jawnbc Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Toronto needs to grab the puck and go for it. Everything is converging. There's a public bounce in support, all levels of government are sharing in the glow of Pan-Am success and another OG in Canada is politically the opposite of China, Kazakhstan, Turkey or Azerbaijan. No other country does multiculturalism as well as Canada, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger87 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Well, by that logic, if the US is not voting along with the region then there's no reason why Europe will vote along with their region either and they have far more sway in terms of votes than North America. Which means they'll probably vote for Toronto vs a European rival candidate, it's in their NOC's interests to do so. So basically, the Caribbean, Europe and most Muslim countries would probably vote for Toronto in a showdown with Paris. Australia, Latin America (leaning towards Canada) and Africa (50-50 split) will be a toss up, the Commonwealth and Muslim aspect vs the Francophonie aspect could sway votes there either way. Most of the Francophonie countries are Muslim so that could work against Paris as delegates there would likely be pretty furious about the burqa ban in Paris and the divisive debate associated with it. Meanwhile, Toronto is welcoming and comfortable to all religious views. I know you're a Toronto defender and I can understand that, but then this argument is too simplistic. Let's rewind some aspects. So basically, the Caribbean would probably vote for Toronto in a showdown with Paris. Not exactly true. If we go for the regional vote "splitting", USA is still the big obstacle for Toronto to getting Caribbean votes. The Caribbean countries are dependant of American dollars, many of these athletes are trained in American colleges and some of these countries have free-restrictions and big scolarships to USA. In any case, these countries will gain more voting for USA. Most of the Francophonie countries are Muslim so that could work against Paris as delegates there would likely be pretty furious about the burqa ban in Paris Also, not exactly true. Muslim Global Society is more complex (There aren't a monolitic culture with millions of people agreeding in many things) and the burqa, in opposition of the commonly used hijab (Which is the image you post btw), is only used by a small population in the Muslim World (Mostly in regions of Afghanistan and Pakistan). Even inside French muslims and some parts of the Muslim World (Especially related to ex french colonies like Maghreb for example) were in favor of the ban (I had the database because that was part of my resume work in college). That's material of another debate, but I would say putting the "burqa ban" (Which we had similar laws in many parts of Europe) is an overreaction. My second point is related to the "allegedly unity of the Muslim World". Beside key aspects like religion or Israel as an invasor, Muslim World is still fragmented. Not only from the classic dicotomy Sunni-Shia, but also among the different societies and countries around the Muslim World. The third counterpart is related especially to the Gulf countries like Qatar or UAE. They are very religious countries, but they are also very pragmatic. They have a objective point in money and influence. Considering these two countries are right now the biggest sponsors and inversors of many sport teams like football, rugby and others in Europe, they can forget their values and vote for pure pragmatism. Africa (50-50 split) will be a toss up Not exactly when they are a key economical, political and sporting interdependency among ex colonies and European powers. And finally checking this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_International_Olympic_Committee, it would be on the other way of analyse and strategy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave199 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) I was thinking about the main stadium plans. The city will not be able to sustain an 80,000 seat stadium unless it finally secures an NFL expansion franchise or relocating another team. Securing a team could be easier once a stadium is under construction. The only other option I can think of is down sizing the stadium to 40,000 and make it the permanent home of the Toronto Argonauts. Edited July 28, 2015 by dave199 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterSG1 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Toronto needs to grab the puck and go for it. Everything is converging. There's a public bounce in support, all levels of government are sharing in the glow of Pan-Am success and another OG in Canada is politically the opposite of China, Kazakhstan, Turkey or Azerbaijan. No other country does multiculturalism as well as Canada, period. Oh sure, the government will support it, as who cares what the people think. But those who call me a troll, I'm absolutely serious, go conduct an informal poll and ask random people (or people you work with, whatever) on how they feel about the Toronto 2024 Olympics. I'm fairly sure 65% or more, and that's being conservative, will be against it. Support for an Olympic Bid may have been there when we went for 2008, but among the public nowadays, I'm sure you will mostly find negativity. Those in Durham and Halton have had nasty commutes, (and don't assume that all these people work downtown) and this is something that people won't forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistercorporate Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Who cares what the people in Durham/Halton think, the IOC only cares what the people of Toronto think. Also, I categorically disagree with you about the extent of popular support for the games in TORONTO, it's very popular among the thinking non-mouth breathing crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterSG1 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 I was thinking about the main stadium plans. The city will not be able to sustain an 80,000 seat stadium unless it finally secures an NFL expansion franchise or relocating another team. Securing a team could be easier once a stadium is under construction. The only other option I can think of is down sizing the stadium to 40,000 and make it the permanent home of the Toronto Argonauts. The NFL team would have to be tied into the whole thing when the stadium is built, the question regarding the National Football League can survive in Toronto, which for sure it can, even with the depreciating dollar. The real issue is the political ramifications of playing American Football in Canada, and for those who want to laugh at me, this issue has went to parliament twice, just to show you how some will even define Canadian Football as being paramount to Canadian identity. In 1974, the now defunct World Football League was going to have a team in Toronto called the Toronto Northmen, politicians were afraid that this would kill the CFL, so they introduced the "Canadian Football Act" which would make it illegal to have any football teams in Canada that are part of foreign leagues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Football_Act Also, in 2008, a senator in the Canadian Senate introduced this bill, in plain black and white English that basically said that being caught playing pro American Football in Canada could land you in jail for two years. Again laugh at me all you want, but here it is, right from the Parliament website http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Bills/392/public/S-238/S-238_1/s-238_text-e.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterSG1 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Who cares what the people in Durham/Halton think, the IOC only cares what the people of Toronto think. Also, I categorically disagree with you about the extent of popular support for the games in TORONTO, it's very popular among the thinking non-mouth breathing crowd. Which is another thing I ask you when it comes to lane closures, would you dare try to defend the HOV/Pan Am lanes being in effect on the QEW in Mississauga still? Because the last time I checked, there are NO events that would require you to use the QEW to get to (you would be a fool to use the QEW to get to the Hershey Centre in Mississauga) and there are no events in Halton, Hamilton, and beyond. So what's with that lane closure still being effect? Perhaps more HOV social engineering at play? The IOC may only care about Toronto proper, but you know as well as me that not all of the events are going to happen within Toronto proper. What the residents of Halton, Peel, York, and Durham think are indeed very important, you honestly think that only Toronto taxpayers' money is going to pay for this? As we are most likely going to see Olympic Lanes in some fashion in these 4 regions outside of Toronto, and possibly Hamilton, (Copps could probably be used for an event) what the citizens think is indeed very important. Those 4 regions combined have a population larger than Toronto proper, and you say to hell with what the citizens in Durham and Halton have been going through these past 4 weeks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave199 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 The NFL team would have to be tied into the whole thing when the stadium is built, the question regarding the National Football League can survive in Toronto, which for sure it can, even with the depreciating dollar. The real issue is the political ramifications of playing American Football in Canada, and for those who want to laugh at me, this issue has went to parliament twice, just to show you how some will even define Canadian Football as being paramount to Canadian identity. In 1974, the now defunct World Football League was going to have a team in Toronto called the Toronto Northmen, politicians were afraid that this would kill the CFL, so they introduced the "Canadian Football Act" which would make it illegal to have any football teams in Canada that are part of foreign leagues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Football_Act Also, in 2008, a senator in the Canadian Senate introduced this bill, in plain black and white English that basically said that being caught playing pro American Football in Canada could land you in jail for two years. Again laugh at me all you want, but here it is, right from the Parliament website http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Bills/392/public/S-238/S-238_1/s-238_text-e.htm A Toronto team was actively pursuing the Buffalo Bills and lost out on that bid. I highly doubt they would be sent to jail for bringing an NFL team to Toronto especially when it was highly publicized Another idea that I'm going to throw out there. Let's revist Atlanta's post-Olympic stadium. They converted into a Baseball stadium for the Braves. The Blue Jays want to move into a Baseball specific park. The stadium could be renovated as a baseball specific stadium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave199 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Forum Research Poll was conducted. Majority of Torontonians support a 2024 Olympic bid. http://poll.forumresearch.com/data/TO_Olympic_Bid_News_Release_%282015_07_27%29%20Forum_Research_%204928.