DannyelBrazil Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 (edited) Oh i see. Thanks for that youtube video and links. ...But Athletics and the ceremonies, the two most high profile elements of the games are not at the olympic park?? It's like having a 'capital city' but the parliament and presidential palace is not located there LOL... I suppose a multiple cauldron situation might be the simple solution.... but that really, really sucks! It's so dilutive and ruins the whole concept of the 'flame'. I have yet to see a multiple cauldron situation that works. Most winter games that had multiple cauldrons, including the most recent Vancouver's was simply ambiguous, confusing, unmemorable and awful! In Vancouver, we all remember the glitchy indoor one, the outdoor one with the barricades and hmmm, like were there two? no in actual fact, three! One more in whistler! But no one remembers exactly where, how or when. No multiple cauldrons please!!!! ....maybe the best will be to have a really huge cauldron high up in the mountains and then it will be visible from many parts of the city, just like the Christ Statue! I agree, multiple cauldrons just sucks. Maybe the cauldron will be place outside Maracana stadium, visible from in and out of the stadium... I don't know how they will solve this. About the olympic park without olympic stadium, this is sad, but I don't see big problems on it. As I said before... I still think Rio OCOG will present a plan to build a real-olympic stadium in the Olympic Park to host athletics and the ceremonies... At least, it's my wish. Yet about the olympic park, Rock In Rio, the biggest Rock and music festival of the world (in attendance, according to English Wikipedia) is back after 10 years. It had been already confirmed to be held in the future site of the Olympic Park. The events for 2011, 2013 and 2015 are already confirmed. http://www.rockinrio.com Edited August 17, 2010 by DannyelBrazil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bezzi Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I do not understand this obsession with the ceremony in the athletics stadium or the need for the athletics stadium to be inserted into the main complex. That is to belittle the other sports, which for me is just as important as track and field. Only the marathon deserves to be treated differently because of their history, but also I see no need to finish in the athletics stadium. About the cauldron, because of the size of the new roof, I believe they will build a structure to keep it suspended over the field, just like they do in some stadiums where the score is located in the center. That was the idea of PANAM. Rosa Magalhaes was intended to put the cauldron, which was shaped like the sun, in the center of the stadium, but it was not possible due to the old roof and the limited budget. With a larger budget for 2016, they can do that. It's an original idea. I do not remember seeing anything like that in other Olympic Games. Imagine the images during the opening and soccer games! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceezeelee Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 (edited) Because the Olympic Stadium (aka home to the ceremonies, cauldron, athletics and soccer finals, marathon end) is like the 'anchor tenant' of any summer OG. Like we will always expect the stadium to host Soccer Finals, and we will always expect the marathon to end there on the morning of the closing ceremony (unless there is an far greater over riding reason such as Athens 04) It's just tradition as it always has been. We look forward to that 'tradition' once every four years. It's not that Athletics is a more important sport. It's just that some how, traditionally for the Summer OG, the Olympic Stadium is the flagship venue. Traditionally, it is also the largest venue in terms of seating capacity and biggest architectural draw that anchors the games in people's minds. Like in Beijing, everyone will forever remember the Bird's Nest, same for possibly Sydney's Stadium Australia, LA's Colosseum or Munich's unusual "tented" roofing. It is about branding the games through architecture and design. Thus it's location is intrinsic to the dynamics of the games. I.e. prime location: heart of the Olympic Park, along the central axis of the Olympic Boulevard etc... It just adds to the pomp and circumstance of the atmosphere, the spectacle that we all know is the Games of the Olympiad. It is a feeling no other place on earth can provide, besides the World Expo maybe, but still the Summer OG is the ultimate experience. Walking down this enormous, cavernous space with tens of thousands of people from all over the world! Among venues of sport, cultural festivities and dynamic architecture. And having the flame in the park, seeing it high up from all surrounding areas surely contributes to the atmosphere of the location and it makes the place 'sacred', in an emotional way I suppose, both for athletes and spectators alike. Of course there will always be events that happen in more obscure locals, some simply because of geography (such as sailing or biking) but traditionally, (which is what the venerable Games of the Olympiad are always about - tradition), the Olympic Stadium has been the 'capital venue' of the games in people's hearts, long after the games have ended. Just my two cents worth Edited August 17, 2010 by ceezeelee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bezzi Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 You did not convince me with that traditional talk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim856796 Posted August 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 The Barra Cluster is a main venue cluster (or Olympic Park) without the main stadium, such an idea is original. I agree, there should be only one cauldron, and Joao Havelange Stadium will have that cauldron. The architectural style, or maybe its roof. may be more appropriate for Olympic Ceremonies than Maracana. And the soccer finals do not have to take place in the Olympic Stadium. Maracana hosts the ceremonies, and a curse may be put on any future Summer Olympic host cities (The Maracana Curse). I think Rio has an obsession with having a track-less stadium as the Olympic Stadium, the Mario Filho will never be an Olympic Stadium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 (edited) I do not understand this obsession with the ceremony in the athletics stadium or the need for the athletics stadium to be inserted into the main complex. That is to belittle the other sports, which for me is just as important as track and