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Planning For Olympics Legacy (article In The Chicago Tribune)


ChiTown16

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I agree. It's great to see refreshing and intelligent discussion about the candidate cities.

Just out of curiosity though, has any of the other bid cities, specifically Rio, conducted any public forums and engaged with the residents and explained the implications, positive and negative, of the games? I know we've covered the news about Chicago's community/neighborhood forums in newspapers and blogs, but I don't think I've ever heard any dialogue or public discourse with the Tokyo/Madrid/Rio Committees and its city residents.

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PS: I heard that Nuzman's "Charisma" (what? LOL!?) was one of the key points of Rio's passing Chigago in the gamesbids Index... LOL. is this serious? Only if by "charisma" they mean obscure things...

BTW, I tried to search threads about Nuzman here and couldn't find any... It's intriguing because I see Chigago's supporters using bizarre things such as Rio being the "World capital of sex changes" to downgrade it's campaign but I don't see anyone mentioning Nuzman's scandals during his 2decades reign in the COB..

Are we allowed to talk about Nuzman here? I'm worried because with such a big "charisma"(LOL, I can't express in words how funny is this to me) GB's may find my post to be inappropriate...

Baron's an equal-opportunity offender. This just happens to be Rio's turn (Chicago, Madrid, and Japan were targets earlier this year for different reasons - some less defensible than others). That particular comment arose during a particularly snarky exchange between a small group of users.

I don't seen much like that from the rest of the Chicago caucus.

That said, no one/nothing is necessarily out of bounds. Questions of appropriateness arise when users start attacking each other rather than discussing ideas and the rather more distant matters of the NOCs, IOCs, governments, and bid committees. We're here to discuss and speculate and learn about each others' bids, each others' cities, each others' countries, and each others' opinions and points of view.

I would guess that we haven't discussed Nuzman because he isn't well known outside of Brazil and much of the Rio caucus has spent the last few months trying to avoid discussing anything useful about Rio 2016. I might suggest a new topic in the Rio 2016 forum since this is a thread on legacy planning and bid plan execution.

This has got to be the best 2016 thread so far -- intelligent, well-written arguments.

And welcome to GamesBids, MrCatra.

I would agree.

CHItown '16

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I share the same worries as you feheva.

I remember back in the day discussing in a brazilian forum about the PanAm games and the ones that were in favor of it would use the "legacy of the games" to justify all the immoral and illegal things that were happening there just to host a 3rd rate competition with OUR money, nosso suado dinheirinho... and what happened? wheres/whats the f. legacy of RIo2007? Underused buildings such the "White Elephant" Engenhão? LOL.. sure.

Where are the thousands of tourists that would start traveling to Rio because of the exposure the games would give to the city? All the exposure that Olympics would give to Rio would be negated by some tourists being killed few months after the games were hosted... Because me and you know that they would apply temporary solutions for the almost civil war in the city of RJ would be temporary. and don't try to deny this please. Our problems are way too complex to be solved by just hosting the Olympics Games. They would bring in thousands of cops/military from other states to keep the games safe and after that rio's population would keep suffering from the same problems as before.

Only a stupid guy would choose any big city in Brazil for the location of his family vacation over some Caribbean country for example. Same excitement with less risk of being killed in the streets by 16yo drugged teenagers. So the games wont help the tourism in any form if we don't fix the secury problems we already have. and we wont fix it any time soon.

(I'm sure that during the games Rio would be one of the safest city in the world. Thats a non issue. But don't come with this legacy bullshit. )

The games will only make the riches richer and it will be a great opportunity for the putrid people that command our politic and the COB to over inflate the costs and split public resources between themselves. (Just like the PanAm games, the only difference is that it would multiplied by 10) Plus, it would be good for the EGO of some Brazilians that need to hear the praises from the "1st world" to inflate their egos...

If Brazil were a serious country most of those people that are trying to bring the Olympic games to rio would be in JAIL because of what they did in the Pan American games. But since we're accustomed with these MF's they're being awarded with hundreds of millions of our money just to PROMOTE Rio2016. and the things that drive me crazy is that we're the favorites to win it... WTF? Before the SLC scandal I would be relaxed because I would be 100% sure that we wouldn't get the games... But since its members look to be as shady as the FIFA members I'm worried.

PS: I heard that Nuzman's "Charisma" (what? LOL!?) was one of the key points of Rio's passing Chigago in the gamesbids Index... LOL. is this serious? Only if by "charisma" they mean obscure things...

