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I happened to watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=dxBbjciQ-A8&feature=related which are highlights of the 2004 Paralympic Opening Ceremony in Athens.

When you get to the Lighting of the Cauldron (at 3:10)... how does it compare to http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=jGD8nyR__s4&feature=related

:blink: Hmmmmmmmmmmm :blink:

(You heard it first from me...here in GB.)

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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I wouldn't go so far as to say that Torino directly copied the Athens Paralympic Torch lighting. Torino's lighting was fully independent, whereas at the Athens Paralympic one, you see the rocket/fireworks light the roof ones that go in sequence to light the flame (i.e the sparks light the flame), where it's only partially independent. You could say Torino drew inspiration from Athens' Paralympics one.

That being said, why couldn't they just do something like the Athens Olympics? Did the torch malfunction afterwords or did they really want something different?

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I wouldn't go so far as to say that Torino directly copied the Athens Paralympic Torch lighting. Torino's lighting was fully independent, whereas at the Athens Paralympic one, you see the rocket/fireworks light the roof ones that go in sequence to light the flame (i.e the sparks light the flame), where it's only partially independent. You could say Torino drew inspiration from Athens' Paralympics one.

That being said, why couldn't they just do something like the Athens Olympics? Did the torch malfunction afterwords or did they really want something different?

What? :blink: U're splitting wires or something??? It's the same principle and m.o. -- wick, fireworks, roof, cauldron. Simple.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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Wow...yea, the Torino Olympic and Athens Paralympic cauldron lightings are a bit too similar. Definitely a rip off.

And personally, I absolutely hate these type of cauldron lightings where the torch relay travels thousands and thousands of kilometres, only to arrive at the stadium with a 100% fake lighting. The Torino cauldron lighting was a bit disappointing.

I think that when it comes to complex Olympic cauldron lightings, Barcelona, Sydney, and Vancouver (lmao) top the list. Oh, David Atkins...two hydraulics mishaps in a row.

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What? :blink: U're splitting wires or something??? It's the same principle and m.o. -- wick, fireworks, roof, cauldron. Simple.

There was no wick of sorts for Torino, nor was there the fireworks rocket and the sparks at the end did not light the cauldron for Torino.

Torino had the lighting on the base, then the fireworks worked independently.

Here you have a close to direct lighting, without being directly at the cauldron.

It's similar, but as an outright copying? I don't think so, had Torino done the rocket part, then yes, it would be the case.

Edited by Lord David
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Well umm, why is this posted at Vancouver 2010 anyways? ;)

BECAUSE THERE NO LONGER IS A TORINO FOLDER. Duh! And the Vancouver Lighting is still fresh in people's minds.

What "rocket" part... r u blathering about? They're the same. End of story.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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BECAUSE THERE NO LONGER IS A TORINO FOLDER. Duh! And the Vancouver Lighting is still fresh in people's minds.

What "rocket" part... r u blathering about? They're the same. End of story.

Well then you put it in general discussion.

As for the rocket part, didn't that Paralympic lighter light a rocket that headed to the roof to start the fireworks?

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Well ok Torino's lighting may have taken inspiration from previous but is that a big deal?

They're both OLYMPIC ceremonies afterall.. they obviously share ideas and moves.. rip-off? really? :huh:

It is really so necessary to make it extravagant and complicated (and eventually turning out be mulfunctioning) everytime?

and even if you're arguing Torino copied Athens.. it's not bad at all considering that Athens delivered beautiful ceremonies.

Anyway, I would point out one real good part about Torino's lighting: the ultimate spark. Very cool. Take a look.

2ng965l.jpg4tocat.jpg

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Well then you put it in general discussion.

Well, I purposely put it here because I had my reasons. You PUT IN your own posts where you want them.

Well ok Torino's lighting may have taken inspiration from previous but is that a big deal?

They're both OLYMPIC ceremonies afterall.. they obviously share ideas and moves.. rip-off? really? :huh:

It is really so necessary to make it extravagant and complicated (and eventually turning out be mulfunctioning) everytime?

and even if you're arguing Torino copied Athens.. it's not bad at all considering that Athens delivered beautiful ceremonies.

Anyway, I would point out one real good part about Torino's lighting: the ultimate spark. Very cool. Take a look.

2ng965l.jpg4tocat.jpg

I was wondering when Rei would show up.

Well, Rei, one of the 'unwritten' criteria of staging these unique Ceremonies is to use 'original' ideas never before seen and unveiled to the world for the first time. There is a very small community of these Special Event producers and there is a great deal of oneupsmanship and also a certain amount of pride in presenting their 'creations' to the world as unique and original. After all, the 'freshness and originality' of their work may GET them the next big assignment; but not if all they do is copy somebody else's work.

