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U.S. Winter Bid for 2022 or 2026


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And what exactly is 'high quality'? I mean once they've been vetted by the USOC, already presumably the most active, lucrative NOC in the world, and having been advised by the best consultants, etc., that money can buy, it would already be a 'top quality' bid of the moment. I mean that goes without saying. And if its up against equally so-so bids from Europe, then exactly what does your 'high quality' concept involve? I mean there are ONLY 3 viable options 7/14 years ahead of the event. Or are you going to say, ...we don't know that...and hold out for an ideal, flawless Winter bid that will somehow emerge from the mists and be everything that Denver, Reno and SLC aren't? :blink:

Let's not act as though any American bid is guaranteed to be great. Even you must acknowledge that not all bid cities offered up by the USOC over the years have been equally strong.

Here's what I mean by high quality bid city: a city that can follow Beijing, Vancouver, London, Sochi, Rio, Pyeongchang, and whoever we get for 2020 in a manner that keeps the Olympic momentum going and re-energizes the world.

Baron, I feel like you keep arguing that it doesn't matter if a bid is riddled with weaknesses as long as it manages to qualify as the best of a bunch of bad options. I really want to see memorable, wonderful American Games. I think the IOC does too. This "best of the bad options" routine leaves me totally cold.

I've never said I want a flawless, perfect host. Let's not pretend that Denver, SLC and Reno are right next door to perfection and I'm just being nit-picky. We all know they've each got far bigger problems than that. To clarify, I've already said I think Denver has potential and that SLC and Reno do not.

If nothing "emerges from the mists" as you say, then the USOC shouldn't bid. Plain and simple. If they do bid with a lackluster proposal, I have every confidence that the IOC will simply reject it.

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It came across as arrogant (maybe that's far too strong a word actually) because it's making an assumption that the vote was about a message to America, when quite frankly it wasn't. It's viewing the

The thing that surprises me the most in this thread is that there are so many people who are unwilling to just be patient. Is it really that hard to wait and put forward a top-drawer American bid when

And do u really think they will turn down the whatever $.5 million deposit for over a year + all the interest it can add to its coffers, at the outset--just to put US supporters' mind at rest? And wh

Totally agree with this. The airport is not a deal-breaker. It's just one more weakness that adds to an overall impression.

That would be absurd. That's not what I've argued though.

You wrote, "Reno is doomed by virtually non-existent venues, a totally inadequate airport,"

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Nor would I say that a highly qualified winter bid should be on ice (ha ha) until a decent summer candidate comes along.

You've argued exactly that over and over and over and over again. It is possible there are multiple people posting under your account that don't read each others posts?

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Here's what I mean by high quality bid city: a city that can follow Beijing, Vancouver, London, Sochi, Rio, Pyeongchang, and whoever we get for 2020 in a manner that keeps the Olympic momentum going and re-energizes the world.

By just about any measure, Sochi (actually Adler) and Pyeongchang are horribly flawed as far as world cities go... only being made into acceptable Olympic host cities by governments willing to spend massive amount on stuff. The worst of Denver/SLC/Tahoe is far ahead of these two... both of which you are willing to call a high quality bid city. Not to mention that all three potential 2020 hosts have serious flaws.

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You wrote, "Reno is doomed by virtually non-existent venues, a totally inadequate airport,"

Yeah, I did. I also notice you conveniently truncated the list. I never said "Reno can't host because it's airport is such a disaster." "Virtually non-existent venues" is a much bigger problem than the airport.

I've listed many reasons over the years as to why Reno is not a fit host: lack of venues, very long travel distances relying on key venues in a different state, tacky gambling town, "it is what it is" attitude, the fact that ESPN big-wigs laugh out loud at the idea of Reno hosting the Olympics. The airport was just the latest in a long string of weaknesses. By itself it's not a deal-breaker. , but put it together with everything else and there's a problem.

You guys are just being argumentative. My comments are not self-contradictory. You purposefully polarize and twist them because you want somebody to fight with.

You've argued exactly that over and over and over and over again. It is possible there are multiple people posting under your account that don't read each others posts?

No I haven't. Your reading comprehension needs serious work.

My position remains unchanged.

I have never once said that a quality Winter bid should be sidelined indefinitely while we wait for a decent Summer city to show up. Once again you are purposefully twisting and polarizing my views just so you have somebody to argue with.

