class people are still too large to make the country a stabile and welfaring nation (Middle Class there is still developing and becoming a larger part of the country's population). With the Middle East it is perhaps the same thing. Whereas Qatar is utterly rich and full of expats, the countries surrounding them are not that much. A WC in this region could bolster the football mood and give new legacy and confidence to this region. And off course the short-term, direct contribution to the country's economy are not that visible, but the long-term legacy and promotional value are perhaps more important and could in the end contribute to the economy.

Today, FIFA executive committee member Michel d'Hooghe has said the same thing more or less. The world is changing. FIFA IS looking for 'new football frontiers'. FIFA wants to hand over the organisation of WC's to entire regions that have NEVER organised it; where FIFA has never had a focus on. And I must say, I understand that argument completely. Planet Earth IS becoming smaller and perhaps that is something which North-America and Western-Europe don't like to see as well.

If you want FIFA to become more transparent, more democratic and less of a commercial moneymaker I DO understand that. But the latter argument I just gave, finding 'new football frontiers' is a very valuable and valid argument to hand over the organisation of a WC to, let's say, the Middle East region. Qatar deserves it for that reason.

And here in Western Europe? Perhaps we should look more into seeking organisation of the expanding European Championship Football. IMO that is becoming an event that is as large as the FIFA WC. 24 nations, 8 groups, well, I say to my country: Do a bid for the EC Football 2020! Without Belgium such a new larger EC could be a perfect stepping stone for Holland towards other larger tournaments like the Olympic Games.

[Frenchy]

Deary, deary me!

I've been reading the Brit posts from the start and, as corporal Jones would say "They don't like it up 'em"!!

You Brits just LOVE to whoop, jeer, gloat and post photo shopped photos (n'est-ce pas RobH?) when you win.

But when you loose.

My, My. The world comes to a standstill.

Out comes the virtuous indignation, the accusation of corruption, the DEMANDS for reform, the threats about future contributions to world foot, the veiled insinuation about the creation of a rival FIFA, the posturing resignations, etc...

You Anglos (that includes you Ozzies) are going to have to learn to take it on the chin if you want to continue dishing it out.....

So far your general attitude has been rather pathetic and pitiful.

You lost.

Live with it...

PS: wonder who Platini voted for?

[Guest Jensen1981]

PS: wonder who Platini voted for?

Well, have a guess

[Mainad]

Deary, deary me!

I've been reading the Brit posts from the start and, as corporal Jones would say "They don't like it up 'em"!!

You Brits just LOVE to whoop, jeer, gloat and post photo shopped photos (n'est-ce pas RobH?) when you win.

But when you loose.

My, My. The world comes to a standstill.

Give me one example of when we 'jeered and gloated' whenever we won anything (I don't see anything wrong with 'whooping')?

As for losing...it's not the fact that we lost,none of us have any objection to Russia getting the World Cup,it's the fact that a bid that had been consistently praised by FIFA as being by far the best technically only received ONE vote (we discount the vote by Geoff Thompson who is British).That is worth commenting upon and anybody else with a bid of similar quality would have filled this forum with comments of a similar nature!

And,coming from a country whose posters practically saturated these forums with howls of indignation and accusations of cheating and underhand tricks when Paris lost out to London for 2012,I think it's a bit rich to accuse US of having sour grapes,don't you??

Do you have a saying in French that is the equivalent of "Sounds to me like the pot calling the kettle black!"

PS: wonder who Platini voted for?

Oh I dunno.Whoever Blather told him to vote for,I expect!

[Guest Jensen1981]

Perhaps, this video should be relived:

And now, from a British perspective:

The point: There can only be one winner

[arwebb]

Deary, deary me!

I've been reading the Brit posts from the start and, as corporal Jones would say "They don't like it up 'em"!!

You Brits just LOVE to whoop, jeer, gloat and post photo shopped photos (n'est-ce pas RobH?) when you win.

But when you loose.

My, My. The world comes to a standstill.

