monorail Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 By 2020 that should not be a problem. Why build a veldrome when one is literally less then an hour away? Which is half the distance between Whistler and Vancouver. Well the reason why Hamilton got a Veledrome for the Pan Ams was because the Province would only support that bid if the venues were spread out to benefit a whole bunch of cities in the GTA. A Toronto Olympics will not be that spread out. The bid will have a more localized venue plan based on the Toronto waterfront with the 3 zones. I highly doubt the bid team will full deviate away from their 2008 bid plan, besides a few little adjustments and additions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoronto Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Well the reason why Hamilton got a Veledrome for the Pan Ams was because the Province would only support that bid if the venues were spread out to benefit a whole bunch of cities in the GTA. A Toronto Olympics will not be that spread out. The bid will have a more localized venue plan based on the Toronto waterfront with the 3 zones. I highly doubt the bid team will full deviate away from their 2008 bid plan, besides a few little adjustments and additions. True, I guess the veldrome will be temporary or used as another venue after the games. If I remember correctly wrestling was proposed to also be staged at the velodrome. Do you think the rumors flying around are true?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Your adding other factors into it though. Well, those other factors are what make or break the bids, aren't they. You may have just stated the math, but you also were refuting that Vancouver shouldn't be an issue like some make it out to be, but if so, then Turin would be an issue for Rome. That sounds like a declaration, not just 'simply stating'. And yes, Italy's economy is teetering, but so is every other nations out there. The Olympics have been staged through tough economic times before, so that's not something that would be unique to the IOC. And if they're so concerned about it, then they should drastically scale down their 3-week extravaganza. But it appears that as long as the show goes on, they don't care who's piggy bank they break. And Athens 2004 is a great example of such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave199 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 I had the feeling there would be discussions about this here. After I heard about SA's withdrawal from the bid I figured Toronto would seek this opportunity. I'm not gonna lie, I would love to watch the bidding race; win or lose. Mayor Rob Ford seems open and supportive as he is one of the biggest sporting fans of any of Toronto's past mayors. Like c'mon, the man and his brother are determined to get the NFL to move to Toronto. Securing a stadium deal would make his quest much easier. It's like killing two birds with one stone. Toronto NFL Team & Toronto Olympics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoronto Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Well, those other factors are what make or break the bids, aren't they. You may have just stated the math, but you also were refuting that Vancouver shouldn't be an issue like some make it out to be, but if so, then Turin would be an issue for Rome. That sounds like a declaration, not just 'simply stating'. And yes, Italy's economy is teetering, but so is every other nations out there. The Olympics have been staged through tough economic times before, so that's not something that would be unique to the IOC. And if they're so concerned about it, then they should drastically scale down their 3-week extravaganza. But it appears that as long as the show goes on, they don't care who's piggy bank they break. And Athens 2004 is a great example of such. Fair criticism, but here are my counter points: Basketball/Volleyball share venues because the volleyball one is smaller, but that will not be an issue if volleyball is held at Copps Colliseum. Canoeing/Rowing were scheduled for 2008 at the Olympic Park but IOC raised security issues, so most likely away from the village. Track Cycling which is a discipline of cycling is not a major event it lasts about 4 days. Track cycling's requirement is 5,000 seats and this is the rendering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdxVCDpkVdQ and source for the requirement: http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/dflpdf/Venues11-8-05.pdf Aquatics: 12,000 is minimum but 15,000 likely in Toronto so not a problem. Gymnastics is the issue here. Fencing- Field house is 3,000 an expansion is possible to 6,000 (according to Troop on a conference call) MTCC is the media broadcast center so I intentionally left it blank. Handball is another issue- 5,000 is the minimum, but I was taking a guess with the 4,000. BMO Field can be expanded to 28,000 seats http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/603933 + BMO cannot fit Rugby. Water Polo/Table tennis need bigger venues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Italy is hardly a power since 1996 their medal tally has been declining. IOC members, Italy has 4 strong members, Canada has Richard Pound who was runner up to Rogge in elections for presidency and is really influential. Also add in the fact Vazquez Rana will probably support Toronto as well (as he did with the PAG). Not really Apples and Oranges. Italy is still in the top 10, whereas Canada is what, like 20. And Richard Pound's influence has been declining over the years. And even when he did have some, it still wasn't enough to get him either the presidency nor Toronto the 2008 Games. So actually, yes, apples & oranges. Only a completely bias supporter would say that it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoronto Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Italy is still in the top 10, whereas Canada is what, like 20. And Richard Pound's influence has been declining over the years. And even when he did have some, it still wasn't enough to get him either the presidency nor Toronto the 2008 Games. So actually, yes, apples & oranges. Only a completely bias supporter would say that it's not. Not apples and oranges (thats like saying 100% opposite) they are closer then that. Canada was 12th in total medals and 18th in gold medals. Don't forget Vazquez Rana who will be retiring in 2013! