Toronto?

[intoronto]

Any rumblings?

None at all.

[intoronto]

Anyways I have come up with an updated venue proposal.

Sport - City - Venue - # of seats

Archery - Toronto - E.T.Seton Park (temporary) 6,000

Athletics - Toronto - Olympic Stadium - 84,000

Badminton - Direct Energy center Hall A - 5,000

Basketball - Toronto - Air Canada Center - 19,000

Boxing - Toronto - Direct Energy center Hall C - 7,000

Canoeing (sprint) - Toronto - Canoe/Rowing center - 12,000

Canoeing (slalom) - Toronto - New stadium (temporary) - 6,000

Cycling (Road) - Toronto - Road course - N/A

Cycling (Track) - Toronto - Velodrome/Multi sport center - 6,000

Cycling (BMX) - Toronto - Where ever they build it for the 2015PAG - 5,000

Cycling (Mountain) - Toronto - Don Valley race course (temporary) - 6,000

Diving - Toronto - Toronto Aquatic Center - 15,000 (expansion)

Equestrian - Toronto - Toronto Equestrian Stadium - 15,000

Fencing - Toronto - Field house - 6,000 (expansion)

Field hockey - Toronto - U.of T hockey stadium and Lamport Stadium - 8,000 (expansion) 10,000 (renovation)

Football - Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa - BMO Field (23,000) Rogers Center (50,600) Olympic Stadium (84,000), Ivor Wynne Stadium (40,000) and Frank Clair Stadium (40,000)

Golf - Toronto - St. George's Golf and Country Club - N/A

Gymnastics - Toronto - National Trade Center hall B - 20,000

Handball - Toronto - Ricoh Coliseum - 8,000

Judo - Toronto - Metro Toronto Convention center - 6,000

Modern Pentathlon - Toronto - Toronto Aquatic Center/Field house and Toronto Equestrian Stadium - 15,000/6,000/15,000

Rowing - Toronto - Canoe/Rowing center - 12,000

Rugby - Toronto - Rogers Center - 50,600

Sailing - Royal Canadian Yacht Club - Toronto - N/A

Shooting - Olympic Shooting center /E.T.Seton Park (temporary) - Toronto - 5,050/6,000

Swimming - Toronto - Toronto Aquatic Center - 15,000 (expansion)

Synchronized swimming - Toronto - Toronto Aquatic Center - 15,000 (expansion

Table tennis - Direct Energy center Hall D - 7,000

Taekwondo - Toronto - Metro Toronto Convention center - 6,000

Tennis - Toronto - Rexall Center@ York university - 12,000

Triathlon - Toronto - Exhibition Place Race course (temporary) - 10,000

Volleyball - Toronto - Volleyball arena (temporary) - 12,000

Water Polo - Toronto - Etobicoke Olympium (Expansion/renovation) - 4,926

Weightlifting - Toronto - Molson Ampitheatre - 11,000

Wrestling - Toronto - Velodrome/Multi sport center - 6,000

All venues (besides football) are located in the city and are all accessible by transit by 2020! Very good bid probably the best technical bid possible.

Tell me what do you think!

[dave199]

I think some of the capacities would be larger such as the Olympic Stadium. I'm thinking atleast 90k to 100k which would then be scaled down after the Games. Toronto is accessible to a big market in North America and is a days drive from some of North America's biggest cities. Toronto would have easy access to a really lucrative market.

[Texas]

I think some of the capacities would be larger such as the Olympic Stadium. I'm thinking atleast 90k to 100k which would then be scaled down after the Games. Toronto is accessible to a big market in North America and is a days drive from some of North America's biggest cities. Toronto would have easy access to a really lucrative market.

If the plan is for the Olympic Stadium to someday be the home venue of an NFL team, the stadium won't scale down that much. 70,000 would seem to be the perfect number. It would still be relatively new and the NFL may not be able to resist passing on a new stadium North of the border.

[stryker]

Anyways I have come up with an updated venue proposal.