field. Only the marathon deserves to be treated differently because of their history, but also I see no need to finish in the athletics stadium. About the cauldron, because of the size of the new roof, I believe they will build a structure to keep it suspended over the field, just like they do in some stadiums where the score is located in the center. That was the idea of PANAM. Rosa Magalhaes was intended to put the cauldron, which was shaped like the sun, in the center of the stadium, but it was not possible due to the old roof and the limited budget. With a larger budget for 2016, they can do that. It's an original idea. I do not remember seeing anything like that in other Olympic Games. Imagine the images during the opening and soccer games! The idea of a gas pipeline running across the centre of the stadium and a massive flame burning directly above the field suspended by wires doesn't sound particularly safe if I'm honest. Since it's going to be footballers in the middle of the field rather than various inanimate objects (though sometimes it's hard to tell the difference, granted), the idea sounds even more dodgy. I think this idea has been bandied about before on here; there were long discussions on the idea of a suspended cauldron in the lead up to Beijing '08. Edited August 17, 2010 by RobH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 The idea of a gas pipeline running across the centre of the stadium and a massive flame burning directly above the field suspended by wires doesn't sound particularly safe if I'm honest. I think FIFA will never approve that too. Maybe the cauldron stays outside the Maracana... Of course there will always be events that happen in more obscure locals, some simply because of geography (such as sailing or biking) but traditionally, (which is what the venerable Games of the Olympiad are always about - tradition), the Olympic Stadium has been the 'capital venue' of the games in people's hearts, long after the games have ended. IOC approved the idea... Maybe they think the traditions can change a little... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 (edited) The panams didn't have a flame in the athletics stadium despite having the same dual stadium arrangement did they? Edited August 17, 2010 by RobH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danfla Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 If the idea was to keep the tradition probably Rio wouldn't be chosen to host the Games. Maracanã is the most important stadium in Brasil, probably the most important stadium of the most popular sport in the world, for me is a easy decision that the cerimony must happen there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 (edited) London four years earlier has wembley which is just as famous and important in footballing terms as the maracna. The stadium's fame is not a good enough reason by itself to change things. From a logistical point of view I can accept the arrangement though, as can the ioc. However I'm curious to discover how the cauldron situation will work. Edited August 17, 2010 by RobH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim856796 Posted August 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 Ceremonies cannot happen at Mario Filho, sorry, but it was wrong of the IOC to approve of this idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Rols Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 I suppose at the end of the day, some people will be wowed, some people will grumble, but the Games will still be the Games. There's no denying that tradition is one of the big appeals of the Games, especially in its ceremonial aspects, but you've always gotta tread that fine line between honouring tradition and allowing for a bit of flexibility and evolution. As long as they stick to a main general template, I don't have a problem if not every time every single part of that template is perfectly replicated. I'm quite happy that things can evolve, maybe new traditions can appear, and a bit of leeway can be given hosts. We got used to the end of the doves, no more daytime ceremonies (I wouldn't mind seeing a day ceremony again for maybe even a once-off), evening medal presentations at the winter games and whatever else. I'm sure we can still live with the odd marathon not ending in the main stadium or ceremony being held in a venue of its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceezeelee Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 (edited) Yes there must be room for new things. But sometimes the risk is great. Vancouver's BC Place tried many new things when it came to this aspect. Many were unfortunately not as successful in terms of immediate impact and long term legacy in people's minds, as it could have been. (Multiple Cauldrons being one of them, the inflated roof etc..) to justify having it this way in the future. It would have been fantastic if it succeeded and became the new way of doing things, like how Sydney succeeded in ceremonies that it is defined as the turning point in theatrical ceremonial productions and every host city has been trying to outdo each other since then, but unfortunately the impact of vancouver's cauldrons was lackluster and even controversial at times. I will say BC Place was an exception that they attempted, but will try to be avoided in the future if possible, same for Maracana, at most it will be a one off. Besides Maracana will have it's moment of glory as the 'anchor venue' at the 2014 world cup because of it's soccer status. It will be strange associating it as the 'olympic stadium' as soon as 1.5 years later - some how I think. How did they do the cauldron at the 2007 games with two stadiums? Sorry I don't live in the Americas so I have no impressions or memories of 2007 Pam Am. Edited August 18, 2010 by ceezeelee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Yes there must be room for new things. But sometimes the risk is great. Vancouver's BC Place tried many new things when it came to this aspect. Many were unfortunately not as successful in terms of immediate impact and long term legacy in people's minds, as it could have been. (Multiple Cauldrons being one of them, the inflated roof etc..) to justify having it this way in the future. It would have been fantastic if it succeeded and became the new way of doing things, like how Sydney succeeded in ceremonies that it is defined as the turning point in theatrical ceremonial productions and every host city has been trying to outdo each other since then, but unfortunately the impact of vancouver's cauldrons was lackluster and even