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Just for the heck of it, I'm going to state my own opinion. I don't appreciate the taste of other people's words in my mouth.

I think that the US should host Summer Games before Winter Games. I believe this is important for American athletes, audiences and investors and for the Olympic movement as a whole. I do not want to prematurely give up on the possibility of a Summer bid simply because there are three rather troubled aspiring winter hosts making noise. I think it's worth pursuing Summer Games as far as possible -- sounding out interested parties, exploring possible partnerships etc. I believe this avenue should be exhausted before entertaining the idea of a winter bid. So far, that avenue has not been exhausted -- at least not publicly. Therefore I'm unwilling to abandon my preference for Summer Games at this time. I do believe that if the USOC chose to focus on Summer Games, the US would host no later than 2032 and probably before.

However, I have conceded on many occasions that it is entirely possible that no capable city will want to bid for 2024 (or 2028 or 2032, for that matter). If this is the case, it makes sense to consider 2026. However, for the USOC to knowingly postpone American Summer Games another couple of decades, they had better be head-over-heels in love with their winter candidate. Of course no bid is perfect. They all have weaknesses. For example, Munich had the Garmisch issues to deal with, but hey -- it was still a very exciting bid. It made sense for them to take a run at the Games. I don't want to see the USOC throw their support behind a ho-hum winter bid that is trying to hide the fact that it is lame from the start.

SLC 2002 hobbles the SLC candidacy -- not practically, but politically and subjectively. Reno's lack of venues, lack of ambiance, very long travel times and laissez-faire attitude similarly handicap them. Denver is the only candidate I believe has the potential to rise above their circumstances and win over the IOC with a sparkling bid, but even they have to deal with ugly ghosts from the past and some significant transport issues.

If no qualified summer candidate comes forward, I am open to the possibility of a Denver bid and I would support it.

I still think it is also possible that the only interested cities may be unqualified and therefore the USOC may be best advised to bow out of both 2024 and 2026.

My opinion on all the above matters has not changed.

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You guys are just being argumentative. My comments are not self-contradictory. You purposefully polarize and twist them because you want somebody to fight with.

Oh, heaven forbid!! Au contraire!

I still think it is also possible that the only interested cities may be unqualified and therefore the USOC may be best advised to bow out of both 2024 and 2026.

Well, we don't know that, do we? :lol:;)

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Seattle doens't have great ski options. There is only has one realistic location to host the big alpine events. It's nowhere near Seattle and would be a big traffic headache.

It would also be very tough to justify building jumping and sledding tracks so near Vancouver. If they day comes where the IOC is fine with those being held at remote locations, I could see Seattle. But if we get that, I'd expect to see Montreal or Quebec / Lake Placid before Seattle / Vancouver.

Crystal Mountain has a vertical in excess of 900m and is I think is no further from Seattle, than Vancouver is from Whistler. There are also a number of potential hills for ski jumping, freestyle, snowboarding, slalom events in the Snoqualmie Resorts closer to the city. With the ShoWare Center, Tacoma Dome, Key Arena and new Seattle Arena, there are also a number of indoor arenas which could be used for the indoor events - The Tacoma Dome I believe is big enough to fit a speed skating track and still meet the IOC capacity requirements.

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No I haven't. Your reading comprehension needs serious work.

My position remains unchanged.

I have never once said that a quality Winter bid should be sidelined indefinitely while we wait for a decent Summer city to show up. Once again you are purposefully twisting and polarizing my views just so you have somebody to argue with.

zeke/baron, no need to thank me, this was sitting on page 1 of this very thread..

I have not been bashful about expressing my views regarding the next U.S. bid. I STRONGLY believe the next Games on U.S. soil must be Summer Games. If 2024 is not the right time, then I think the U.S. needs to bid for 2028. I believe ANY Winter Bid would be an enormous mistake because a winter hosting would significantly prolong the wait for another Summer Games. This would be catastrophic for American Olympic fans, sponsors and athletes.

I reiterate my hope that the U.S. will focus on a summer hosting and abandon the thought of pursuing the Winter Games -- especially with a substandard host like Reno.

Athens, we're not trying to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. But you have said before that a Winter bid should be sidelined indefinitely while the USOC pursues a Summer bid because a Winter hosting would be "catastrophic for American Olympic fans." That's a far cry from exhausting all options for 2024 and if nothing emerges, then consider 2026. I know I'm going to a post from 2 1/2 years ago, but again, don't make it seem like the rest of us are complete idiots for thinking something that wasn't said. This was said. Should I quote the post where you said that the IOC picking Reno (granted, this was back when 2022 might have still been an option) would be a mistake because it might be so bad that the IOC wouldn't ever want to come back here?

