Men's Figure Skating Gold

[Faster]

I'm guessing you've never seen Kim skate live. I have; she's electric. Magic. 3 years ago she was robo-jump; no more.

And piss off with the homophobic language. Some of us are obvious queers--rather than <b>obvious a$$hats</b>. Or go somewhere else with your crap.

Spins are not about contortions ... they are graded on speed, centering, changes of position and changes of direction. The new scoring system has thankfully put more emphasis on spins ... it is no longer all about jumps, jumps, jumps!

The points system only gives credit to jumps that are fully rotated whether landed or not. And a fall is an automatic 1 point deduction. However, the system does encourage skaters to attempt more triple jumps and combinations.

As for Faster's remarks, while I am heterosexual I was also offended by his remarks. Whatever your feelings about a person's sexual orienation you should keep them to yourself. You just show your ignorance. I suggest the moderater prohibit these type of remarks from seeing the light of day and remove them.

The comment was not homophobic: it was referring to homophobia in media and advertisements. The primary audience of figure skating is female, they are not interested in gay men skating, they are interested in emotional, artistic, straight men expressing themselves in ways men do not normally do. The same holds true for gymnastics. Through the 80's and 90's there was a lot of his he/isn't he innuendo in the media that kept them interested in it and the skaters like Stojko, but you also had someone like Eldredge that was American and straight for the US media to pin up. And in the 2000's you had the dominance by the two Russians, Yagudin and Plashanko competing against each other, both masculine, heterosexual men. It is a sad state of affairs but it is completely true. Lysacek, Chan, Joubert, Weir, Kim, Asada and Ando are not engaging enough for a general audience. They aren't Yagudin, or Sale and Pelletier or Kwan. Kim is probably one of the best skaters of all time, but she just doesn't come across well to a general audience. Kwan was technically inferior to many of her contemporaries but she was engaging and media friendly. Race unfortunately places a role in Kim, Asada and Ando as well, since they don't have the USA/Canada immigrant story to go along with it. Again it is a sad state that the media and providers of this coverage cater to a more narrow-minded, NAian white focus.

And if Kim wins, she is not going to become this international media darling, she is going to be a Korean media darling, which she already is.

[olympian]

The comment was not homophobic: it was referring to homophobia in media and advertisements. The primary audience of figure skating is female, they are not interested in gay men skating, they are interested in emotional, artistic, straight men expressing themselves in ways men do not normally do. The same holds true for gymnastics. Through the 80's and 90's there was a lot of his he/isn't he innuendo in the media that kept them interested in it and the skaters like Stojko, but you also had someone like Eldredge that was American and straight for the US media to pin up. And in the 2000's you had the dominance by the two Russians, Yagudin and Plashanko competing against each other, both masculine, heterosexual men. It is a sad state of affairs but it is completely true. Lysacek, Chan, Joubert, Weir, Kim, Asada and Ando are not engaging enough for a general audience. They aren't Yagudin, or Sale and Pelletier or Kwan. Kim is probably one of the best skaters of all time, but she just doesn't come across well to a general audience. Kwan was technically inferior to many of her contemporaries but she was engaging and media friendly. Race unfortunately places a role in Kim, Asada and Ando as well, since they don't have the USA/Canada immigrant story to go along with it. Again it is a sad state that the media and providers of this coverage cater to a more narrow-minded, NAian white focus.

And if Kim wins, she is not going to become this international media darling, she is going to be a Korean media darling, which she already is.

winning 5 world championships and medalling at 9 straight world championships and 9 national titles doesn't make kwan inferior to her contemporaries. they just outskated her in the olympics but dropped like flies after the games. kwan has staying power while lipinski and hughes doesn't.

[Faster]

winning 5 world championships and medalling at 9 straight world championships and 9 national titles doesn't make kwan inferior to her contemporaries. they just outskated her in the olympics but dropped like flies after the games. kwan has staying power while lipinski and hughes doesn't.

I agree she was consistent and was very good, but her rivals were technically superior in their skill. Kwan was known for skating clean, artistic, enjoyable to watch programs every time out but the difference between Kwan and the person that beat her was their programs were usually technically more difficult.