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterSG1 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 A Toronto team was actively pursuing the Buffalo Bills and lost out on that bid. I highly doubt they would be sent to jail for bringing an NFL team to Toronto especially when it was highly publicized Another idea that I'm going to throw out there. Let's revist Atlanta's post-Olympic stadium. They converted into a Baseball stadium for the Braves. The Blue Jays want to move into a Baseball specific park. The stadium could be renovated as a baseball specific stadium. The idea of a Blue Jays stadium does sound intriguing however. The issues regarding Toronto and the CFL are complex, despite TV ratings, and I don't know where they come from, I honestly don't know anyone who supports the Argonauts or watches the CFL around here. I'm not going to deny that the CFL is popular in Western Canada, but that's not the issue. When it comes to the Argonauts, I've read somewhere that the CFL needs a team in Toronto for TSN to have total broadcast rights, or something along those lines. And that if there was no Toronto team than you can kiss the CFL contract goodbye. So for the purpose of a team that's seen by most people in the region as being on par with the Toronto Marlies, the legacy of Toronto's professional soccer team, as well as the Canadian National Men's soccer team, is being destroyed by having gridiron lines and rough gridiron play at the great intimate setting of BMO Field. The North and South ends of the stadium will have to be massively reconfigured for that mile deep end zone they use in the CFL. But to hell with Toronto FC fans, we can't let the oldest pro sports team in North America die, even if that team is highly irrelevant today. When it comes to the CFL, generally, a fan of the Toronto Argonauts and an NFL fan in Toronto are mutually exclusive, usually it's unheard of to be a fan of the Argonauts and dream of having an NFL team play in Toronto. They are two seperate types of gridiron fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistercorporate Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Honestly Mr.SG1 Iddon't know what you're talking about as most people Iknew travelling from as far away as Hamilton were talking about there being less vehicles on the road leading up to the city due to government announcements to stay off the roads and take transit. The HOV lanes have been such a success they're thinking about making them permanent regardless of the games. I used transit during the games and it was punctual and efficient as usual. This whole event was textbook and we'll managed and well under budget. This is why people keep accusing you of being a troll since your claims are not only constantly negative but your statements are so far disconnected from reality. Please stop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterSG1 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Honestly Mr.SG1 Iddon't know what you're talking about as most people Iknew travelling from as far away as Hamilton were talking about there being less vehicles on the road leading up to the city due to government announcements to stay off the roads and take transit. The HOV lanes have been such a success they're thinking about making them permanent regardless of the games. I used transit during the games and it was punctual and efficient as usual. This whole event was textbook and we'll managed and well under budget. This is why people keep accusing you of being a troll since your claims are not only constantly negative but your statements are so far disconnected from reality. Please stop it. Tell me how they are a success when we can obviously see the increase in accidents that have occurred. What's happened with this case of temporary HOV lanes is different for the effects on how people generally see how a freeway operates. Unlike the permanent HOV lanes on the QEW, 403, and 404, the temporary ones use the left most lane, the lane that is right next to the left most lane did not become the new left most lane. As we know the left most lane is for passing, but people in the next lane over are not driving to the demands of the left lane, so what happens, people attempt to sneak into the HOV lane to pass a driver who is going 90km/h, what happens, sometimes they get stuck out there trying to make a quick pass and worrying about a large fine, they do anything to get back over. If you think these HOV lanes are so great, and want HOT lanes, way to go, you have just created a system of have and have nots, something we should be against in this country. Tell me one thing, how do HOV lanes handle commercial traffic? Highway 401 is generally considered to be the busiest commercial route in the world. Unfortunately with speed limiters on trucks being law in Ontario, this allows for elephant races to happen on stretches of the 401 within the GTA where the HOV lane is in effect, (the 401 east of Salem Road rings a bell) you know, where Truck A due to company restrictions is in the right lane at a speed of 90km/h, while Truck B is in the next lane attempting to pass Truck B at a speed of 100km/h. This situation once again causes motorists to want to cheat and try to pass on the HOV lane, with the focus on trying to spot police cruisiers, drivers