Sport - City - Venue - # of seats

Archery - Toronto - E.T.Seton Park (temporary) 6,000

Athletics - Toronto - Olympic Stadium - 84,000

Badminton - Direct Energy center Hall A - 5,000

Basketball - Toronto - Air Canada Center - 19,000

Boxing - Toronto - Direct Energy center Hall C - 7,000

Canoeing (sprint) - Toronto - Canoe/Rowing center - 12,000

Canoeing (slalom) - Toronto - New stadium (temporary) - 6,000

Cycling (Road) - Toronto - Road course - N/A

Cycling (Track) - Toronto - Velodrome/Multi sport center - 6,000

Cycling (BMX) - Toronto - Where ever they build it for the 2015PAG - 5,000

Cycling (Mountain) - Toronto - Don Valley race course (temporary) - 6,000

Diving - Toronto - Toronto Aquatic Center - 15,000 (expansion)

Equestrian - Toronto - Toronto Equestrian Stadium - 15,000

Fencing - Toronto - Field house - 6,000 (expansion)

Field hockey - Toronto - U.of T hockey stadium and Lamport Stadium - 8,000 (expansion) 10,000 (renovation)

Football - Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa - BMO Field (23,000) Rogers Center (50,600) Olympic Stadium (84,000), Ivor Wynne Stadium (40,000) and Frank Clair Stadium (40,000)

Golf - Toronto - St. George's Golf and Country Club - N/A

Gymnastics - Toronto - National Trade Center hall B - 20,000

Handball - Toronto - Ricoh Coliseum - 8,000

Judo - Toronto - Metro Toronto Convention center - 6,000

Modern Pentathlon - Toronto - Toronto Aquatic Center/Field house and Toronto Equestrian Stadium - 15,000/6,000/15,000

Rowing - Toronto - Canoe/Rowing center - 12,000

Rugby - Toronto - Rogers Center - 50,600

Sailing - Royal Canadian Yacht Club - Toronto - N/A

Shooting - Olympic Shooting center /E.T.Seton Park (temporary) - Toronto - 5,050/6,000

Swimming - Toronto - Toronto Aquatic Center - 15,000 (expansion)

Synchronized swimming - Toronto - Toronto Aquatic Center - 15,000 (expansion

Table tennis - Direct Energy center Hall D - 7,000

Taekwondo - Toronto - Metro Toronto Convention center - 6,000

Tennis - Toronto - Rexall Center@ York university - 12,000

Triathlon - Toronto - Exhibition Place Race course (temporary) - 10,000

Volleyball - Toronto - Volleyball arena (temporary) - 12,000

Water Polo - Toronto - Etobicoke Olympium (Expansion/renovation) - 4,926

Weightlifting - Toronto - Molson Ampitheatre - 11,000

Wrestling - Toronto - Velodrome/Multi sport center - 6,000

All venues (besides football) are located in the city and are all accessible by transit by 2020! Very good bid probably the best technical bid possible.

Tell me what do you think!

Interesting. I would like perfer to see Rogers Centre used in a similar way to what Atlanta did with the Georgia Dome, close the roof and divide it into two seperate arenas for gymnastics, handball, and basketball. I would move preliminary rounds for volleyball to the Hershey Centre in Mississauga and use the Air Canada Centre for basketball and the volleyball finals. I think BMO Field would be a natural venue for rugby sevens and while it would increase travel time, it would be nice to see either Calgary, Vancouver, or Montreal host some football prelims as a nod to Canada's Olympic past. Just my opinion.

[intoronto]

Interesting. I would like perfer to see Rogers Centre used in a similar way to what Atlanta did with the Georgia Dome, close the roof and divide it into two seperate arenas for gymnastics, handball, and basketball. I would move preliminary rounds for volleyball to the Hershey Centre in Mississauga and use the Air Canada Centre for basketball and the volleyball finals. I think BMO Field would be a natural venue for rugby sevens and while it would increase travel time, it would be nice to see either Calgary, Vancouver, or Montreal host some football prelims as a nod to Canada's Olympic past. Just my opinion.

Good thoughts, I was going for the most compact bid possible, and that Rogers Center idea is a smart one.

[Lord David]

Montreal Calgary. Vancouver and the capital Ottawa.

Doesn't Toronto already have a dedicated Rugby Park? Why not use that and have BMO Field as Football Prelims.

If you want more cities for Football Prelims, add Regina or Edmonton and Winnepeg.

[intoronto]

Montreal Calgary. Vancouver and the capital Ottawa.

Doesn't Toronto already have a dedicated Rugby Park? Why not use that and have BMO Field as Football Prelims.

If you want more cities for Football Prelims, add Regina or Edmonton and Winnepeg.

The thing is the cities are in different time zones which will create problems, in 2008 the venues proposed were a Stadium at York University (were I happen to attend ), Vaughn which the site proposed was a ten minute drive from Y.University, Oakville which is an outer suburb of Toronto, the Olympic Stadium and Ottawa's Frank Clair Stadium.