[olympian]

I agree she was consistent and was very good, but her rivals were technically superior in their skill. Kwan was known for skating clean, artistic, enjoyable to watch programs every time out but the difference between Kwan and the person that beat her was their programs were usually technically more difficult.

then you should've been more careful when constructing your statement because when you said inferior earlier you made it sound as if its her body of work that is inferior when she is the skater who has had more 7 triple jump program in history than any skater. her technical contents may not be as difficult as slutskaya but she blows them away from an artistic perspective which is already missing from the sport today.

[jawnbc]

Um, OK...then don't be so stoopid about your word choice. Think before you click. And type.

The comment was not homophobic: it was referring to homophobia in media and advertisements. The primary audience of figure skating is female, they are not interested in gay men skating, they are interested in emotional, artistic, straight men expressing themselves in ways men do not normally do. The same holds true for gymnastics. Through the 80's and 90's there was a lot of his he/isn't he innuendo in the media that kept them interested in it and the skaters like Stojko, but you also had someone like Eldredge that was American and straight for the US media to pin up. And in the 2000's you had the dominance by the two Russians, Yagudin and Plashanko competing against each other, both masculine, heterosexual men. It is a sad state of affairs but it is completely true. Lysacek, Chan, Joubert, Weir, Kim, Asada and Ando are not engaging enough for a general audience. They aren't Yagudin, or Sale and Pelletier or Kwan. Kim is probably one of the best skaters of all time, but she just doesn't come across well to a general audience. Kwan was technically inferior to many of her contemporaries but she was engaging and media friendly. Race unfortunately places a role in Kim, Asada and Ando as well, since they don't have the USA/Canada immigrant story to go along with it. Again it is a sad state that the media and providers of this coverage cater to a more narrow-minded, NAian white focus.

And if Kim wins, she is not going to become this international media darling, she is going to be a Korean media darling, which she already is.

[jawnbc]

Hmmm.....I wonder, do you think he's trying to nail down his quad? Apparently he's got one now, just not as confident as his other jumps.

If he lands a quad in the free, he could win.

Patrick Chan and his coach have parted ways due to the fact that his coach is taking a full-time job in Florida. Lori Nichol, who is his choreographer, has taken over coaching duties with Christy Krall as technical assistant. They say the transition has been smooth, but you have to wonder with a month to go how this might effect his performances. We will soon see with the Canadian Championships starting next week.

Yu-Na Kim is a superstar in Korea, getting mobbed every time she is out in public. There are a lot of Koreans in Vancouver. If a number of them got tickets they will certain liven up the audience. Joannie will naturally get great support. I would definitely disagree with any negativity in regards to the men's program. Many are anticipating on of the best competitions ever. The only thing hurting figure skating over the last few years and continues to dog the sport are rumours of judging scandals.

[jiejie]

The comment was not homophobic: it was referring to homophobia in media and advertisements. The primary audience of figure skating is female, they are not interested in gay men skating, they are interested in emotional, artistic, straight men expressing themselves in ways men do not normally do. The same holds true for gymnastics. Through the 80's and 90's there was a lot of his he/isn't he innuendo in the media that kept them interested in it and the skaters like Stojko, but you also had someone like Eldredge that was American and straight for the US media to pin up. And in the 2000's you had the dominance by the two Russians, Yagudin and Plashanko competing against each other, both masculine, heterosexual men. It is a sad state of affairs but it is completely true. Lysacek, Chan, Joubert, Weir, Kim, Asada and Ando are not engaging enough for a general audience. They aren't Yagudin, or Sale and Pelletier or Kwan. Kim is probably one of the best skaters of all time, but she just doesn't come across well to a general audience. Kwan was technically inferior to many of her contemporaries but she was engaging and media friendly. Race unfortunately places a role in Kim, Asada and Ando as well, since they don't have the USA/Canada immigrant story to go along with it. Again it is a sad state that the media and providers of this coverage cater to a more narrow-minded, NAian white focus.

And if Kim wins, she is not going to become this international media darling, she is going to be a Korean media darling, which she already is.