BTW, I tried to search threads about Nuzman here and couldn't find any... It's intriguing because I see Chigago's supporters using bizarre things such as Rio being the "World capital of sex changes" to downgrade it's campaign but I don't see anyone mentioning Nuzman's scandals during his 2decades reign in the COB..

Are we allowed to talk about Nuzman here? I'm worried because with such a big "charisma"(LOL, I can't express in words how funny is this to me) GB's may find my post to be inappropriate...

We'll have the WC already. Theres plenty of public resources to be 'robbed' because of the WC... but those people are so greedy that they want the Olympics too.. its so irritating...

(Pros meus compatriotas: Por favor não venham querer pagar de bonito pros gringos não falando q a cidade é segura e bla bla bla pq aí eu vou ser obrigado a postar fotos e vídeos pra provar q vcs tão errados. E sim, é quase uma guerra civil sim. Ou vcs acham q existe alguma polícia no mundo que usa veículo de guerra pra entrar em certas localidades? Que existe outra polícia do mundo que precisa montar esquema de guerra ou então pedir autorização dos bandidos pra entrar em uma área da sua cidade? Que tem helicopteros blindados com atiradores pendurados portando metralhadoras com calibre pra estraçalhar um corpo humano? Acho que não neh... Então é melhor deixar desse jeito.)

Sorry to hear that... As I mentioned hear before, some of the stereotypes are also common in Brazil.

As we have said before, we don't deny the problems such as the existence of violence, we only mention that this will not be a concern during the Games as it was not a concern during Eco92, Rio 2007 and other events on the city. Crime rates during Carnival are among the lowest during the year.

Name the white elephants from Rio 2007. Engenhao is far from being a white elephant and it takes no money from tax payers, since Botafogo pays for the maintenance. The stadium is regularly used, since it is the home of one of the most traditional football teams in Brazil. Since this weekend, 2 matches were staged there, including the Fluminense and Botafogo derby.

Regarding the legacy of the PanAm Games, there were a lot of problems for the organization, especially due to delays by the former governor of Rio: Rosinha Garotinho. That's why the transport infrastructure has never been built. The legacy of the Games was the stadia and the experience for the city to host the SOG. Unlike the PanAm, for which toruist attraction is limited, the SOG will bring many people to the city and generate jobs as well as showcase it to the world.

Don't be ignorant and learn to differentiate the roles in the preparation for the PanAm Games. There were several budget overruns which are under investigation by the Auditors Court in Brazil. This process is still under way and there are no conclusions. Even if they come, Nuzman will probably be freed of charges since the Organization Committee is not responsible for capital projects. This would be in the hands of Cesar Maia, the former Rio Mayor. The several problems with the PanAm budget overruns were dealt with in the Olympic bid and that's why Rio's bid has the highest budget and contingencies. Of course! This does not mean that budget targets will be achieved. And just for information, the no 1 reason for budget overruns in Brazil are delays caused by inefficiencies in the government bureaucracy, like approval process bottlenecks. Unfortunately, the press typically makes a bid noise to say "PanGames investment under investigation" and not a single word when processes are archived.

I see a lot of people pointing fingers without any basis for an accusation on Nuzman. Nuzman and other Federation heads in Brazil (some are in power for over 20 years) are bashed from time to time by their political enemies within those organisations. There are absolutely no solid basis for accusations against Nuzman character, but many Brazilians have the stupidity of believing that the problem of the country is a rich vs poor affair. It's not!!! And, yes, he is charismatic and he is very competent. He turned Brazil in a volleyball superpower and then took Brazilian participation in PanAm Games and Olympics to a whole new level. I am not saying he is not a crook, I am just saying that the facts to support such accusations.

Some news for you: Americans prefer to go to the Caribbean because it is cheaper and closer and they make more marketing actions than we do. Many Caribbean cities are as dangerous and most of our big cities and usually their American visitors are instructed not to leave the premises of their resorts without a guide. In Rio, I see many tourists arriving with fear in their eyes and leaving by realizing that it was not as bad as they thought. In fact, tourists are not preferential targets for criminals, as opposed to Caribbean islands and some European cities like Rome. The citizens of Rio are the biggest victims of the violence.