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Quaker, you are taking those comments out of context. They are not contradictory to my more recent posts.

First, those comments were made 2 and 3/4 YEARS AGO about 2022. You cannot suddenly apply them to 2026. That post does not say that Winter Games should wait indefinitely for a Summer host. It simply says that 2022 should bow to interested parties for 2024/28. I totally stand by that. The previous post makes no mention of what should happen if there are no interested parties for 2024/2028 (and as Baron would lovingly point out, we don't know that to be true anyway).

"ANY winter bid" still refers to SLC, Reno and Denver -- all three of which are dicey at best. It's not as though I'm dismissing some glittering, wonderful option. None of those weak winter hopefuls should preempt a quality bid from one of the big 4 that would come a mere 2-6 years later. Surely you can see the sense in that. The only slight modulation in my view is that I've softened a bit on Denver and if there is no real interest in 2024/2028 (which is a big "if") I would be interested in seeing what Denver came up with -- something I've also been saying for YEARS.

I do think it is vital that the US host Summer Games before more Winter Games. I absolutely believe that Reno would be an embarrassment, but I also believe that the USOC would see that, therefore I've changed my tune on this point. There's no point in me arguing against Reno, because Reno makes that argument all on its own. It doesn't matter if the posters on these boards are convinced of Reno's deficiencies or not. The USOC and IOC will see it for themselves, therefore I don't need to waste my breath. Even if the USOC offered Reno as the candidate, I really believe the IOC would choose to go anywhere else.

On a personal note, Quaker, several things are troubling about your post:

  • First, you hunted back 32 months to find a post that you could quote out of context and twist into an argument.
  • Second, you raked me over the coals for the original post way back when.
  • Third, now you're raking me over the coals again because you claim I'm changing my mind. Personally, I think people are entitled to change their minds at any time, but especially over the span of nearly three years.
  • Fourth, you still claim that you don't want to pick a fight when it's obvious you'll go to any lengths to do so.

The fact is I am not changing my mind at all. I stand by the original post and I stand by the more recent ones.

Find me a post where I wrote, "I don't care if we wait until doomsday for a Summer candidate to emerge. I don't care if we have the best Winter candidate of all time waiting in the wings. All that matters is hosting Summer Games and not hosting Winter Games. No cost is too high." Then you can accuse me of changing my mind.

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Let's face it. The lack of interesting Olympic news has significantly dampened the entertainment value of these boards. To compensate, you guys are picking fights as a way of amusing yourselves. That's all there is to it. It's a waste of time and energy.

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Crystal Mountain has a vertical in excess of 900m and is I think is no further from Seattle, than Vancouver is from Whistler. There are also a number of potential hills for ski jumping, freestyle, snowboarding, slalom events in the Snoqualmie Resorts closer to the city. With the ShoWare Center, Tacoma Dome, Key Arena and new Seattle Arena, there are also a number of indoor arenas which could be used for the indoor events - The Tacoma Dome I believe is big enough to fit a speed skating track and still meet the IOC capacity requirements.

Is this Crystal Mountain even in use as a desirable skiing destination? And the other thing is Seattle is pretty much in the same 'hood as Vancouver, so why go back to that NW corner of the continent so soon? Seattle would share the same native-American stories, local culture as Vancouver already used for their Games. So, really, what's the point?

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First, those comments were made 2 and 3/4 YEARS AGO about 2022. You cannot suddenly apply them to 2026.

OK, here's your quote from the first page of another thread. Took <10 seconds to find.

-- If the US were to host Winter Games in either 2022 or 2026, it is probable that the next North American Summer Games would be held in Canada -- potentially forcing the United States to wait until the 40s or 50s for Summer Games on home soil. In this age of ever-shrinking attention spans and an ever-broadening buffet of entertainment options, I question whether American appetites for the Olympics could survive a 50-year gap between domestic Summer Games.

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Is this Crystal Mountain even in use as a desirable skiing destination? And the other thing is Seattle is pretty much in the same 'hood as Vancouver, so why go back to that NW corner of the continent so soon? Seattle would share the same native-American stories, local culture as Vancouver already used for their Games. So, really, what's the point?