Toronto does have a dedicated park but its too small only 3,000 @ york University that could change though as the rugby competitions whill be held there in 2015. Of course BMO Field would be used for prelims (the field is too small for rugby).

[intoronto]

Going back through the old toronto venue plan for 2008 I have to say it was better then Beijing (in terms of capacity and compactness).

http://web.archive.org/web/20010528191251/http://www.to-2008.com/english/venue_526.asp

[Sir Rols]

Whoa! Looks like there's a fair bit of bitterness about the mayor's office passing on a Toronto bid!

Wong-Tam open letter blasts Doug Ford’s ‘special privileges’

The Ford administration’s unilateral decision to pass on a Toronto bid for the 2020 Olympic Games reflects a “worrying pattern” of disrespect for council’s input, says councillor Kristyn Wong-Tam.

In an open letter simmering with frustration over Mayor Rob Ford’s style of governance, the downtown councillor also took aim Wednesday at the “special privileges” afforded to Councillor Doug Ford, who has assumed a high-profile role in his brother’s administration and was apparently privy to the decision not to pursue a bid.

The Ford brothers “disrespected our roles as elected representatives [in making] a decision by fiat without council consideration,” Ms. Wong-Tam (Toronto Centre-Rosedale) wrote in her letter.

“Why is it that the process and the democratic institutions that we were elected to uphold, why are they being discarded?” she fumed in a follow-up interview, noting councillors have a responsibility to their residents to consider major proposals that could affect the city.

“When [the mayor] shuts the door on 43 members of council, he is shutting the door on the residents that they serve.”

News leaked in August that a group of business, labour, community and athletic leaders had approached the mayor’s office about putting together an “exploratory committee” for a possible Olympic bid. The mayor’s office swiftly nixed the idea due to cost concerns; Toronto had until Thursday to express interest in hosting the major summer sporting event.

While Ms. Wong-Tam opened her letter with a request to the city manager to publicize details of why the Olympic bid was rejected without council consideration, the two-page text also spoke to her larger concerns about the mayor’s political modus operandi, Ms. Wong-Tam traced the problem back to Mr. Ford’s first day as mayor, when he declared Transit City dead.

“[You] have since been operating on the premise that your unilateral decree overrides the democratic processes of civic government,” she said.

The Mayor declined to comment on the letter, saying he had not yet read it. His brother, Councillor Ford (Etobicoke North), said left-wingers on council were simply “playing politics” with the Olympics, a notion deputy mayor Doug Holyday supported.

“Brothers are brothers and they’re bound to talk more than other councillors,” said Mr. Holyday (Etobicoke Centre), noting there was a clear financial disincentive to considering an Olympic bid.

“I’m sad to see that some people are so insensitive to the situation that they want to make a political point of this,” he said.

Councillor Josh Matlow (St. Paul’s) maintained council was entitled to a briefing on the Olympics proposal, at which point members could have discussed the potential benefits and liabilities.

“No member of council, including the Mayor, should be making unilateral statements about city policy until there’s been a vote at council,” he said.

Councillor Adam Vaughan (Trinity-Spadina) concurred, noting the Mayor does not have the right to speak for the entire city. Dismissing the perspectives of the “twin Ford mayors” as essentially interchangeable, Mr. Vaughan contended the Mayor’s style of governance in the months since his election has been driven by “an arrogance born more out of fear than pride.”

He does not begrudge the close partnership between Mayor Ford and his brother. “If my sister was on city council, we’d probably act the same way… they’re a partnership, they’re family, that’s life. The problem is the Mayor saying yes and no to offers to the city without the full council having a chance to understand what the offers are.”

National Post

[intoronto]

Whoa! Looks like there's a fair bit of bitterness about the mayor's office passing on a Toronto bid!

Yup, but 2020 wasn't Toronto's turn, it is setting its self up for 2024 when Mr.Ford will have faced an election (I for one will not for him).

[Sir Rols]

Yup, but 2020 wasn't Toronto's turn, it is setting its self up for 2024 when Mr.Ford will have faced an election (I for one will not for him).

Still, seems like there's a LOT of people who think it was THE great missed opportunity. IMO, I don't know if it would have won, but 2020 would have been far better timing than any of its earlier bids.

[intoronto]

Still, seems like there's a LOT of people who think it was THE great missed opportunity. IMO, I don't know if it would have won, but 2020 would have been far better timing than any of its earlier bids.

I wanted Toronto to bid, but I had a gut feeling 2024 would be a better choice.

Durban isn't winning on its first try.

