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LuigiVercotti
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I am in the opinion Toronto should not bid.

Not yet at least. Not enough time between now and September to figure out how the hell they're actually going to make it work. I would only want them to put in a bid to gain the experience of bidding again, so that they come much better prepared. I would totally support a 2028 Toronto bid even over a US bid, with the exception of bids from a couple of cities and a tiredass LA bid is not one of them!

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I am in the opinion Toronto should bid.

In this context, do you truly believe Toronto would appeal to voters with the potential choices they'll have? The field is too strong, and the timing is off. It would be an uphill battle for a U.S. City for 2024, let alone Canada.

That said, if the Europe/ USA / Africa cycle plays out, Toronto would be an obvious choice for 2036 - but even then cities like Dubai, Istanbul and a swathe of East Asian cities (Shanghai, KL, etc) would be lining up.

I just think Toronto would face a similar upset to Chicago if it goes forward for 2024 - too many factors could rationalise it being eliminated early.

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This city has just as much to offer as any other city, its just not a media darling, yet. I've lived in Paris, London, San Francisco, Vancouver and Chicago. Visited many others around the world, this city can stand toe to toe with any other, it just needs to be presented with a strong and appealing bid, that's what we'll have to work on.

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You haven't beaten Paris before in any real sense. You got more votes than them in a race which was skewed beyond analysis by a heavy favourite, with two European hosts prior to 2008.

That should give no encouragement or discouragement to future bids, it's simply not relevent.

This race looks difficult for Toronto, but as far as I'm concerned the more the merrier. Yeah, throw your hat in! Why not? Gives us something to talk about here :lol:

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This race looks difficult for Toronto, but as far as I'm concerned the more the merrier. Yeah, throw your hat in! Why not? Gives us something to talk about here :lol:

Yeah, really. Throw in Madrid in there too!! Oh what a great FLAME WAR that would be between two groups of tailor-making obnoxious arguments, & extremely naive camps that would be! Bring it on!! Lmfao!!! :-D

Blah, blah, we have nothing to lose.

Except for the bid. :-P

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If we don't try we won't win. We've beaten Paris before, its not impossible.

And these type of comments remind me the stans of Madrid 2020. "We were as runner-ups against Rio. We must win now". Races are different and considering that Toronto only "beat" Paris by only 4 or 5 votes while Beijing duplicate the voting of the other contenders together and it came after Athens, it's not exactly a full victory.

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I remember reading through some of the comments leading up to the Tokyo 2020 bid win, most of you guys sounded like Istanbul had it in the bag...never met a more negative, anal-retentive, uptight bunch in all my life. Year after year, just pissing on others attempts and most of the times you guys are wrong about who will win (it's not hard to be right about who will lose if you piss on 4 out of 5 bids each time)...

Winning Summer Olympic bids is always an uphill climb with greater chance of missing the mark than not but upsets have and do happen. If one can afford to risk, stands to gain from winning even while acknowledging there's a strong chance at failure, then why not. Schadenfreude is for losers.

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I remember reading through some of the comments leading up to the Tokyo 2020 bid win, most of you guys sounded like Istanbul had it in the bag...never met a more negative, anal-retentive, uptight bunch in all my life. Year after year, just pissing on others attempts and most of the times you guys are wrong about who will win (it's not hard to be right about who will lose if you piss on 4 out of 5 bids each time)...

Delusional much? If checking more closely the threads of 2020, Tokyo was the pedicted winner by many people here, especially when passing the race, it was the "safe" option. Istanbul had passionate votes, no doubt and we'e thinkkng it could upset but when Tokyo overcome the biggest weakness - Public Support, it was the frontrunner.

Equal happened with other races like Beijing, Rio and Athens. Even with the "negativity" you express (Which it's only a fair criticism related to a conscious analysis), Gamesbids has a long history of right predictions around the Net.

And if you consider the 2022 Winter Olympics as a wrong prediction, you need to considerate the events which make the current race.

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Delusional much? If checking more closely the threads of 2020, Tokyo was the pedicted winner by many people here, especially when passing the race, it was the "safe" option. Istanbul had passionate votes, no doubt and we'e thinkkng it could upset but when Tokyo overcome the biggest weakness - Public Support, it was the frontrunner..

Exactly. And not only support, but also some of the people saying that Tokyo couldn't win because of PyeongChang 2018. I certainly didn't subscribe to the "Istanbul has it in the bag" mantra. Those were just some of the few nostalgic new frontier boosters that were saying that.

And I remember the ones saying that Madrid was going to win, even with all of its issues, (besides the delusional Spainards), were several Canadians, simply for the fact so that Europe could be outta the way for 2024 so they can have a better chance to bid. But Europe is indeed very much in the way now for 2024.