The videos you might show about violence will be very shocking, but let's face it, the chance of as American tourist visiting the Complexo do Alemao in Rio is the same of a Brazilian tourist visiting South Central LA. Both are places where even the police is afraid to go. But luckily a new program has already pacified 5 favelas in Rio including Cidade de Deus (City of God), the one from the movie. And the Brazilian police is NOT the only one with armoured vehicles. In some countries, the army has power of police and would take over the same duties as BOPE does, for instance.

(Pros meus compatriotas: Quem acha que organizar um evento destes em nosso país é uma perda de tempo e não devia ser cogitado, sofre do que Nelson Rodrigues chama de "Complexo de Vira-Lata". O projeto Olímpico do Rio é bom e pode levar a uma transformação significativa da cidade. Para isso cabe aos cidadãos do Rio e do Brasil, após celebrar a indicação, cobrar dos nossos governantes a correta execução dos projetos. Entre 2009 e 2016, haverá 3 eleições onde poderemos mudar o comando do país, do estado e da prefeitura. Ao invés de ficar sentado reclamando do governo e dos "poderosos", mexam-se. Os Jogos Olímpicos são a melhor oportunidade para que estes projetos não fiquem embarrigados por brigas políticas entre os níveis de governo e os três poderes da república. Com apoio popular, ninguém vai querer levar a culpa de um atraso comprometedor desta vez. Se quiserem fiscalizar os gastos, busquem na Internet, eles são abertos ao público no site da ONG Contas Abertas. Parem de chorar pelos cantos e se mexam!)

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wheres/whats the f. legacy of RIo2007? Underused buildings such the "White Elephant" Engenhão? LOL.. sure.

(Pros meus compatriotas: Por favor não venham querer pagar de bonito pros gringos não falando q a cidade é segura e bla bla bla pq aí eu vou ser obrigado a postar fotos e vídeos pra provar q vcs tão errados. E sim, é quase uma guerra civil sim. Ou vcs acham q existe alguma polícia no mundo que usa veículo de guerra pra entrar em certas localidades? Que existe outra polícia do mundo que precisa montar esquema de guerra ou então pedir autorização dos bandidos pra entrar em uma área da sua cidade? Que tem helicopteros blindados com atiradores pendurados portando metralhadoras com calibre pra estraçalhar um corpo humano? Acho que não neh... Então é melhor deixar desse jeito.)

1. Where the infra-structure legacy of all PanAm host cities? Never happened in the previous host cities, it wouldn't happen in Rio.

Some politicians said they would build subway lines, underground avenues in Sao Conrado-Barra districts. I never believed on that. Because, simply, never happened before for PanAms (In USA nor Mexico nor Dominican Republic - NEVER)...

The legacy of PanAm is the new stadia Rio de Janeiro now have to host events like Judo World Championship, IAAF Stage of Athletic World Cup, FIVB Volleyball World League, FIFA Futsal World Cup, Pentathlon World Cup stage (in Deodoro Complex). The PanAms stadia have been used, some like velodrome, not as often as desirable...

2. Rio de Janeiro is not the safest city in the world - nobody never said it here.

But "War" is too much to describe the crime situation of Rio.

You can post (some already did it here) pics and videos showing police in favelas, people running during police invasion in favelas and go on.

I'm not affraid to walk, even at night in main Rio places (of couse I will not walk in one favela at night).

Violence was not created in Rio. Rio is not the only city in the world with crime issues. Check, for example, Buenos Aires now-a-days situation or some US big cities' murder rates and get surprised!

There are places where you need authorization of mafia or gang to get in in all countries in the world. Talking about pics, check some US-Swat (specially LA) ones... Our Bope equipment will look like civilian guard near them...

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1. Where the infra-structure legacy of all PanAm host cities? Never happened in the previous host cities, it wouldn't happen in Rio.

Some politicians said they would build subway lines, underground avenues in Sao Conrado-Barra districts. I never believed on that. Because, simply, never happened before for PanAms (In USA nor Mexico nor Dominican Republic - NEVER)...

The legacy of PanAm is the new stadia Rio de Janeiro now have to host events like Judo World Championship, IAAF Stage of Athletic World Cup, FIVB Volleyball World League, FIFA Futsal World Cup, Pentathlon World Cup stage (in Deodoro Complex). The PanAms stadia have been used, some like velodrome, not as often as desirable...

Actually the only item that was in the plan was the subway link to Barra, which the Garotinho couple chose to ignore. The PanAm Games was not in their agenda, because their electoral base came from the North of the state and because Cesar Maia was quicker in attaching his image to the project. By the way, the current administration has already held the auction for the construction of the new line.