Salt Lake City bid twice before winning, Athens bid twice before winning 2004, Beijing bid in 2000, Vancouver bid in 1976 and 1980, London is the odd one (but has hosted before), Sochi bid in 2002 Rio bid in 2004 and 2012.

If Europe hosts 2020 and (likely the 2022 WOG) that takes them, South America out of the running. Asia's bid will be Tokyo, but we all know "the 8" is almost a given to be Asia, so lets take them out as well.

That leaves Toronto, USA, South Africa. South Africa as I said earlier will not win with Durban on its first try.

So basically it comes down to Toronto vs USA.

Points for Toronto: Has bid twice, at the time bidding stages hopefully Toronto would have staged a successful Pan American Games (like Rio did and it won 2016), Canada hasn't hosted the Summer Games since 1976 (almost 50 years from 2024), a very compact bid.

Points against: USA, Vancouver closeness (but if Rome wins 2020 that point is moot).

So basically, its USA vs Toronto. Go Toronto!

[Sir Rols]

So basically, its USA vs Toronto. Go Toronto!

One thing is certain - the world won't make it that easy for anybody!

[intoronto]

One thing is certain - the world won't make it that easy for anybody!

Off course it will not be easy as that.

But the circumstances are lining up that way.

[FYI]

Durban isn't winning on its first try.

Salt Lake City bid twice before winning, Athens bid twice before winning 2004, Beijing bid in 2000, Vancouver bid in 1976 and 1980, London is the odd one (but has hosted before), Sochi bid in 2002 Rio bid in 2004 and 2012.

If Europe hosts 2020 and (likely the 2022 WOG) that takes them, South America out of the running. Asia's bid will be Tokyo, but we all know "the 8" is almost a given to be Asia, so lets take them out as well.

That leaves Toronto, USA, South Africa. South Africa as I said earlier will not win with Durban on its first try.

And just how, exactly, do you think that you know this as a "fact". Do you have a crystal ball or something. Or better yet, know the precise idiosyncrasies of 100+ whimsical IOC members that vote in a secret ballot.

Just as there are several examples of bids not winning on their first attempt, there are just as many that HAVE won on their first try. Like Sydney, Nagano, Atlanta, Sarajevo, Munich, Squaw Valley, Grenoble, Oslo, Turin & Albertville.

Your posts are sometimes so presumptuous & absurd. Thinking that you're the messiah of Olympic bids when you've only been around here long enough to barely take notice of one Olympic bid race.

[intoronto]

My posts are mostly "if's" not fact. Presumption is the key to my posts.

All of those bids minus Turin were awarded on 1993 or earlier its twenty years later when 2020 is awarded. Recent history has shown cities have to bid many times to have a shot.

"Your posts are sometimes so presumptuous & absurd" presumptuous yes, absurd no because Toronto or USA bidding is not absurd at all.

[FYI]

That is so simplistic, since some of those "recent" host cities that have won skipped SEVERAL cycles &/or bid only Twice, which hardly translates into "many".

For example, what did Vancouver's 1976 bid have to do with their 2010 one. Obviously Vancouver 2010 didn't just rehash their old 1976 plan. Same with Sochi, it was an 11-year gap between their bids. So in these cases that is irrelavent, because it was practically starting all over again for these cities. And in the other "recent" races, there virtually were no other first-time bidders other than some of those silly Applicant cities that hardly stood any chance anyway.

And I'm not talking about Toronto nor the U.S. It's presumptuous & absurd that you just throw South Africa in the back-burner when they can give Canada & the U.S., or whomever, a good run for their money.

[Sir Rols]

My posts are mostly "if's" not fact. Presumption is the key to my posts.

All of those bids minus Turin were awarded on 1993 or earlier its twenty years later when 2020 is awarded. Recent history has shown cities have to bid many times to have a shot.

"Your posts are sometimes so presumptuous & absurd" presumptuous yes, absurd no because Toronto or USA bidding is not absurd at all.

Mate, no faulting your enthusiasm. And I assume we'll be seeing your here for a while. But I think you've been here long enough that the kid gloves are off. You're no newbie any more, so expect to be picked up on some of your sweeping statements now.

[intoronto]

That is so simplistic, since some of those "recent" host cities that have won skipped SEVERAL cycles &/or bid only Twice, which hardly translates into "many".

For example, what did Vancouver's 1976 bid have to do with their 2010 one. Obviously Vancouver 2010 didn't just rehash their old 1976 plan. Same with Sochi, it was an 11-year gap between their bids. So in these cases that is irrelavent, because it was practically starting all over again for these cities. And in the other "recent" races, there virtually were no other first-time bidders other than some of those silly Applicant cities that hardly stood any chance anyway.