I return to this thread after a few days' absence and see that it has taken some interesting turns....let's begin with Faster.

Faster: I usually like your comments on most GB threads, and agree with many of them, but not this time.

1) Your original comment (which I will not requote or repeat here) definitely came off as a homophobic slur. I am neither male nor gay, and yet I winced at that one. The above subsequent explanation doesn't really make it any better.

2) As part of this "primary audience" you refer to--which yes, does tend to be female--I can unequivocably state that with respect to the above bolded (by me) comment, you are dead wrong. Deader than dead wrong. Gay men have been a part of elite skating for as long as I've been watching (that would be decades), and women of all ages, throughout the ages, are as completely enthralled by a great program put out by a gay skater as a straight one. As female skating fans, we are looking for competence and excellence in skating; we're not looking for dates or marriage partners. The ability to put out a skating program that the audience can get emotionally invested in, is not correlated to gayness or straightness. I actually know a number of (straight) men who don't mind watching figure skating and they don't seem to have a problem with watching a great gay skater either.

3) Your listing of some skaters above and allegations that they are not "engaging enough for a general audience" is off-base. Unless you are limiting your definition of "general audience" to North America. Most of those skaters above have plenty of general audience fans in at least some part of the world--fans that go specifically to see them or watch them on electronic media. Within North America, the problem isn't the audience not wanting to see certain skaters, it's that the options for seeing them--or for that matter seeing ANY skaters--has markedly decreased. More about this below. As for current highly regarded lady Kim, I've seen her on broadcast and live (more than once) and she is absolutely capable of putting out performances that fire up an audience--and I don't mean just the Koreans.

4) Kwan was not technically inferior to her competitors, on an overall basis--in fact, she was remarkable for the fact that she had no major glaring weaknesses, whereas most of the other women that could beat her on highest jumps, or fastest spins, or more contortionist positions--also had one or more other weaknesses. And of course, she could pretty consistently be better than anyone else at channelling her nerves and summon the goods at the critical moment. The last is not a skill that we're seeing much evidence of lately, at least with the ladies' discipline. Kwan was reasonably engaging and media-friendly, but she was also a fierce competitor, even on the occasions where she didn't win. Audiences everywhere appreciate skaters who can put up a good fight. They do that for any sport. One of the issues I think skating has--and IMHO, is a negative unintended consequence of the COP system--is lack of fighters and this affects ladies more than anything. Under the new system, you have to plan and then execute a skate in the manner of a bean-counting accounting, focusing on yourself and that COP. Whereas under the new system, all you had to do was skate your utmost and beat the snot out of your competitors--much more "me vs. him/her". The de-personalization of the competition due to COP is no blessing to the sport.

5) One thing that I think Faster is pointing out correctly is the pernicious role of the media. Figure skating has been falling off the map for some years, and I don't think the problem is that of the skaters currently in the sport--whether race, nationality, orientation, etc. Lots of people seem to blame the decline on lack of a universally appealing "star" or stars, but the fact is that the increasing segmentation of the entire mass media/entertainment--including sports--audience has completely turned the traditional broadcast vehicle on its head. If Michelle Kwan herself was making her breakthrough in the sport now instead of 1995, I'm not sure there would be enough media coverage for anybody to know a buzz was going on. There's just more money for the broadcasters in football, or hockey, or World Series of Poker tournaments! The fact is, the major media are largely under the control of male (straight most likely) executives who in times of limited resources, are going to go with what they and their peers prefer, and that would not be figure skating--or any sport that has less than "manly men". Put me and 10 women in charge of the major broadcast media, and we'd get some balance back into things. Seriously, I put far more blame on any homophobia or lack of wanting to push interest in top non-North American skaters squarely on the shoulders of media executives, NOT the general skating audience/public. And for the USA, I also put a lot of blame on the USFS (US Figure Skating)--Federation. There is definitely a homophobic streak in parts of that organization, and they are too busy scrapping over small battles while losing the Big Picture of the sport's decline. Not a lot of great strategic business thinking coming out of that organization in the last 15 years or so. I don't know about the Canadians or other Federations.