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave199 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Italy is still in the top 10, whereas Canada is what, like 20. And Richard Pound's influence has been declining over the years. And even when he did have some, it still wasn't enough to get him either the presidency nor Toronto the 2008 Games. So actually, yes, apples & oranges. Only a completely bias supporter would say that it's not. I always got the impression that Richard Pound wasn't a full supporter of Toronto 2008 as he favoured a Vancouver 2010 bid instead which eventually won. Italy won 9 more medals than Canada in Beijing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoronto Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 I always got the impression that Richard Pound wasn't a full supporter of Toronto 2008 as he favoured a Vancouver 2010 bid instead which eventually won. Italy won 9 more medals than Canada in Beijing Think about in Vancouver Italy won 5 medals just one gold, it looks like the sporting funding in Italy is drying up. He did support Vancouver but now its just one bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 I always got the impression that Richard Pound wasn't a full supporter of Toronto 2008 as he favoured a Vancouver 2010 bid instead which eventually won. Perhaps. But Vancouver also got those supposed Toronto 2008 sympathy votes. Plus, Vancouver had rotation on it's side, since Salzburg wasn't getting it right after Turin. Not to mention PyeongChang 2010 was more or less handicapped with Beijing 2008. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Rols Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 I always got the impression that Richard Pound wasn't a full supporter of Toronto 2008 as he favoured a Vancouver 2010 bid instead which eventually won. Well, he was openly a Beijing booster for 2000 (so much for the theory that Commonwealth members will always vote for Commonwealth bids), and tried to discourage the COC from their Quebec City 2002 bid. He probably did lip service for Toronto 2008, but I expect he wasn't too disappointed with the eventual choice. I actually think he is one member who looks at the bigger picture in bidding rather than just Canadian interests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walei Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 I always got the impression that Richard Pound wasn't a full supporter of Toronto 2008 as he favoured a Vancouver 2010 bid instead which eventually won. Italy won 9 more medals than Canada in Beijing I recall reading articles at the time that Pound wasn't fully supporting Toronto 2008 because he wanted the presidency and no way the IOC would give Canada both the Games and the top job in the same year. Love reading all the discussion on Toronto 2020! Although I am still reserved with my feelings on the chances of Toronto bidding and actually winning, it would be one of my life's biggest dream to see Toronto host a Summer Games before I am 40. Toronto 2008 had one of the best bid logo IMO, Toronto 1996...not so much and Toronto 2015 PanAm has one of the worst logo ever. Wonder what the next iteration would look like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoronto Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 I recall reading articles at the time that Pound wasn't fully supporting Toronto 2008 because he wanted the presidency and no way the IOC would give Canada both the Games and the top job in the same year. Love reading all the discussion on Toronto 2020! Although I am still reserved with my feelings on the chances of Toronto bidding and actually winning, it would be one of my life's biggest dream to see Toronto host a Summer Games before I am 40. Toronto 2008 had one of the best bid logo IMO, Toronto 1996...not so much and Toronto 2015 PanAm has one of the worst logo ever. Wonder what the next iteration would look like? Its a dream an its nice to discuss it with people that like talking about this kind of stuFF!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave199 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Perhaps. But Vancouver also got those supposed Toronto 2008 sympathy votes. Plus, Vancouver had rotation on it's side, since Salzburg wasn't getting it right after Turin. Not to mention PyeongChang 2010 was more or less handicapped with Beijing 2008. Yeah it was an easy race for them even though Pyeongchang was right at their heels.\ Toronto is a contender for 2020. I wouldn't discredit the bid as I wouldn't discredit Rome just because of a recent Winter Olympics. FYI brought up some very good valid points in Rome's favour but we can easily say Canada has the better most stable economy out of the bunch, the available land for a waterfront Olympics centralized infront of downtown Toronto's skyline, plus the lucrative Eastern Standard Timezone as bidding rights for TV contracts are coming up. As with every city, there will be the PROs and CONs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Not apples and oranges (thats like saying 100% opposite) they are closer then that. Maybe closer, but not towards the same side of the spectrum like you're trying to portray it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faster Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) Fair criticism, but here are my counter points: Basketball/Volleyball share venues because the volleyball one is smaller, but that will not be an issue if volleyball is held at Copps Colliseum. Canoeing/Rowing were scheduled