The only real improvement in infrastructure was the changes in the intersection of Av. Abelardo Bueno and Av. Ayrton Senna, which improved traffic to a certain extent in the area, and the urbanization of Av. Abelardo Bueno which has definetely made the region more attractive to real state development. But this was very limited.

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Feheva, do you really believe that 100% of our governments revenue has to be invested in education and health or are you just trying to find flaws in whatever you look at the Rio's bid?

If something generates profits, but no one ends up learning how to do equations, it's wrong:

If money is invested in sports, it's wrong:

.

If it's invested in transport, it's also wrong:

Lighten up. You do know that our Constitution provides a minimum amount of the governments revenue to be invested in education and health, right (art. 212)?

If you are this fired up about Rio's bid, I imagine how you feel about São Paulo hosting the World Cup. You are certainly against that, right?

If not, that's what I thought. Another case of São Paulo's jealousy for Rio's bid :lol: .

It's true. It is important to remember that some people here against Rio are of Sao Paulo City. Unfortunately, there are many cases.

Explanation: São Paulo is the financial and population center of Brazil. But Rio, the ancient capital, is the most iconic and famous city, the "symbol city". For this reason, it is common to see a person of São Paulo criticizing Rio in the international forums. This case is bigger because of the candidacy of Brazil 2012 (between Rio and Sao Paulo) and Rio wins. This attitude of some friends of São Paulo is not good for the image of this city. Sao Paulo is getting a reputation as "jealous city" because of a few number of stupid people here.

About the relationship Rio-Barcelona, Rio-Los Angeles, Rio-Miami, Rio-Athens...

Well, some people here prefer to compare geographical and cultural similarities.

But about the question "Legacy", Rio and Barcelona are closer. Barcelona is considered the most important legacy in history of the games. Rio, after the games, may be the next example of "great legacy in the history". The reform of the port area, the Olympic Training Center, the legacy for the poor region in Deodoro... The legacy will be great.

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I've always thought of Rio more like Miami than Los Angeles; South Beach/Copacabana Beach, mixed races, tropical, palm trees galore & more of a "South American" Latin flavor than Los Angeles. You'll find more Brazilians, by far, in Miami than in Los Angeles. Los Angeles has, by far, more of the Mexican culture instilled there.

I have the impression that Rio is very different from LA (spent 3 weeks there taking English lessons). Miami has some of its flavour, but misses that packed city ambience such as New York and San Francisco. Miami has that American city layout with a city centre separated from the typical American suburbs. Rio is more dense and urban.

Though Barra looks just like a Miami suburb. Even the lakes complex looks like Miami canals.

The city has many flavours... If you want to compare to an American city, you will probably choose more than one.

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Feheva, do you really believe that 100% of our governments revenue has to be invested in education and health or are you just trying to find flaws in whatever you look at the Rio's bid?

If something generates profits, but no one ends up learning how to do equations, it's wrong:

If money is invested in sports, it's wrong:

.

If it's invested in transport, it's also wrong:

Lighten up. You do know that our Constitution provides a minimum amount of the governments revenue to be invested in education and health, right (art. 212)?

If you are this fired up about Rio's bid, I imagine how you feel about São Paulo hosting the World Cup. You are certainly against that, right?

If not, that's what I thought. Another case of São Paulo's jealousy for Rio's bid :lol: .

I won't bother...

You only assumed a bunch of stuff adn didn't give any real thought about the issues. I'm having a good constructive discussion with some users, such aluz, and I don't need this provocation... If you want to add to the discution, I'll be happy to answer.

If spent some time to read some of my previous posts you'd see I'm also completely againts the WC in Brazil the way it will be hosted...

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It's true. It is important to remember that some people here against Rio are of Sao Paulo City. Unfortunately, there are many cases.

Explanation: São Paulo is the financial and population center of Brazil. But Rio, the ancient capital, is the most iconic and famous city, the "symbol city". For this reason, it is common to see a person of São Paulo criticizing Rio in the international forums. This case is bigger because of the candidacy of Brazil 2012 (between Rio and Sao Paulo) and Rio wins. This attitude of some friends of São Paulo is not good for the image of this city. Sao Paulo is getting a reputation as "jealous city" because of a few number of stupid people here.

About the relationship Rio-Barcelona, Rio-Los Angeles, Rio-Miami, Rio-Athens...