Unfortunately, huge swaths of the figure skating audience currently don't have easy or inexpensive access to the alternative-to-broadcast-TV means of watching competitions. If you make it hard for an audience to find it's sport, of course you will get a self fulfilling prophecy of "well, nobody watches figure skating" or "only a bunch of dumb women watch figure skating" and so you then get even less skating, and it spirals downward. With the demise of sponsorship and therefore opportunities for professional skaters, it adds to figure skating's ongoing demise. And it won't get better soon with the current general economic climate.

There, I feel better now. Sorry this is so long.

[jiejie]

Ugh..wish I could edit:

make that sentence: "...manner of a bean-counting accountant, focusing on yourself and that COP. Whereas under the old 6.0 system,..."

[olympian]

Ugh..wish I could edit:

make that sentence: "...manner of a bean-counting accountant, focusing on yourself and that COP. Whereas under the old 6.0 system,..."

the true. routines now unlike during the 6.0 system lacks fluidity. and with each move either in ladies or men's, they really need to count to ensure that they held a move for a articular length of time before moving to another move to ensure they are scored correctly which eliminates the artistic part of the sport since everything now is calculated.

[olympian]

re: faster's comment,

i think its not only homophobic but offensive. so what if the american skaters are gay? as if it matters. but to pinpoint the american skaters as such is really offensive when lysacek is known to be straight and so as mroz if i'm not mistaken.

[olympian]

jiejie: i dream to see another female skater put up 2 clean performance to win Worlds or the Olympics that is not safe. No matter how good she is, I haven't seen Kim Yu-Na but skate 2 clean performance. I remember at the LA Worlds she missed a jump but good thing it didn't mar her performance.

[olympian]

i think this thread should be renamed the figure skating thread.

[jawnbc]

That would be nice, particularly at the OWG. And if anyone does it this year amongst the top women, they should win.

jiejie: i dream to see another female skater put up 2 clean performance to win Worlds or the Olympics that is not safe. No matter how good she is, I haven't seen Kim Yu-Na but skate 2 clean performance. I remember at the LA Worlds she missed a jump but good thing it didn't mar her performance.

[baron-pierreIV]

I would like to see the most FLAMING FLAMBOYANT performance yet by Princess Janette Weir...altho (s)he comes nowhere near the flamingness of Toller Cranston and John Curry!!

BTW, Faster, there was also...what'sname...Steven Weir (I think no relation to the reigning 'princess' but who never quite made it to the top because I guess he is quite hetero. And of course, there have been Paul Wylie and Scott Hamilton amongst the ranks of the US men...

Edited January 10, 2010 by baron-pierreIV

[Faster]

Sorry if my remark was offensive, it certainly wasn't meant as such, but the bluntness of it was. The media and the general population is still homophobic, so it is hard to sell a sport when you have Johnny Weir prancing about (or Brian Joubert the incredible prick). It was a lot easier to sell when it was Kwan and Yagudin and Plashenko. But I digress. Even in a sport like figure skating there is still homophobia in how its presented. You can clearly see the media's uncomfortableness with this when its the ice dancers and pairs that are in relationships that are getting pushed the most in advertisements.

[baron-pierreIV]

At the unfolding US Nationals, Jeremy Abbott delivered a VERY SOLID long program, no wobbles whatsoever, and ended up 25 points ahead of Lysaceck who had a fall at the end of his quad. Abbott (yeah, I know all about inflating the scores) got something like 268 points; but the judges also were harsh on Lysacek who only got like 243 points.

I think the medals will be between Abbott, Lysacek and Daisuke. Maybe Plushenko and Chan.

[IceNarcissus]

I agree with baron's assessment of the situation.

[Faster]

Abbott has no international pedigree, he won the US championship last year and then finished 11th at Worlds. He reminds me of Emanuel Sandhu, surprises you now and then but when push comes to shove others raise to the top.