lose focus and accidentally end up in crashes as well. So if you like the HOT system, ask our colleagues from Sao Paulo on this board about the wonderful plate restriction system they have in their city and what little it's done to help traffic there, where on certain days of the week, people with certain plate numbers get to drive, while on other days people with certain plate numbers get to drive. Excuse me, but this is a free country, something my grandparents supposedly went overseas and died for. If Toronto and the GTA don't develop a serious transportation plan now, and something that's a LOT BETTER than MoveOntario 2020 or Transit City, then by god, we are only destined to become Sao Paulo North when it comes to traffic. As for taking transit, it sounds wonderful, if you lived in Durham Region and worked in the financial district, you'd be foolish not to use the GO Train, but what about those who live in Durham Region and work at say Bayview/Sheppard, you want to know how time consuming it would be to take transit between those two points? The 401 is not a downtown freeway, yet it is the busiest freeway in North America if not the world, people have work all over the place and transit cannot serve all those needs realistically. So if they always say that we can't realistically build true rapid transit, (the supposed 500 per km cost for subway comes to mind) then why can we otherwise host a five ring circus? Ontario is approaching 300 billion in the hole, and the last summer olympics in this country doesn't exactly have a positive outlook for most people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan in Montréal Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) Support for Toronto 2024 bid just over 60 percent as the PanAms close: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/panamgames/2015/07/28/majority-of-torontonians-support-olympic-bid-poll.html Edited July 28, 2015 by Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchy Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Well, by that logic, if the US is not voting along with the region then there's no reason why Europe will vote along with their region either and they have far more sway in terms of votes than North America. Which means they'll probably vote for Toronto vs a European rival candidate, it's in their NOC's interests to do so. So basically, the Caribbean, Europe and most Muslim countries would probably vote for Toronto in a showdown with Paris. Australia, Latin America (leaning towards Canada) and Africa (50-50 split) will be a toss up, the Commonwealth and Muslim aspect vs the Francophonie aspect could sway votes there either way. Most of the Francophonie countries are Muslim so that could work against Paris as delegates there would likely be pretty furious about the burqa ban in Paris and the divisive debate associated with it. Meanwhile, Toronto is welcoming and comfortable to all religious views. Exactly, Paris will just win this anyway, it's in the bag, are you listening Hamburg? Istanbul? London? Budapest? Rome? You know who to campaign against during the bid process... P.S. Muslim, Jewish, Indian delegates, your partner has a headscarf? You want them to be able to attend an olympic city without being discriminated against? You know who to campaign against during the bid process... Very interesting. That poster + the message you posted on another thread gives us a unique insight into what a potential Toronto 2024 strategy will be to counter the Paris bid. Thanks for that. Just hope it doesn't come back to bite you in the a*** in a future Toronto bid...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) LOLI don't like the burqa ban either mistercorporate, but if that's your first line of attack against Paris 2024 then the implication is you think Toronto's bid really has no chance! :lol: Edited July 28, 2015 by Rob. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistercorporate Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 That's what I've been saying, Toronto is a clear underdog, how can we compete with Rome and Paris??? No idea what bid committees will use as their strategy, just using my own style you're quite welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave199 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) http://globalnews.ca/video/2134434/toronto-mulls-olympic-bid-after-successful-pan-am-games http://globalnews.ca/video/2134296/toronto-olympic-bid-being-considered-but-john-tory-says-let-the-dust-settle-first/ Edited July 28, 2015 by dave199 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave199 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) That's what I've been saying, Toronto is a clear underdog, how can we compete with Rome and Paris??? No idea what bid committees will use as their strategy, just using my own style you're quite welcome! I honestly think a Toronto bid can hold itself and make its way to a final ballot vote against any of the Euro cities vying for the prize. This isn't going to be a early exit like some are saying and comparing to the US bids from the 2012 and 2016 race. Toronto's bid will be solid, the experience from hosting the Pan Am's puts it in a better position then any of those American cities, plus, not being an American city and lying in the lucrative viewership timezone will work in its favour. The $$$ bounce backs will be quite generous. The games haven't been in North America since 1996, it's time to return back to this region. Edited July 28, 2015 by dave199 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave199 