Well, some people here prefer to compare geographical and cultural similarities.

But about the question "Legacy", Rio and Barcelona are closer. Barcelona is considered the most important legacy in history of the games. Rio, after the games, may be the next example of "great legacy in the history". The reform of the port area, the Olympic Training Center, the legacy for the poor region in Deodoro... The legacy will be great.

I'm getting very tired of this... :(

I could also say the people from Rio is getting the reputation to blame people from São Paulo, every time they can't add to the discussion, but I prefer to keep the focus on the issues being discussed. Shall we?

Are you sure the bid plans is 100% right? Try to be critical for the good of your city and country and, maybe, we can find some room for improvements together. I'd love to see the SOG in Rio, but not how it's planned to be hosted? I find a lot of things also going wrong in São Paulo, like the building of new lanes by the Tietê and Pinheiros river's, but we are discussing the SOG bids here...

I would also aprecciate if you don't call me stupid... :)

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It's true. It is important to remember that some people here against Rio are of Sao Paulo City. Unfortunately, there are many cases.

Explanation: São Paulo is the financial and population center of Brazil. But Rio, the ancient capital, is the most iconic and famous city, the "symbol city". For this reason, it is common to see a person of São Paulo criticizing Rio in the international forums. This case is bigger because of the candidacy of Brazil 2012 (between Rio and Sao Paulo) and Rio wins. This attitude of some friends of São Paulo is not good for the image of this city. Sao Paulo is getting a reputation as "jealous city" because of a few number of stupid people here.

I find it interesting to learn about the political rivalries, the controversies, the way that a city operates. Much of what is written in this thread is not evident to people from outside the country but, as residents of democratic countries and large cities, we know that controversies and rivalries and disappointments do exist. I don't see it as criticizing as much as creating the story of a city. The image of a city always changes as people learn more about it.

Even though we are strongly tied with Toronto, people have many personal and family ties to San Francisco, and we send thousands of people and billions of dollars back and forth to New York everyday--as residents of Chicago, we don't know all that much about those other cities' underlying concerns or how those cities work. These cities are more than the piers and bridges of San Francisco; subways, Central Park, Broadway, and Wall Street in New York; the CN tower, streetcars, and lake shore of Toronto. Reading about those other cities for different reasons, I've found it interesting how their people describe their issues and how much a visitor's view differs from a resident's. I read about the significant and persistent political rivalries in San Francisco, infrastructure issues in Toronto, inefficiencies in how New York functions--and realize that they are real, functioning cities with real people who have real concerns and who have real suspicions about what their leaders do. However, since these are cities in the same country (or in a very closely tied country in the case of Toronto), we can discuss them in ways that people in other countries would not. We expect Milwaukee, Minneapolis, and Detroit to have strong opinions about us, just as we have strong opinions about them - often, we often have close friends, colleagues, and families in those other cities. Just as we'd expect people from Rio and Sao Paolo to have strong opinions and insights about Rio.

The No Games Chicago group has made its name in exposing our controversies, our mayor's history, our political rivalries, our problems, our infrastructure issues, our persistent concerns to the world and to the IOC. Reading about the same situations in Rio just tells us that it's a real city rather than a series of mountains and beaches. It isn't credible to claim that a city is perfect and that any event or any effort will solve all of the underlying problems--democratic governments are messy and people's concerns and issues are very broad; significant efforts at solutions result in significant trade-offs and people who lose their property and business and homes, who are significantly disadvantages if not greatly harmed; city, provincial, and federal governments operate with people in office and oppositions - some of whom are more fair to each other than others.

These are realities of urban life. And people around the world expect them to exist. And are suspicious about claims that they don't. If a city's supporters are claiming that these expected realities don't exist, it raises the questions about how much to believe those supporters' claims if they are trusted to plan and execute a huge and complicated enterprise like the Olympics.

CHItown '16

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^^

You do not know the 'rivalry' between Rio and Sao Paulo, in Brazil. It is unfortunate ... Discuss the problems of Rio here, ok, all we've discussed many times. But the Brazilians against Rio here, are always of Sao Paulo. You can talk about many questions, but as a Brazilian, I know that this is part of the 'rivalry'.

One of the first Brazilian members in this forum (Name:Ibirapuera), against Rio, said: " I do not want Rio, I can not imagine how Rio can be more full of themselves as they are already, but I feel this will happen if they win at the end ... but thank God (and Obama) they have slim chances".