for 2008 at the Olympic Park but IOC raised security issues, so most likely away from the village. Track Cycling which is a discipline of cycling is not a major event it lasts about 4 days. Track cycling's requirement is 5,000 seats and this is the rendering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdxVCDpkVdQ and source for the requirement: http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/dflpdf/Venues11-8-05.pdf Aquatics: 12,000 is minimum but 15,000 likely in Toronto so not a problem. Gymnastics is the issue here. Fencing- Field house is 3,000 an expansion is possible to 6,000 (according to Troop on a conference call) MTCC is the media broadcast center so I intentionally left it blank. Handball is another issue- 5,000 is the minimum, but I was taking a guess with the 4,000. BMO Field can be expanded to 28,000 seats http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/603933 + BMO cannot fit Rugby. Water Polo/Table tennis need bigger venues. If you think that track cycling is not one of the most important sports you are sadly mistaken. Track cycling, swimming, artistic gymnastics and the men's 100m final are the premium events. Less then 0.50% of ticket applications are filled for track cycling. And again volleyball is too important to ship off to Hamitlon. It is also part of the more accessible sports for fans (basketball, handball, field hockey, water polo are the others). And again, maximizing capacity is important, it would be stupid to have the aquatics arena being less then 17000. Category D tickets for swimming are about as expensive as category A tickets for minor sports. Edited June 2, 2011 by Faster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoronto Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Maybe closer, but not towards the same side of the spectrum like you're trying to portray it. Lets say on a number char between 1 and 100 Toronto is like 25 and Rome is 75. Any chance Toronto can beat Rome? Its killing me to know about these rumors that Ford (mayor of Toronto who I met in 2003 and talked about an Olympic bid and he said he was in favour- not straight like that but thats the idea I got.) and Dalton (premier of Ontario) are planing a bid. I wonder if these rumors are true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monorail Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Its a dream an its nice to discuss it with people that like talking about this kind of stuFF!!! It's not like it's impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave199 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Its killing me to know about these rumors that Ford (mayor of Toronto who I met in 2003 and talked about an Olympic bid and he said he was in favour- not straight like that but thats the idea I got.) and Dalton (premier of Ontario) are planing a bid. I wonder if these rumors are true? Rob Ford was a big supporter of Toronto's 2008 bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoronto Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Rob Ford was a big supporter of Toronto's 2008 bid. Then again the man is trying to save $800 million dollars in the next fiscal budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FYI Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Lets say on a number char between 1 and 100 Toronto is like 25 and Rome is 75. Any chance Toronto can beat Rome? It's like a lot of us here have said before; ANY bid has "a chance". To what degree though, is the real question. That's when many of us here start to analize, ponder, disect the numbers, factor in the geopolitics, etc, etc, etc. Just like a lot of us now are doing with the 2018 race. Most of us here (other than the 2 Annecy loony tunes) are most certain that Annecy ain't fricken getting 2018. But do they have a "chance"? Yes, they absolutely do. But is it a "great chance"? Not unless PyeongChang & Munich fall off the face of the Earth the night before the vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monorail Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Annecy's bid is crap compared to Munich and Pyeongchang. It's obvious they aren't going to win just based on that alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faster Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 To illustrate: Aquatics Centre 18,000 compared to 15,000. At 2 sessions a day over 8 days you have a difference of 48,000 tickets. At an average ticket price of 300 dollars, you are looking at additional revenue of 15 million dollars Velodrome: 7,000 compared to 5,000. At 9 total sessions there is a difference of 18,000 and with an average ticket price of 175 dollars that is an additional 3.2 million dollars in revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intoronto Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Annecy's bid is crap compared to Munich and Pyeongchang. It's obvious they aren't going to win just based on that alone. I love their "Olympic Stadium" but thats it. To illustrate: Aquatics Centre 18,000 compared to 15,000. At 2 sessions a day over 8 days you have a difference of 48,000 tickets. At an average ticket price of 300 dollars, you are looking at additional revenue of 15 million dollars Velodrome: 7,000 compared to 5,000. At 9 total sessions there is a difference of 18,000 and with an average ticket price of 175 dollars that is an additional 3.2 million dollars in revenue. I am not aware of the expansion abilities I am just taking a guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Rols Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Annecy's bid is crap compared to Munich and Pyeongchang. It's obvious they aren't going to win just based on that alone. I wouldn't say it's a crap bid - it's got a lot going for it. But timing, France's previous winter games and the advantages of PC and Munich far, far outweight its positives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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