Men's

Gold: Oda Nobunari - Japan

Silver: Patrick Chan - Canada

Bronze: Evan Lysacek - United States of America

Women's

Gold: Kim Yu Na - Korea Republic

Silver: Joannie Rochette - Canada

Bronze: Asada Mao - Japan

Pair's

Gold: Pan Qing & Tong Jian - PR China

Silver: Aliona Sachenko & Robin Szolkowy - Germany

Bronze: Shen Xue & Zhao Hongbo - PR China

Ice Dance

Gold: Tessa Virtue & Scott Moir - Canada

Silver: Oksana Domnina & Maxium Shabalin - Russian Federation

Bronze: Meryl Davis & Charlie White - United States of America

I don't know what it is, but after two decades of near misses and judging bullsh!t, Canada will not only win an Ice Dance Olympic medal but take gold.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Faster

[jiejie]

Abbott has no international pedigree, he won the US championship last year and then finished 11th at Worlds. He reminds me of Emanuel Sandhu, surprises you now and then but when push comes to shove others raise to the top.

Men's

Gold: Takahashi Daisuke - Japan

Silver: Patrick Chan - Canada

Bronze: Evan Lysacek - United States of America

Women's

Gold: Kim Yu Na - Korea Republic

Silver: Joannie Rochette - Canada

Bronze: Asada Mao - Japan

Pair's

Gold: Zhang Dan & Zhang Hao - PR China

Silver: Aliona Sachenko & Robin Szolkowy - Germany

Bronze: Pang Qing & Tong Kian - PR China

Ice Dance

Gold: Tessa Virtue & Scott Moir - Canada

Silver: Oksana Domnina & Maxium Shabalin - Russian Federation

Bronze: Meryl Davis & Charlie White - United States of America

I don't know what it is, but after two decades of near misses and judging bullsh!t, Canada will not only win an Ice Dance Olympic medal but take gold.

Abbott--Sandhu = Bad Comparison. Abbott is a skater head-and-shoulders above Sandhu both in skating ability and recognition by international judges, though he hasn't quite got the PCS marks he's deserved compared to some skaters. Sandhu not only had some wonky technical problems but was a complete headcase. Abbott's wise decision to change coaches seems to paying off. He may surprise you.

Podium picks:

Men: I think Chan will make top 10 but top 5 will be a struggle for him. I doubt he will make the podium. He technically isn't up there on the jumps and is struggling this season as well as coming back from injury. I think Canada has hyped him so much and is expecting so much from him, that there may be a bit letdown when reality of the competition he's up against sinks in. He's good, but not that good. Daisuke has also been struggling with injury comeback and stamina but possibly can make the podium. He's a popular skater with judges and fans. Lysacek has a habit of winning not by brilliance, but by staying upright when others falter. He's a popular skater with judges but not with (knowledgeable) fans. Love them or hate them, you can never count out Plushenko or Joubert if they come armed with their quads. Either or both could end up on the podium. The judges never seem to deny them no matter their artistic deficiencies. There are several other men (including Abbott) that with two brilliant skates, could make the podium. If I could have one ticket to any Vancouver event, it would be the Men's Free Skate. Lucky you if you've got one of these.

Women: Your podium may well come to pass, as long as those ladies deliver the maximum skates they are capable of. But none of them (even Yuna) will be able to just phone it in. Yuna's facade of invicibility cracked a bit during Skate America and the GP Final. And rumor has it the technical specialist assigned to the Olympics is one who has given downgraded her jumps (= less points) during two prior major events. The Finnish Beauty Bonus has been a gossip-worthy development this season, from the flawed simple skates vs. fairly high results that we've seen at the Grand Prix. Awaiting evidence on whether same holds true for Euros.

Pairs: Shen/Zhao--I was a skeptic about this comeback until I saw them live in November, and they weren't even at their best then. Gold is theirs to lose. Germans next, then Pang/Tong. Zhang/Zhang looking worse and worse--they have completely regressed since Torino and she doesn't even look like she wants to be skating anymore. One of the top 2 Russian pairs could hop on this podium though--but I doubt in gold medal position. Of course, judging being what it is, all bets are off.