As outsider kibitzer/observers, it also becomes our (or at least my) job to compare and catch 'scofflaws' or cheats since, well, these matters do border on the 'intellectual property' realm. I mean da Vinci and Michaelangelo would not be considered world-revered artists each in his own right if one merely copied from the other, would they? After all, the IOCs of the world are showing these spectacles to the outside world and subject to our own scrutiny and comparison. Also, why would they make a big deal about "...the secrecy of the maneuver and who wold light the cauldron..." if it's merely a repeat of a previously attempted scheme, and the last one at that? I mean I can't be a Madonna or Cher or Cirque du Soleil fan forever if all they did were exactly the same thing over and over, would I??

Yes, Torino improved on it and made it grander. And frankly, speaking for myself, I was not bothered by Belmondo's not actually touching the flame or the tower as others are. Hell, London may have its cauldron circle around the roof before coming to a stop. But that would look awfully familiar, wouldn't it?

A quote I found on the Paralympics page of Beijing:

"Three years of efforts result in seconds' display"

Both Yimou and Jigang admitted that the creation and use of performance forms are the most difficult job. "Spectators would not tolerate anything that they have already seen elsewhere," said Yimou.

Taking commonly referenced moments of the Olympic Opening Ceremony as an example, Yimou said, like "burning Olympic rings under water" at the Athens Games and the rings formed by a cavalry at the Sydney Games, Beijing's "dreamlike rings" flashing as stars on the night sky achieved the same unforgettable effect. "But it took three years for our team to painstakingly think of, search for and produce it," he said.

Both Zhangs are proud of their creative production of lighting in the ceremonies for the Olympics and Paralympics. "Even if your ideas are perfect, you need to find specific and matching methods to display them," Jigang said. "Lighting the main cauldron though an arrow shooting was a creative and unprecedented move at the Barcelona Games, but nobody would consider or use that kind of lighting formula anymore, even if looking at the possibility of using a discus throw because that would be seen as a copy of Barcelona," joked Yimou.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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Sorry to spoil the fun for you, but I noticed the similarity already when I watched the Torino opening ceremony live back then in 2006.

Yes, F...but did you report it? I am sure others who watched both in their sequence in time would've caught that -- but who reported it first here?? I just don't remember anyone pointing out the obvious similarity then.

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Yes, F...but did you report it? I am sure others who watched both in their sequence in time would've caught that -- but who reported it first here?? I just don't remember anyone pointing out the obvious similarity then.

I'm pretty certain that I've already read one, if not more posts around here in which the similarity was pointed out. Maybe not by me, but by other members.

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Myers: Okay, maybe my dad did steal Itchy, but so what? Animation is

built on plagiarism!

[lawyer slaps his forehead]

If it weren't for someone plagiarizing the Honeymooners, we

wouldn't have the Flintstones. If someone hadn't ripped off Sgt.

Bilko, they'd be no Top Cat. Huckleberry Hound, Chief Wiggum,

Yogi Bear? Hah! Andy Griffith, Edward G. Robinson, Art Carney.

-- Er, don't forget Yogi Berra, "The Day the Violence Died"

So big deal, people plagiarize things all the time...

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So big deal, people plagiarize things all the time...

You're condoning it? :rolleyes: It's just like stealing.

If one has any intellectual honesty and self-respect, you DON'T even plagiarize; much less, get caught doing it. And nothing so obvious as something shown on worldwide television AND seen by millions.

I certainly have less respect for Ric Birch now. Torino happened under his watch.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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ANd people who do it AND condone it, don't have very much self-respect. I certainly have less respect for Ric Birch now. Torino happened under his watch.

I think you are overreacting. Salt Lake had a flame crawling up the stem of the cauldron -- just like Moscow 1980. Atlanta copied Albertville's lit wick. So why don't you cry murder there as well?

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I think you are overreacting. Salt Lake had a flame crawling up the stem of the cauldron -- just like Moscow 1980. Atlanta copied Albertville's lit wick. So why don't you cry murder there as well?

I know about Albertville - Atlanta; and perhaps Moscow - Salt Lake. But the latter was NOT so obvious ANd there was at least a span of 22 years before anyone could, by a stretch, really compare the 2...I mean the Moscow lighting's ingenuity was more in Belov racing up the stunt card section RATHER than the actual applying of the flame. Salt Lake made no such attempt to copy the stunt card approach.

Atlanta/Albertville were both rather pedestrian attempts and as you may have noticed, I have made no effort to waste any more breath on them. And I wasn't going to mention it, but a more cynical person could say that Athens '04 copied LA'84 with the rising staircase -- except that wasn't the main point of either: in LA, Rafer then lit the gas duct passing thru the rings before going up to the torch; and in Athens, they had the most unusual m.o. of having the reefer bend down to receive the flame. Plus there was at least a passage of 20 years between the two; and Athens raised its stairs in the dark so it wouldn't be too obvious.

It's just that Athens '04 Paralympics, and then Torino '06 WOGs happened right after each other; and since Ric Birch was the Exec Producer for Torino (and he is/was known for the highly original Barcelona and Sydney lighting maneuvers), I really thought Torino's m.o. was the same. But given the "Mediterranean" sea appearances in Auckland '90 and AGAIN in the Athens' '91 Med Games opening right before the bigger splash in Barcelona , I now have less reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. My expectations in one of the pioneers and visionaries of SUCH a tiny and highly specizlized field have been greatly dashed. (And this will be reflected in the 2012 ed of my book.)