The people that are mainly "wrong" here are the ones without a truly objective perspective. In all seriousness, even if the U.S. was bidding for 2024 with its creme-de-la-creme city, New York City, I still wouldn't like its chances very much against Paris (or even Hamburg & Rome). Geopolitically, 2024 is Europe's to lose. The earliest I can see North America having a good shot is 2028. And that's if South Africa doesn't join the fray then. Otherwise 2032 is going to be the earliest.

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And let me add, I have nothing against Toronto. If any case, in a race among North America bidders, Toronto can be a great opponent to overcome many of the US bids in the right hands (As I said before, 1996 and 2008 bids showed that). Unfortunally, in these type of races, geopolitics and opportunity plays a big role.

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The question is, does Toronto want a similar bid to 2008, or are they willing to go "bare bones" and use as much existing infrastructure/venues as possible, regardless if it's as compact as 2008 or not?

A "bare bones" bid would see the main stadium, aquatics centre, Olympic/Media Villages and Main Media Centre downtown. No other key venues of note, not as compact as 2008, but will use maximum use of venues in the region, like the 2015 Pan Ams.

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Toronto has all the advantages of staging the Games in the US without the drawbacks.

And everybody finds the Canadians are nice people.

mcg20h.gif

Toronto has just as much drawbacks in hosting as any US city, if not more drawbacks. Anyone who has visited the city and looked at the capacities and locations for potential venues will know that instantly.

For one, the current venues being used for the Pan American Games will be inadmissible in a Summer Olympic games bid. They are way too small, some even only a fraction of the size of Olympic-capacity. The current athletics stadium for the Pan American games is at a capacity of 12,000. In Rio, the Athletics stadium will hold up to about 60,000 spectators, and it's not the location for the opening and closing ceremonies. Toronto, just like most cities in the US, will have to build a new Athletics stadium from scratch. But not only do they have to build it to accommodate the track and field events, it WILL have to also accommodate the opening and closing ceremonies because Roger's Centre maximum 50k-ish capacity will not do for the o/c ceremonies. While most, if not all, US bids are faced with the issue of building an Olympic-sized athletics stadium, there are plenty of venues readily available to host an adequate-sized o/c ceremony. Also, many cities, just like Los Angeles, have venues in place that are at Olympic-capacity.

Not only are a lot of the venues currently being used for the Pan American Games inadequate, the locations of the venues are too spread out as well. While Agenda2020 may call for a more spread out games in favor of saving money in the host city's cost, if a bid presents a more compact venue plan without breaking the bank, they will definitely favor a plan like Toronto's. Yes I know not every venue can be located within city limits (like canoing, kayaking and rowing), but indoor events like boxing, weightlifting, table tennis and wrestling should be able to be held within city limits. And bringing events closer together faces another problem because a lot of Toronto already has well-established areas where there's no room for any form of construction. Downtown Toronto is specifically one of these areas that has little to no room to grow. And Toronto laws and regulations may not even welcome trying to create closer-knit clusters for an Olympic games. Some cities in the US don't have those types of issues. Either they have more relaxed zoning laws, or like Houston (4th largest city in the US) we don't have any zoning laws.

But I agree Toronto is a friendly city with friendly people, and right now they're probably in full support of bidding on an Olympic games. But if it hadn't been for the Pan American games, the public support to spend money to host the Olympics would probably be about as equal to or worse than Boston's current support is. Support is high right now, but once the Pan American Games are gone, little by little that support will diminish. It will be high for a 2024 bid, but if/when Toronto loses that bid, support will diminish going into a 2028 bid, that is if it even gets to that point. A referendum can kill that opportunity.

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Toronto has the Pan Ams and a strong technical bid but reastically this is Europe's to lose. However Toronto could bid and hope for a 2022 repeat

The referendum looks like it should pass in Hamburg, whislt Italy and France won't be having referendums. You'll have to beat at least one, but likely four (inc Budapest) European cities to host. If you think that's possible then bid. if you don't think it's possible, probably not a good idea to bid hoping to be the Homer Simpson of Olympic Host Cities

Edited by Rob.
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mcg20h.gif

Toronto has just as much drawbacks in hosting as any US city, if not more drawbacks. Anyone who has visited the city and looked at the capacities and locations for potential venues will know that instantly.

For one, the current venues being used for the Pan American Games will be inadmissible in a Summer Olympic games bid. They are way too small, some even only a fraction of the size of Olympic-capacity. The current athletics stadium for the Pan American games is at a capacity of 12,000. In Rio, the Athletics stadium will hold up to about 60,000 spectators, and it's not the location for the opening and closing ceremonies. Toronto, just like most cities in the US, will have to build a new Athletics stadium from scratch. But not only do they have to build it to accommodate the track and field events, it WILL have to also accommodate the opening and closing ceremonies because Roger's Centre maximum 50k-ish capacity will not do for the o/c ceremonies. While most, if not all, US bids are faced with the issue of building an Olympic-sized athletics stadium, there are plenty of venues readily available to host an adequate-sized o/c ceremony. Also, many cities, just like Los Angeles, have venues in place that are at Olympic-capacity.