Ibirapuera is the name of the most important urban park in Sao Paulo. One of the most beautiful in Brazil. Unfortunately, my English is not perfect and I can not create a text beautiful as you. But this is the essence of the message.

Again, as a Brazilian, I'm used to see criticism from people of Sao Paulo to Rio, not only here but in Skyscrapercity and other forums too.

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I mean I LOVE RIO...having just moved there the other day. But it is NOT ready to host the Olympics in the off season. It should really go to a more compact city and plan like Chicago's.

Legacy? How do we know those will be successful? One can only call them such AFTER the Games...not before.

Hummm... Here is the difference between the candidates. This is the most important point. The choice for Chicago, Madrid or Tokyo is only a choice. The legacy will be known only after the games.

The choice of Rio already means a legacy for sport and Olympic Moviment in South America.

After the games? Well, the revitalization of port area of the city already begun. The urban and transportation projects for are to the city with the national program of "accelerated growth", not only for the games and everything is underway. The choice of Rio is a question of justice.

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The port project will create new businesses such as restaurants and stores that will make the new compound linking the Docks in Praca Maua to the resto of the core in downtown. The capacity for cruise ships will be severely increased creating a demand for those kind of services around the docks, using the old warehouses, like it was done with Pier Maua. If that is not enough we have millions of people that work in the area that would also benefit form the services. I haven't read the plans in details, since they have been recently made public by the City Hall. But it is indeed a pretty ambitious project, but it seems to be yet to be finished.

I agree with you, it could be wonderful for this area and for the city, but I guess we'll have to wait for the ambitious project to be finished, even though I think these plans should be very well thought beforehand for the bid to avoid "emergency" overruns of the budget in order to stage the games.

Of course, you won't find the details of this plans in Rio 2016 bid books since they are not specifically related to the event. The reason for being mentioned is the link between Urban Planning and the SOG Project which is one of the evaluation criteria used by the IOC.

If it is a "selling point" of the bid, of course I expect to find the details in the bid books. Otherwise it is just a vage promise, not a plan...

I have been to Barcelona and went over the Olympic Port. It is basically a residential area with a marina. In the surroundings of the Marina there is a bunch of restaurants and night clubs. Closing the reconstruction, there are 2 huge towers: Hotel Arts and a World Trade Center office building.

I've also been to Barcelona and I agree with you. That's why I'm saying there are no similarities between Barcelona plans and Rio plans for the por area as stated in this thread.

The resources comes from the Government funds that support sport development in Brazil. Like it or not, the vast majority of Olympic sports are highly dependent of public support, and I am not only talking only about Brazil. Most developed countries use the same approach, maybe the US might be a questionable exception.

The training center will provide an asset to reduce the cost of renting facilities, mostly abroad to stage training camps.

I agree again, but how important is for the Brazilian development get more medals in a SOG? Are there other priorities? Should we adopt polices of developed countries while we are a developing country. I know this is the kind of the "egg" and "chick" dilema... :lol:

The social aspect of this project is the idea that promoting sport activities has an impact on the range of opportunities poor people are given. If you don't understand that promoting sport will have a social impact, then there is no legacy. The federations organize national teams for different age groups. CBDA has swimming teams starting at 14 year-old kids.

How vital is professional sportsmen for the social development of a country? Should professional sport take priority over regular practice of sports for the benefit of the health of the citizens? CBDA won't keep older kids in their swimming teams if they are not seen as potential "gems"...

Well, about JH stadium you can complain to Cesar Maia. He is a Botafogo supporter and issued an RFP for the concession that was clearly made for Botafogo. As a result, Flamengo and Fluminense which might be interested, didn't bother to bid. That's why it is so cheap. The reason why is empty is that Botafogo supporters don't go to stadiums. It used to be one of the most passionate supporters in Rio after being 21 years w/o a championship and now they are just lame and boring. Anyway, Botafogo is responsible for maintaining the stadium so the City Hall actually profits from the venue, which apparently Botafogo does not.

Will we need to complain to the future mayor, governor and president? What makes you sure in the bid's plans we won't?

Profits are only made after the initial investiments are paid. JH stadium cost R$350 milion, Botafogo pays R$432 thousand per year. 810 years will be needed to payback the investment... And the worst of all this is that it isn't even being used as a traning facility for athetics :(

Well, the work on education will be done by some funds developed by the OGOC to promote sports among young people. But let's get real! A SOG will not leave such a legacy since its transformations will not reflect in the hardware and software for public education.