Not saying it would, just saying it can. Nevada is not that far from the North West. Munich and St Moritz are in the same 'hood' as Turin but no-one bats an eye about going there.

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OK, here's your quote from the first page of another thread. Took <10 seconds to find.

-- If the US were to host Winter Games in either 2022 or 2026, it is probable that the next North American Summer Games would be held in Canada -- potentially forcing the United States to wait until the 40s or 50s for Summer Games on home soil. In this age of ever-shrinking attention spans and an ever-broadening buffet of entertainment options, I question whether American appetites for the Olympics could survive a 50-year gap between domestic Summer Games.

READ.

That post does not say that that we should dismiss all Winter bids indefinitely in favor of Summer ones. IT SIMPLY DOESN'T SAY IT.

I stand by every word of that post you quoted. It is true that if the US gets 2026 American Summer Games will be postponed a good deal longer and I do think that would be detrimental. That doesn't contradict anything I've written recently.

The above post does not address what happens if a Summer bid is an impossibility (and again, who knows if it is or not at this point?). As I just wrote, in the event that there are no good Summer options for 2024/28 and there IS a good winter option for 2026, it would be stupid not to consider it. I do think it would be very sad to have Summer Games postponed further, but if there are no options, there are no options. Personally, I don't think that will happen.

I have never and will never say that all Winter bids, irrespective of quality, should be side-lined indefinitely in favor of Summer bids.

I never said it. I never believed it. Quit accusing me of it.

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And now I should clarify what I mean by "Personally, I don't think that will happen."

I do not think it's like that no American city will want to host Summer Games in 2024 or 2028. I will not, however, hazard a guess as to which edition of the Games the USOC will target. I have no idea if they will stick with Summer or give up and switch to Winter instead.

Read "I do not think it's likely..."

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Not saying it would, just saying it can. Nevada is not that far from the North West. Munich and St Moritz are in the same 'hood' as Turin but no-one bats an eye about going there.

No; but Vancouver just happened 2 years ago. I mean if the USOC...and I have to be careful here lest AF hyperventilate :lol: should say, present the Reno-Tahoe bid, it would be for, say 2026, (#1) it's technically NOT in the same NW, evergreen region of the continent; Nevada/Calif is considered more "high desert/ SIerra Nevada range" than lush, evergreen, Olympic mts/Cascades region of Vancouver-Seattle-Portland; and (#2) it would be 24 years from Salt Lake City (to which it would be the closest too). But anyway, Seattle and whatever its ski regions are, haven't even evinced an effort to put together a bid. So...

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No; but Vancouver just happened 2 years ago. I mean if the USOC...and I have to be careful here lest AF hyperventilate :lol: should say, present the Reno-Tahoe bid, it would be for, say 2026, (#1) it's technically NOT in the same NW, evergreen region of the continent; Nevada/Calif is considered more "high desert/ SIerra Nevada range" than lush, evergreen, Olympic mts/Cascades region of Vancouver-Seattle-Portland; and (#2) it would be 24 years from Salt Lake City (to which it would be the closest too). But anyway, Seattle and whatever its ski regions are, haven't even evinced an effort to put together a bid. So...

Turin2006 - next Alps games 2022

Vancouver 2010 - Seattle 2026?

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Let's face it. The lack of interesting Olympic news has significantly dampened the entertainment value of these boards. To compensate, you guys are picking fights as a way of amusing yourselves. That's all there is to it. It's a waste of time and energy.

No, the forcefulness with which some people try and defend their positions (and that one isn't really directed at you) is what has dampened the entertainment value of these boards. The inevitable topic drift is what has dampened the entertainment value of these boards. I'm all for discussion about future bids (mostly that which is at least somewhat based in reality), full well knowing that there isn't going to be a ton of fresh news on a regular basis. That said...

On a personal note, Quaker, several things are troubling about your post:

  • First, you hunted back 32 months to find a post that you could quote out of context and twist into an argument.
  • Second, you raked me over the coals for the original post way back when.
  • Third, now you're raking me over the coals again because you claim I'm changing my mind. Personally, I think people are entitled to change their minds at any time, but especially over the span of nearly three years.
  • Fourth, you still claim that you don't want to pick a fight when it's obvious you'll go to any lengths to do so.