controversial at times. I will say BC Place was an exception that they attempted, but will try to be avoided in the future if possible, same for Maracana, at most it will be a one off. Besides Maracana will have it's moment of glory as the 'anchor venue' at the 2014 world cup because of it's soccer status. It will be strange associating it as the 'olympic stadium' as soon as 1.5 years later - some how I think. How did they do the cauldron at the 2007 games with two stadiums? Sorry I don't live in the Americas so I have no impressions or memories of 2007 Pam Am. Ceezeelee, There was only one cauldron, in Maracanã Stadium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim856796 Posted August 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 The I guess RdJ is in trouble, then... A main stadium dispute means the 2016 Olympics will be a disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Rols Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 (edited) The I guess RdJ is in trouble, then... A main stadium dispute means the 2016 Olympics will be a disaster. Jim, I'd like you to meet this member called TowerGuy ... Edited August 18, 2010 by Sir Rols Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Jim has a chip on his shoulder about this, as he did about our Olympic football tournament being an inevitable failure merely because villa park had pulled out. There's no middle ground with him; things are either exactly to his liking or else they're doomed to complete failure. I have some sympathy with his worry about the cauldron, but you can't take him seriously if he believes its effect will be to completely ruin 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceezeelee Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 (edited) Jim has a chip on his shoulder about this, as he did about our Olympic football tournament being an inevitable failure merely because villa park had pulled out. There's no middle ground with him; things are either exactly to his liking or else they're doomed to complete failure. I have some sympathy with his worry about the cauldron, but you can't take him seriously if he believes its effect will be to completely ruin 2016. It won't be an utter failure. I'm sure brazilian hospitality and their ability to throw amazing parties will ensure a fantastic games. It just may not be remembered for it's iconic architecture or a strong recollection of venues... And prob during the games there will be some confusion where the main stadium is and counfusion which is indeed the 'olympic stadium'. some tourists and officals will get lost along the way maybe, on their way to soccer and ending up in the wrong stadium, since both are even in the same cluster. Tv viewers will be confused at first between atheletics stadium and maracana but who cares. Edited August 18, 2010 by ceezeelee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 (edited) About confusing tourists... I don't think so. Rio will do something new and mass media will talk about this during 4 years... "The first time ever a host city will have two stadiums and bla bla bla bla" People will get used to it... No doubts part of the traditional mood about ceremonies will be changed, but, in the final, we are discussing about choosing between two shapes of stadiums... A tradition broker would be some Olympic opening ceremony in Copacabana Beach, like the last video Rio presented in Copenhagen seemed. For me and many Brazilians, and probably for the media it would be outstanding... But this would be really to break traditions. Actually... Somthing like this already happened! Indianapolis 1987 PanAms had its Opening Ceremony in Indianapolis Speedway... At least soccer is part of the olympic program... Motorsports don't... Yet. London four years earlier has wembley which is just as famous and important in footballing terms as the maracna. The stadium's fame is not a good enough reason by itself to change things. From a logistical point of view I can accept the arrangement though, as can the ioc. However I'm curious to discover how the cauldron situation will work. If London presented Wembley for the Olympic Games, it would be very cool, IMHO. And, probably IOC would allow it too, since Wembley is a mythic stadium and this generates buzz on the media (which means more audience and then more money from sponsors). Edited August 18, 2010 by DannyelBrazil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bezzi Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 How did they do the cauldron at the 2007 games with two stadiums? Sorry I don't live in the Americas so I have no impressions or memories of 2007 Pam Am. This was the only cauldron at the Maracana, venue of the opening ceremony and football During the ceremony During a football match Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 (edited) Does anybody know where the cauldron was place in Indianapolis 1987? Edited August 18, 2010 by DannyelBrazil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bezzi Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 I think it was placed in the middle of the track. There was no competition there after the ceremony, except for the speed roller skating. Not even the closing ceremony was there. I don't know if the cauldron was transported or if there was another at the RCA Dome where the closing occurred. http://assets.espn.go.com/sportscenter/images/Closing.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 I don't know, they want to reduce the field space in Maracana and if this is true, it will be impossible to make the ceremonies there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyelBrazil Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 (edited) The Lapa Arches, placed in Maracana clusted, is now been refurbshed, after 15 years. The result is getting really great. It's good to see that Rio have been transformed since the city was awarded the games. Many working have been done in the city, which is really great. You can see more of Lapa Arches refurbshment here: http://www.flickr.co...N06/4873461030/ Edited August 22, 2010 by DannyelBrazil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim856796 Posted August 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 I don't know, they want to reduce the field space in Maracana and if this is true, it will be impossible to make the ceremonies there. If the field space of the Mario Filho Stadium is reduced, they they'll end up having to move the ceremonies to the (expanded) Joao Havelange Stadium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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