Exactly! If "A SOG will not leave such a legacy since its transformations will not reflect in the hardware and software for public education", shouldn't we think in a more economic plan so we can save some money to spend where it is really needed?

On the public health side, the main action is in regards to the sanitization of the Jacarepagua lake complex. These lakes are surrounded by poor neighborhoods that suffer from low level of sewage collection. Those works will have a direct impact in such populations. The other arguable action is also the promotion of sports among the population. Recent researches by IBGE show that among poor people in the country obesity is a larger issue than starvation.

But SOG typically do not leave legacy on such basic services, since they do not demand infrastructure on these areas, neither aa significant improvement on the quality of services.

Same as above and the developing of professional sport won't have much impact the obesity of the general population... Education and regular sports facilities would...

Again, I love the idea of the SOG in Rio, but not the way it is... It sounds you have a lot of faith that this time the promises will become truth. I learned to be more pragmatic by learning from the past and I believe the promises can become truth, as long as they are backed by feasible plans, otherwise they will be only promises and we'll need to rely on luck...

I like the discussions with you, aluz! We agree (in other threads) and disagree in a lot of stuff, but most importantly, we try to get somewhere... :)

PS: Sorry for being too rhetorical... :P

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Nothing's a question of "justice". The reason South America hasn't got the games before is because their bids haven't been good enough on the whole. They're not owed anything.

Chicago could, I suppose if they want, go back to 1904 and claim they're owed an Olympics. Can't see that strategy working out too well though.

As always, it's what you can do for the Olympic movement, not what they can do for you. Any city calling for justice will lose votes.

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^^

You do not know the 'rivalry' between Rio and Sao Paulo, in Brazil. It is unfortunate ... Discuss the problems of Rio here, ok, all we've discussed many times. But the Brazilians against Rio here, are always of Sao Paulo. You can talk about many questions, but as a Brazilian, I know that this is part of the 'rivalry'.

One of the first Brazilian members in this forum (Name:Ibirapuera), against Rio, said: " I do not want Rio, I can not imagine how Rio can be more full of themselves as they are already, but I feel this will happen if they win at the end ... but thank God (and Obama) they have slim chances".

Ibirapuera is the name of the most important urban park in Sao Paulo. One of the most beautiful in Brazil. Unfortunately, my English is not perfect and I can not create a text beautiful as you. But this is the essence of the message.

Again, as a Brazilian, I'm used to see criticism from people of Sao Paulo to Rio, not only here but in Skyscrapercity and other forums too.

You are right. The rivalry between Rio and Sao Paulo does exist, but we should be able to identify if a comment was based on this rivalry or not, otherwise it would be prejudice... Ibirapuera was very unfurtunate with his posts...

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You do not know the 'rivalry' between Rio and Sao Paulo, in Brazil. It is unfortunate ... Discuss the problems of Rio here, ok, all we've discussed many times. But the Brazilians against Rio here, are always of Sao Paulo. You can talk about many questions, but as a Brazilian, I know that this is part of the 'rivalry'.

It's not unusual for your countrymen to be your strongest critics (in Chicago and other U.S. cities, it's often the case that suburbs within 30km of the city center are frequently the city's biggest obstacles) - they are the people who are tied to you politically (through the federal and provincial governments), economically, socially, and who understand the legal and cultural constraints. They also are part of the same news cycles, the same social and political circles, and have a strong point of view about what your city means and what its values are. Those outside of the country often have a much lower emotional and personal connection and a much lower concern about what a city does and what it may or may not become.

As an example - in the U.S., people are often very aware of the health care debate and have often made their decision on who represents their point of view. And that point of view often aligns closely with their political and social alignments - if not economic and financial interests - rather than an objective view of the benefits and costs.

The reasons aren't much different and it's expected that discussions about city and federal politics are affected by the biases of the people speaking. Providing a balanced view is difficult. And it's expected that opinions of people's motivations and actions are affected by a number of factors - including ongoing competition for resources and attention between cities and regions.

CHItown '16

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ChiTown16, you do not understand this issue between Brazil Rio and Sao Paulo. If you visit Brazil one day, take a tour of Sao Paulo (our big city) and ask the people about Rio. Now, For me, this question is closed.