Out comes the virtuous indignation, the accusation of corruption, the DEMANDS for reform, the threats about future contributions to world foot, the veiled insinuation about the creation of a rival FIFA, the posturing resignations, etc...

You Anglos (that includes you Ozzies) are going to have to learn to take it on the chin if you want to continue dishing it out.....

So far your general attitude has been rather pathetic and pitiful.

You lost.

Live with it...

PS: wonder who Platini voted for?

I find your comments absolutely incredible. Had you been a member of this forum for longer than the proverbial two minutes, you would know that my fellow countrymen and I are not ones for whooping, hollering and all the other stuff you accuse us of. All we are saying, and we are quite justified in it, is that there have to be questions asked of this process. Any right-thinking person in the free world would agree with that. Clearly you do not fall into this category.

[Guest Jensen1981]

I find your comments absolutely incredible. Had you been a member of this forum for longer than the proverbial two minutes, you would know that my fellow countrymen and I are not ones for whooping, hollering and all the other stuff you accuse us of. All we are saying, and we are quite justified in it, is that there have to be questions asked of this process. Any right-thinking person in the free world would agree with that. Clearly you do not fall into this category.

What about my latest two posts. Do you find them at least a tiny bit credible?

[Frenchy]

I find your comments absolutely incredible.

Posturing

Had you been a member of this forum for longer than the proverbial two minutes,

Arrogant

you would know that my fellow countrymen and I are not ones for whooping, hollering and all the other stuff you accuse us of.

Virtuous indignation

All we are saying, and we are quite justified in it, is that there have to be questions asked of this process. Any right-thinking person in the free world would agree with that.

Precisely the same questions we were asking in 2005

Clearly you do not fall into this category.

Sore loser....

[Scotguy]

There was a good comment made on the news the other day:

The guy said that when the media in England had ousted the two member of FIFA for trying to sell votes, and subsequently there suspension by FIFA, the England Bid team should have withdrew their bid and said that they were not going to take part in something that was unfair and corrupt. This would have meant that they would have had the upper hand, and not given FIFA the opportunity to humiliate them as they ended up doing.

By pulling out they would have over shadowed the vote and may have had a bigger impact than continuing and then calling for reforms after losing the bid

[arwebb]

Posturing

Arrogant

Virtuous indignation

Precisely the same questions we were asking in 2005

Sore loser....

You wish I was all of those things. The reality is that I and those of us who share my position are right and that your lingering bitterness over a process in which you had far more democracy that we had on Thursday is giving you a very jaundiced view of us.

I don't particularly want to trade insults with you, but I would respectfully suggest that you retrieve your brain from wherever you had it last before posting in future.

[arwebb]

What about my latest two posts. Do you find them at least a tiny bit credible?

I don't know whether you noticed, but I actually raised the issue of England possibly going for the European Championship in the immediate aftermath of the vote. As far as I understand, the process for 2020 has already begun, but if the will is there, I don't see why we shouldn't consider 2024.

The other point is that I don't think anybody has the slightest problem with the idea of the World Cup, the Olympic Games or any other big event going to new places. But there are two key issues that go with that. First, the governing bodies need to be explicit in what they want to do with their events. If it is their wish to go to new frontiers, then that should have been made known and a lot of bidders could have saved a lot of money they clearly didn't need to spend.

The other point is the question of credibility. It is obvious that, particularly in the 2022 vote but also in the 2018 vote aswell to some extent, an awful lot of highly credible bids have been turned down in favour of proposals that are, to be frank, high-risk. That is the voting body's prerogative, of course, but then you have to ask why they take all these technical and financial reports when they clearly mean nothing to the voters. I think the point has already been made that if you had a formal shortlisting process, then only the most credible proposals would get through. That is something which has to be looked at for the next bidding process.

[stir.ts]

By that logic wouldn't Rio have been left out of 2016?

[Sir Rols]

By that logic wouldn't Rio have been left out of 2016?

It's the logic that scratched Baku, Prague ... and Doha .. from the 2016 race.