Dance: Virtue/Moir are a legit gold medal prospect, really top notch talent and programs this year. In the absence of any stupid mistakes, they should be somewhere on the podium. Domnina/Shabalin don't belong anywhere near the podium, based on live eyewitness reports and recent videos floating around. Unfortunately, they always get propped up. But with fair judging, they shouldn't be there. (They didn't deserve their World Champ title last year but that's another issue.) The Russians have a long history of brilliant ice dance teams, but this team isn't one of them. Davis/White are podium possibles, also Belbin/Agosto (but unlikely that both would be put on the podium). Everyone is waiting with bated breath to see outcome of US Nationals on this one. Mystery wild card is French team DelShoes--just withdrew from Euros so will take the unusual step of debuting for the season at Olympics. Not sure anyone's ever tried this before, but they just weren't competition-ready this week.

[Faster]

I take the opposite view of the men's field, I think it is incredibly weak and marred in mediocrity while others think it is at its best in years. This is why I think Chan can medal. His skates at nationals were a very good sign and having the hometown score bonus will keep him up there. I just can't see Abbott, Weir, Plashenko and Joubert skating two clean programs, something will happen with them. And Evan is just not that good. I think the men's will be a last man standing competition and Chan is good at skating clean when he is on. I remember going into Torino and everyone ripping Buttle (including other skaters).

I know the Japanese were off at worlds, but not much has changed since then in the men's arena except Plashenko. And I just don't think Plashenko can jump past some of the more artistic skaters if Joubert hasn't been able to. Chan medaled at worlds and there is every possibility he will medal.

Though maybe Oda Nobunari might have been the better Japanese pick.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

Faster,

did you see the short programme of Aliona Sachenko & Robin Szolkowy yesterday?

[Faster]

Faster,

did you see the short programme of Aliona Sachenko & Robin Szolkowy yesterday?

No, I am just hoping any body and everybody takes golds away from Germany and the USA. The only Germans I want to see with gold medals around their necks is Felix Loch or David Muller and Jenny Wolfe. Sorry.

My loyalty is staunchly with Canada and Norway (they suck at Canada's sports and Canada sucks at Norway's sports, I actually can't think of any event except women's SBX were Canadians and a Norwegian are in direct competition as favourites plus Canada owes a medal to Norway in 2006, we sent him a sh!t load of maple syrup, something that isn't popular over there) when it comes to winter sport. I am actually sad to say that I think this will be Germany's worst performance since reunification. Germany winter sport is just collapsing, though there is some bright spots in alpine skiing and bobsleigh and luge will be strong. Germany's biathlon team will be their undoing. 11 medals in Torino, I think at best you can expect 5 or 6 in Vancouver. Swedes on the women's side have been dominate this season, plus Tora Berger and the Russians, and on the men's side Ole Einar Bjorndalen and Emil Hegle Svendsen have been lights out. Plus Evgeny Ustyugov and Greis will be hard pressed to repeat his Torino performance and he has little support this season.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

I am actually sad to say that I think this will be Germany's worst performance since reunification.

I believe/hope that your view on German winter sports is a little bit too pessimistic - I agree with you that the efforts of the German athletes were/are not as good as before 2006, but I am looking forward how the athletes will compete in Vancouver (and that includes especially the biathlon)...

I think the most obvious German winter sport collapse is in Ski Jumping - I can't see any German medal in that sport!

[jawnbc]

Plushenko slammed it big-time in the short at European's. Joubert's a bit behind him. Bodes well for both.

Lysacek was upfront before US Nationals that he would be using the competition to tweak/test a few things--he was not aiming to win and was confident he'd get one of the 3 slots. I, for one, believe him.

National championships in Olympic years are notorious for inflating marks--the better indicators are errors (deducted or not) and program component scores.

Let's see what happens with the men's free at European's. It's been a while since Joubert's consistently skated clean programs in the same competition.

Comparing Abbott to Sandhu isn't fair to Abbott. Sandhu is arguably the greatest waste of pure talent in men's figure skating for the last decade. But figure skaters, like everyone else, make their choices and priorities. And live with 'em.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

Plushenko slammed it big-time in the short at European's. Joubert's a bit behind him. Bodes well for both.

... "m*rde" - Eurosport didn't show the men short programme live - the Africas Cup is shown...