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) On CP24 last night, John Tory said $150,000 deposit for sending the letter of intent will be paid by the Canadian Olympic Committee. The cost of a Toronto bid will be around $50-$60 million and he gave the impression it would be paid for by Corporate sponsors. Maybe Rogers? They would have a vested interest in making sure the city secures that stadium since they've been running after a NFL franchise. Edited July 28, 2015 by dave199 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Heard all this type of Canadian pep talk back in 2001 too. Toronto would not only have to beat Paris, but they'll also have to beat out Hamburg & Rome, which don't really see happening. It's not gonna be as close as you guys are thinking. And then throw in possibly Los Angeles, after the USOC has been painstakingly giving in to what the IOC wants over the past six years (not to mention the NBC mega deal), & just forget about it. This is Europe's time. Again, many of the Europeans already see Rio 2016 as "returning to this region", no matter what we think here on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave199 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Heard all this type of Canadian pep talk back in 2001 too. Toronto would not only have to beat Paris, but they'll also have to beat out Hamburg & Rome, which don't really see happening. It's not gonna be as close as you guys are thinking. And then throw in possibly Los Angeles, after the USOC has been painstakingly giving in to what the IOC wants over the past six years (not to mention the NBC mega deal), & just forget about it. This is Europe's time. Again, many of the Europeans already see Rio 2016 as "returning to this region", no matter what we think here on that. Hamburg is the 3rd choice out of the 3 European candidates. Do you honestly see it getting past the 2nd round? And another Olympics in Los Angeles, last one being in 1984, yeah ok! LA will be the first to be dropped especially after this fiasco with the USOC and their selection of Boston. If the IOC is set on going back to a previous host city then it will be Paris or Rome, definitely not Los Angeles. Do they plan on just going back to repeat host cities from now on? Or they could opt out of this trend and go to a brand new host city in the developed world that is more than capable of hosting. Toronto has the most recent experience out of all the candidates hosting a large scale multi-sport event. They will say, "Listen, we just pulled off the most successful Pan Am's in its history, these games ran very smoothly, no major problems. We dealt and overcame any traffic issues, we know what to do logistical wise. It's all in the city's planning books going forward now. The city also has never hosted the games. Support is here. Edited July 28, 2015 by dave199 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 If LA is problematic as a repeat host for the USA (which may be why USOC passed them over first time in this process), then Vancouver and Calgary (both more recent) are certainly problematic for Toronto which is in a nation of much smaller population. Both the US and Canada have enough hosting experience and know-how - that shouldn't be a factor which favours or disadvantages either. The PanAms confirmed that in Canada's case and provided a timely launching pad for their bid with public support buoyant. Beyond that, did it really fire it ahead of the pack for 2024? I doubt it. I think Paris will ultimately have the beating of both N American bids. I think Paris will be hard to resist, and the 2022 European exodus only compounds my belief that the IOC will see it as an opportunity too good to miss. Everything for me points to Paris and I don't see there being an equivilient of London in this race to undermine that. Will enjoy following Toronto's progress though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan in Montréal Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) Hard to make a case to return to Europe after London 2012 - that will put the Games back there just 2 Games after London. I think the IOC may have issues with the USOC's handling of the 2024 bids. Having said this, I'm 95% convinced that once the "glow" from the PanAms has disappeared in a few weeks, the reality of governments spending at least $4billion -- minimum -- for a 2024 Games may kill the bid. Today's poll in the Toronto Star shows support at about 61% -- and that poll was taken 48 hours after the PanAms closed. Give it a few weeks and see if the support is still there. I don't think it is. Edited July 28, 2015 by Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob2012 Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Hard to make a case to return to Europe after London 2012 - that will put the Games back there just 2 Games after London. Three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted July 28, 2015 Report Share Posted July 28, 2015 Hard to make a case to return to Europe after London 2012 - that will put the Games back there just 2 Games after London. Uh London 2012 happensd only one Games after Athens 2004. So how could an extra four years out this time not qualify Europe?! More roads point to Europe this time for 2024 than they did for 2012. Not to mention, the IOC has never gone more than two Summer Games without returning to Europe. And clearly, the IOC has the options to pick from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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