Nothing's a question of "justice". The reason South America hasn't got the games before is because their bids haven't been good enough on the whole. They're not owed anything.

Chicago could, I suppose if they want, go back to 1904 and claim they're owed an Olympics. Can't see that strategy working out too well though.

As always, it's what you can do for the Olympic movement, not what they can do for you. Any city calling for justice will lose votes.

Sorry but now the proposal is very good. Now is a clear question of justice.

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ChiTown16, you do not understand this issue between Brazil Rio and Sao Paulo. If you visit Brazil one day, take a tour of Sao Paulo (our big city) and ask the people about Rio. Now, For me, this question is closed.

Sorry but now the proposal is very good. Now is a clear question of justice.

Again, you are right, but if you go to Rio and ask the people about São Paulo, the same will happen... This is an useless point...

You are the one who says that my opinion has no value because I live in São Paulo, but I respect yours who lives in Rio.

Just try not to generalize and I won't too... Don't instantly dismiss an opinion because of its origin. Read it and think about it. Afterwards, if you still think it is based on prejudice and rivalry, feel free to ignore it!

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Again, you are right, but if you go to Rio and ask the people about São Paulo, the same will happen... This is an useless point...

You are the one who says that my opinion has no value because I live in São Paulo, but I respect yours who lives in Rio.

Just try not to generalize and I won't too... Don't instantly dismiss an opinion because of its origin. Read it and think about it. Afterwards, if you still think it is based on prejudice and rivalry, feel free to ignore it!

City rivalries aren't unique to Brazil. The 1904 Olympics, for some reason, keep coming up. They were supposed to be in Chicago but St. Louis convinced the IOC/Pierre de Coubertin to move them to coincide with their World's Fair (St. Louis-Chicago is about the same distance as Rio-Sao Paolo):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1904_Summer_Olympics

The city of Chicago had won the original bid to host the 1904 Summer Olympics, but the organizers of the Louisiana Purchase Exposition in St. Louis would not accept another international event in the same time frame.

The exposition organization began to plan for its own sports activities, informing the Chicago OCOG that its own international sports events intended to eclipse the Olympic Games unless they were moved to St. Louis. Pierre de Coubertin, the founder of the modern Olympic movement, gave in and awarded the games to St. Louis.

=> Chicago didn't give them up, the IOC moved them <=

I don't think Sao Paolo would do that to Rio, regardless of their disagreements.

The dynamics between New York-Boston (a bit closer than Sao-Paolo), New York-Philadelphia (about 150 km), New York-Chicago, LA-Chicago, etc. would probably familiar to what you see in Brazil. New York-Boston is a strong sports rivalry; New York-Chicago is an economic rivalry; LA-Chicago is a mass media and, for the past few years, an Olympic rivalry.

Often times, people in one city think people in other cities are behaving ridiculously in their own unique way. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that their opinions don't have some truth.

CHItown '16

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Again, you are right, but if you go to Rio and ask the people about São Paulo, the same will happen... This is an useless point...

You are the one who says that my opinion has no value because I live in São Paulo, but I respect yours who lives in Rio.

Just try not to generalize and I won't too... Don't instantly dismiss an opinion because of its origin. Read it and think about it. Afterwards, if you still think it is based on prejudice and rivalry, feel free to ignore it!

Cauê is overeacting. "Feheva" did make strong valid points without any jeously like Ibirapuera (and his/her unfortunate posts). You will find in Rio people who hates and loves São Paulo. The same with people from São Paulo about Rio. I did write before. This rivalry is like the one between Roma (the iconic italian city) and Milan (the industrial heartland). Or like New York-Chicago or Madrid-Barcelona. People from those cities do like to discuss and compare things. Like or friend just said: Don't instantly dismiss an opinion because of its origin. Read it and think about it.

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Funny, I see living proof here of one of the urban conundra that has always fascinated me: the dynamics between #1 and #2 cities. As a kid, I always used to make lists of the foremost city rivalries in major nations, e..g

New York- Chicago which became supplanted by a NY - LA rivalry

Dallas - Houston

(before LA - San Francisco)

Tokyo - Osaka

Beijing - Shanghai

Moscow - Leningrad

Sao Paolo - Rio

Zurich- Geneva

Toronto - Montreal

Sydney - Melbourne

Madrid - Barcelona

Mumbai - Kolkatta

Jo-burg - Capetown

etc.

I always loved to make those lists and wonder about the bipolar nature of the dynamics.

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