1) - That post was on the first page of THIS thread. Didn't take that look to find. I'm simply agreeing with something that zeke pointed out that I feel he's correct about. If anything, it almost adds a little context to the idea that you were that fervent in your argument somewhat specific to Reno.

2) - Yes, I disagreed with your premise then just as I disagree now. I believe that your OPINION (there's no facts involved here) is incorrect and we've been having an ongoing debate about it. Why else do these boards exist if not for that?

3) - You're allowed to change your mind. I've said many times I'll say something I strongly believe full well knowing new information may come along later. You're darn right I'm saying your message seems to have changed even though you claim it hasn't. Which leads me to..

4) - Once again, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I'm guessing zeke isn't either. But this seems to happen a lot.. we'll have a nice sane discussion/debate. Then someone will say the other person took something out of context. And it all snowballs out of control from there to the point we're just flinging accusations and have completely forgotten what the point is.

The thing that bothers me is that you'll say "I didn't say that" or "that's not what I meant" and in the course of us looking for context, now it's our fault you weren't clear enough. Or it was our misinterpretation that led to the confusion. I get that there are some strong personalities on this board whom I consider responsible for hurting the entertainment value of these boards (and no, you're not at the top of that list for me). Bottom line for me.. it gets frustrating when we're trying to interpret your posts and then you say we got it wrong when we have the exact line to offer up. Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there! Black and white, clear as crystal! You STOLE Fizzy-Lifting Drinks! You BUMPED into the ceiling, which now has to be washed and sterilized, so you get... NOTHING!!! You lose! GOOD DAY, SIR!

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I believe that your OPINION (there's no facts involved here) is incorrect and we've been having an ongoing debate about it.

How can an opinion be incorrect? If there are "no facts involved here" as you say, then why are you laboring to prove me "wrong"?

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The thing that bothers me is that you'll say "I didn't say that" or "that's not what I meant" and in the course of us looking for context, now it's our fault you weren't clear enough. Or it was our misinterpretation that led to the confusion. I get that there are some strong personalities on this board whom I consider responsible for hurting the entertainment value of these boards (and no, you're not at the top of that list for me). Bottom line for me.. it gets frustrating when we're trying to interpret your posts and then you say we got it wrong when we have the exact line to offer up.

Quaker, I do appreciate the your tone.

Part of why I have been so frustrated with you and some others where this topic is concerned is that I feel like you have ALWAYS misinterpreted my position. When I explain it, very often you (or someone else) corrects me and in effect says, "No, that's not what you meant." I know what I meant better than anyone else. If I had changed my mind on this topic, I would just say that. I have no problem saying, "Ok guys, you convinced me and I've had a change of heart."

The only reason I'm arguing with you is that quite truthfully my opinion really isn't any different at all.

You seem to feel you've found a smoking gun of some kind to prove that I've had some sort of about-face experience. That is frustrating for me because neither the post that you quoted nor the post that Zeke quoted says that "all Winter bids should be tabled irregardless of quality indefinitely." I never thought that. I never said it.

I feel like you guys have conjured up some sort of exagerrated idea of what my beliefs are that clouds your ability to read what I'm actually writing.

From the get go, I have argued that Summer Games should be the priority. That hasn't changed.

From the get go, I have said that a lackluster Winter bid shouldn't be allowed to derail a quality Summer bid that would come a mere 2-4 years later. That hasn't changed.

Being open to Denver as a possibility is something I've mentioned MANY times. That hasn't changed either and yet that seems to be what got you fired up.

Let me be clear: I hope the USOC will explore every possible option for fielding a quality Summer bid for 2024 (and if that fails 2028 or 2032). I think it would be a mistake to put forward a mediocre Winter bid (that COULD win if the field is weak enough) out of mere impatience. However, if (and this is the part I think is unlikely) the USOC concludes that no capable American city wants to host Summer Games in the foreseeable future, they might as well turn their attention to the Winter options. I just really think it's improbable that the situation will come to that.

I read all those old posts and I look at the new ones and I just don't see a contradiction. I'm not sitting here embarrassed thinking to myself "Darn it! They caught me!" I AM sitting here thinking to myself, "Yeah, I totally agree with what I wrote back then. It doesn't say what they're claiming it says."

That's where I am at this point.

Ok. I have to say, I can't believe I typed "irregardless." That isn't a word! I've never used it before. I'm not sure how it sneaked in there. Anyway, please read "regardless."

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