And I'm not talking about Toronto nor the U.S. It's presumptuous & absurd that you just throw South Africa in the back-burner when they can give Canada & the U.S., or whomever, a good run for their money.

TO be honest I really will not say South Africa is the favourite when the its bidding for the first time (Durban). There are members of this board who hold the same opinion as me and so do some IOC members (Nawal of Morocco). However, if Cape Town bids I would say they would become the instant favourite.

[Quaker2001]

TO be honest I really will not say South Africa is the favourite when the its bidding for the first time (Durban). There are members of this board who hold the same opinion as me and so do some IOC members (Nawal of Morocco). However, if Cape Town bids I would say they would become the instant favourite.

Just so I'm clear on your position here.. you don't believe Durban will win as a first time bidder, but if it's Cape Town (who will have bid 20 years earlier with South Africa barely back on the international sports map), they're the favorite? I'm certainly not in the camp that all South Africa needs to do is present a passable bid and they win, but I also think it's naive to dismiss any city from South Africa and say it'll just be USA vs. Toronto.

That and can we please all get away from the notion that the 2028 is pre-ordained for Asia? I know it's 4 in a row that have made that trend, but it's a coincidence, not some concerted effort by the IOC to ensure that every year that ends with 8 goes to Asia. Let's not forget how close `98 was to going to Salt Lake (in a vote that occurred less than a year after Atlanta was awarded). Beijing was a few votes from getting 2000. And PC nearly got 2010 over Vancouver. Maybe it will wind up going Europe 2020 - Africa 2024 - Asia 2028, but if the USOC and Toronto strike out for 2024, who's to say the same race can't play out for 2028 plus a few European cities added in.

[intoronto]

Just so I'm clear on your position here.. you don't believe Durban will win as a first time bidder, but if it's Cape Town (who will have bid 20 years earlier with South Africa barely back on the international sports map), they're the favorite? I'm certainly not in the camp that all South Africa needs to do is present a passable bid and they win, but I also think it's naive to dismiss any city from South Africa and say it'll just be USA vs. Toronto.

That and can we please all get away from the notion that the 2028 is pre-ordained for Asia? I know it's 4 in a row that have made that trend, but it's a coincidence, not some concerted effort by the IOC to ensure that every year that ends with 8 goes to Asia. Let's not forget how close `98 was to going to Salt Lake (in a vote that occurred less than a year after Atlanta was awarded). Beijing was a few votes from getting 2000. And PC nearly got 2010 over Vancouver. Maybe it will wind up going Europe 2020 - Africa 2024 - Asia 2028, but if the USOC and Toronto strike out for 2024, who's to say the same race can't play out for 2028 plus a few European cities added in.

"but I also think it's naive to dismiss any city from South Africa and say it'll just be USA vs. Toronto." I am not dismissing any city, just saying the closeness of other bids winning will hurt them and hosting patterns.

Cape Town bid got a run down of what was wrong with their bid etc. If they present a bid fixing those issues wouldn't that be a better bid them a Durban bid that isn't been scrutinized by the IOC?

[FYI]

There are members of this board who hold the same opinion as me and so do some IOC members (Nawal of Morocco). However, if Cape Town bids I would say they would become the instant favourite.

I could say the exact same thing on the opposite side of the coin. There are other members of this board who hold the same opinion as mine & so do some IOC members. The IOC president himself, Jacques Rogge; which he even went on to say that South Africa is "ready".

[FYI]

Cape Town bid got a run down of what was wrong with their bid etc. If they present a bid fixing those issues wouldn't that be a better bid them a Durban bid that isn't been scrutinized by the IOC?

For starters, a Cape Town bid from 20 years ago won't be an EXACT same bid a couple of decades later if/when they do bid again. Much like a future Paris bid cannot rely on it's previous failed blue-prints.

And Durban has at least had the hands-on experience of not only hosting a World Cup event, but also an IOC session, where the members were able to see first-hand what the city can really offer. Like a ready-built Olympic stadium & sports precinct.

Sure, they had some issues with their new airport when the WC semi-finals were there. But just like you say about Cape Town "fixing" their prior mistakes, don't you think Durban would do the same thing. Any city would, so I don't see Y Durban would be any different.

[Soaring]

I don't think I want a US city in the 2024 against a RSA bid. It is too risky IMO...

I say let Toronto go for it if they want to in 2024, but it is far from certain that 2024 will be a N. American showdown.