Not only are a lot of the venues currently being used for the Pan American Games inadequate, the locations of the venues are too spread out as well. While Agenda2020 may call for a more spread out games in favor of saving money in the host city's cost, if a bid presents a more compact venue plan without breaking the bank, they will definitely favor a plan like Toronto's. Yes I know not every venue can be located within city limits (like canoing, kayaking and rowing), but indoor events like boxing, weightlifting, table tennis and wrestling should be able to be held within city limits. And bringing events closer together faces another problem because a lot of Toronto already has well-established areas where there's no room for any form of construction. Downtown Toronto is specifically one of these areas that has little to no room to grow. And Toronto laws and regulations may not even welcome trying to create closer-knit clusters for an Olympic games. Some cities in the US don't have those types of issues. Either they have more relaxed zoning laws, or like Houston (4th largest city in the US) we don't have any zoning laws.

But I agree Toronto is a friendly city with friendly people, and right now they're probably in full support of bidding on an Olympic games. But if it hadn't been for the Pan American games, the public support to spend money to host the Olympics would probably be about as equal to or worse than Boston's current support is. Support is high right now, but once the Pan American Games are gone, little by little that support will diminish. It will be high for a 2024 bid, but if/when Toronto loses that bid, support will diminish going into a 2028 bid, that is if it even gets to that point. A referendum can kill that opportunity.

You are not being truthful in some of that analysis. Many Pan Am venues can be used, just not necessarily for the events they are being used for at the Pan Ams. You also have to remember that the ACC and the Toronto Exhibition Centre are not being used for the Pan Ams but would be used for an Olympics.

As someone that is an Ontarian and lives relatively close to Toronto, if the IOC wants us to build unnecessary sports halls and venues in Toronto instead of using venues like the Hershey Centre and GM Place then the IOC can keep their Games and send them off to Russia or China.

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According to the list of venues Toronto Exhibition Centre is being used to host events for the Pan Am games, unless you're talking about another exhibit on center that isn't located at Exhibition Place.

And why didn't they use ACC for any event? Too pricy to rent? The unwillingness to change the name of the venue? It could have hosted any number of events there.

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Toronto has just as much drawbacks in hosting as any US city, if not more drawbacks. Anyone who has visited the city and looked at the capacities and locations for potential venues will know that instantly.

Now to be fair, Toronto would have fewer drawbacks than, say, Tulsa Las Vegas.

And even though Canadians are really nice, and the Pan-Am games are going well, I'm not so sure you would have sky-high support for spending $billions and $billions on a SOG.

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Toronto has just as much drawbacks in hosting as any US city, if not more drawbacks.

Infrastructure and democratic input into government spending problems yes. International political problems no.

@Faster:

I agree that Canada should not bid if it needs to build a lot of unsuitable venues, but keep in mind that was also the argument a lot of Boston 2024 advocates used to say that a Boston bid would be a good idea. The IOC cares more about pleasing its broadcast partners and maintaining its brand with sponsors than it cares about the long term needs of the host cities. So they very likely will choose to go to China or Russia instead of an "inferior" experience in a city like Boston or Toronto.

Also, people tend to ignore the non-sporting venues. If Toronto is planning on using its major exhibition centers for sports venues, that requires building a new press center and a new international broadcast center.

Edited by Nacre
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Infrastructure and democratic input into government spending problems yes. International political problems no.

@Faster:

I agree that Canada should not bid if it needs to build a lot of unsuitable venues, but keep in mind that was also the argument a lot of Boston 2024 advocates used to say that a Boston bid would be a good idea. The IOC cares more about pleasing its broadcast partners and maintaining its brand with sponsors than it cares about the long term needs of the host cities. So they very likely will choose to go to China or Russia instead of an "inferior" experience in a city like Boston or Toronto.

Also, people tend to ignore the non-sporting venues. If Toronto is planning on using its major exhibition centers for sports venues, that requires building a new press center and a new international broadcast center.

If Toronto could still go with the docklands development as the center of an Olympic bid, they would likely build the IBC on site near the main stadium.

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If Toronto could still go with the docklands development as the center of an Olympic bid, they would likely build the IBC on site near the main stadium.

Just like the 2008 plan, the IBC will ideally be located in the Olympic village on the Portlands. And yes, Toronto "could still go with" this kind of development for its bid. The land is there ready for the taking as it has all the space necessary for an Olympic village. This prime real estate is one of the major strengths to Toronto's bid.

The MPC will most likely be located at the MTCC. If I'm not mistaken that was the site in the 2008 bid. For 2024, this site would offer a bigger and much more modern space compared to 2008. Oxford Properties currently has a master plan to fully develop the land around this area which includes Office Tower developments, 2 new hotel towers, 5.5 acre park replacing an existing rail corridor and a massive expansion of the Metro Toronto Convention Centre.

Edited by dave199
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