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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And still, I think that you're overreacting. Just because Athens and Torino were only two years apart doesn't make it more scandalous than the very similar lighting methods of Moscow and Salt Lake respectively Albertville and Atlanta.

And if you say that the copy in Torino was more obvious due to the short timespan that had passed since Athens: Well, it was obviously so unobvious that you (and probably many others) didn't notice it until four years later.

Thirdly, you should take also into account the other ceremonial elements that were copied in Olympic history. Why is it less "scandalous" when, for example, the giant cloth covering the athletes was copied in three editions of the Games (Barcelona 1992, Sydney 2000, Athens 2004) and the "countdown" of previous Olympic host cities was done even five times in Olympic history (Barcelona 1992, Atlanta 1996, Salt Lake 2002, Athens 2004, Vancouver 2010)?

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And if you say that the copy in Torino was more obvious due to the short timespan that had passed since Athens: Well, it was obviously so unobvious that you (and probably many others) didn't notice it until four years later.

I only saw the Athens Paralympics clip yesterday. FIRST TIME ever; never before that...that is why the comparison came as a "mini"-shock.

Thirdly, you should take also into account the other ceremonial elements that were copied in Olympic history. Why is it less "scandalous" when, for example, the giant cloth covering the athletes was copied in three editions of the Games (Barcelona 1992, Sydney 2000, Athens 2004) and the "countdown" of previous Olympic host cities was done even five times in Olympic history (Barcelona 1992, Atlanta 1996, Salt Lake 2002, Athens 2004, Vancouver 2010)?

Well, there are OTHER traditions that are carried on and they don't make such a big to-do about...among them that silly giant 'bedsheet.' Look, F, you're carrying this way out of proportion. You know as well as the next Ceremony fanboy that the Lighting of the Cauldron is the HIGHLIGHT of any Olympic ceremony, and that is what they try their darndest to (1) make highly original; (2) KEEP under wraps as much as possible...like rehearsing at 1:00am or 2:00am...thus, it's really a little shocking to me that under Birch's stewardship in Torino, that's all he/his team could come up with. I was impressed with it..UNTIL the discovery yesterday.

Why don't you let me revel or wallow in my 'discovery'? It's a self-discovery...and you and Lord David don't have to share in it if you don't see the siutation in the same way I do. I am sure you have had other post-fact discoveries that would seem 'over-reacting' to me or someone else otherwise. ;)

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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You're condoning it? :rolleyes: It's just like stealing.

If one has any intellectual honesty and self-respect, you DON'T even plagiarize; much less, get caught doing it. And nothing so obvious as something shown on worldwide television AND seen by millions.

I certainly have less respect for Ric Birch now. Torino happened under his watch.

Big deal, a cauldron lighting with similarities. It's not like the guys for Torino deliberately copied Athens' Cauldron and fuse and such.

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Changing one tiny element about the Athens Paralympic lighting does not make it alright...it was the same thing, copied. And it was just 18-months between both events, that's just far too soon.

Try handing in a term paper that you copied directly from the net...and you got caught, but then you claimed it was alright because you added one small paragraph that you wrote yourself.

I never liked the Torino lighting (the flame from the torchbearer's torch MUST light the cauldron for it to be real), but until Baron's post I had always thought the Torino lighting sequence was original.

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Thanks, X.

OK...here's a direct COPY of Barcelona's lighting scheme, done at the recently concluded SEA Games in Laos in December 2009:

If you're unaware of Barcelona, then of course, as a viewer, you would be mightily impressed. But then, if you are...then you know there was an original. OK, they dressed up a warrior vs. using a plainclothes paraplegic, and it looks like they shot their arrow into the base of the cauldron. And OK, they waited at least seventeen (17) years before using the same technique.

But still for anyone who follows this specialized field of sports spectacles, you know that this isn't original...

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It could be a copy, but for Athens it was unnecesary to do that type of cauldron lighting since cauldron in Athens Olympic Stadium is visible from all tribunes, while in Torino it wasn't visible for most of the stadium seats, so it probably worked a little to make sure that nobody would lose at least a few of the cauldron lighting spectacle B)

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It could be a copy, but for Athens it was unnecesary to do that type of cauldron lighting since cauldron in Athens Olympic Stadium is visible from all tribunes, while in Torino it wasn't visible for most of the stadium seats, so it probably worked a little to make sure that nobody would lose at least a few of the cauldron lighting spectacle B)

That's not the point though (of this thread). Regardless of where the caldera were located, the point is Torino seems so obviously to have copied Athens' m.o. so quickly; and here's where I think what might've prompted the Torino organizers: nobody watches the Paralympics, so maybe it's OK if we "borrow" that technique. Maybe no one will notice. Well...

Mau, that's the whole point of this particular discussion.

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