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QUOTE (baron-pierreIV @ May 22 2009, 08:04 PM)

Well, I obviously can't speak for Paris -- but I think Paris and Los Angeles (and London and New York) are in a different class by themselves. They are really the premier cities of what we know today as western civilization, and they will always have a lot going for them regardless of year.

As for past biddings, remember that the cost of bidding then might've been $500,000 or maybe a $1 or $2 million. Easy enough to raise back then. But it has become so competitive now and the bids are so well-honed that to mount a credible bid, you've got to least have $40 mil in the bank to spend.

Madrid really isn't in the same league as London, Paris, NYC, LA or even Tokyo -- in terms of world importance.

Geographic studies of urban development generally rank the following as Alpha World Cities plus or double plus.

London, NYC, Hong Kong, Paris, Singapore, Sydney, Tokyo, Shanghai and Beijing.

Being an Alpha plus world city does not necessarily make a difference to bidding for or winning an Olympic games. However the categories they are judged on (economic centre, cultural centre, continental/geographic hub, large population, excellent transport etc.) are very similar to those that the IOC look at when choosing a host city.

See this link for more details if you are interested - World Cities

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/\ /\ Thanks for the list...but except for economic might and sheer mass, I don't see how the Asian cities of Tokyo, Shanghai, Beijing, Seoul and Hong Kong would rank up there with say, London or San Francisco? How many good Basque, Ethiopian, Filipino, Peruvian,or even 'soul food' restaurants would there be in those Asian cities? I doubt there'd be 3 or 4.

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Hi Baron.

Seoul wasn't in the Alpha global + city. Having been to San Francisco and Beijing, Hong Kong and Singapore. There is no competition. San Francisco is a beautiful city. I prefer it to Beijing and Singapore. But Singapore and Beijing are far more important as global cities. The only city I might add to the list is Los Angeles. Restaurants are the most important thing for you in judging global cities?! Its not necessarily about how multi-cultural or cosmopolitan a city is!although from an Olympic point of view this is of course important)

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Hi Baron.

Seoul wasn't in the Alpha global + city. Having been to San Francisco and Beijing, Hong Kong and Singapore. There is no competition. San Francisco is a beautiful city. I prefer it to Beijing and Singapore. But Singapore and Beijing are far more important as global cities. The only city I might add to the list is Los Angeles. Restaurants are the most important thing for you in judging global cities?! Its not necessarily about how multi-cultural or cosmopolitan a city is!although from an Olympic point of view this is of course important)

I know. I just threw that in because those 3 northeastern Asian capital cities have also been Olympic host cities.

And I throw in the restaurants because that is a realistic gauge of the presence of thriving, vibrant ethnic communities that taken together, weave a great polyglot fabric of a true cosmopolitan metropolis. I mean that is important in picking an Olympic host city. Having lived in LA and Atlanta during the times of their Olympics, I know this to be the case. The leading restaurants of the various nationalities hang out there and those become 'unofficial' hang-outs/hospitality suites of their various nations of origin during those magical two weeks.

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I know. I just threw that in because those 3 northeastern Asian capital cities have also been Olympic host cities.

And I throw in the restaurants because that is a realistic gauge of the presence of thriving, vibrant ethnic communities that taken together, weave a great polyglot fabric of a true cosmopolitan metropolis. I mean that is important in picking an Olympic host city. Having lived in LA and Atlanta during the times of their Olympics, I know this to be the case. The leading restaurants of the various nationalities hang out there and those become 'unofficial' hang-outs/hospitality suites of their various nations of origin during those magical two weeks.

hahaha Atlanta a cosmopolitan city???

I just came from Atlanta and well, not at all.

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hahaha Atlanta a cosmopolitan city???

I just came from Atlanta and well, not at all.

Clearly, you weren't familiar with Atlanta pre-Olympics. The final four this year are all known globally as far ahead of Atlanta post-Olympics and, to be fair, the comparison should be Atlanta pre-Olympics to the final four before the 2016 Olympics. If you really want to relate your city to Atlanta pre-Olympics, you're welcome to:

http://www.historians.org/perspectives/iss...11/0611ann6.cfm

but it's not a very compelling way to create a narrative in 2009.

CHItown '16

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Clearly, you weren't familiar with Atlanta pre-Olympics. The final four this year are all known globally as far ahead of Atlanta post-Olympics and, to be fair, the comparison should be Atlanta pre-Olympics to the final four before the 2016 Olympics. If you really want to relate your city to Atlanta pre-Olympics, you're welcome to:

http://www.historians.org/perspectives/iss...11/0611ann6.cfm

but it's not a very compelling way to create a narrative in 2009.

CHItown '16

All they talk about the "legacy" is about the airport and how the city has grown in the past years... well, not an atonishing legacy I would say.

The airport is the world's busiest because Delta airlines has its hub there, not because it attracts visitors from all over the world to visit the CNN Center and the Coca Cola museum.

Im just saying that Atlanta is not cosmopolitan at all, either before of after the Olympics.. and you clearly can see that if you go there... and I dont care how many nationalities are there represented... they are all assimilated into the American culture of highrise buildings downtown, a few highways and malls surrounding everything... a bit sad. You can´t find even a pedestrian street where you can walk like in Boston, for example or many european cities... there are many more american cities more cosmpolitan than Atlanta. Just let´s face reality, the games were awarded to Atlanta because all those multinationals are there located, not for anything else.

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hahaha Atlanta a cosmopolitan city???

I just came from Atlanta and well, not at all.

Did I say that? If you will look at a previous post, I classified Atlanta a C+ city.

What I was trying to say was that...I was living in Atlanta at the time of the 1996 Games. It was not to qualify anything other than a point of FACT. If you misunderstood that, then that's one of the failings of electronic communication. It's difficult to communicate the nuance of context.

But even smallish Atlanta, in whatever limited ways it happened to inherit the mantle AND stage the Games as best they could, was an example before my very eyes how say, a Portuguese restaurant in Buckhead kinda became the 'unofficial hang-out' for the Portuguese delegation/community during those Games. And if there were no Ethiopian or say, Peruvian restaurants in some city -- I don't see why Seoul would have them -- then that minimizes the whole Olympic experience. NO way did I try to make a preposterous claim that Atlanta, by any means, is a cosmopolitan city.

But of course, all the canddate cities make those claims, whether true or not.

YOU linked the 2 thoughts together. I did not.

"I can't believe how you can get away with the distortions you post." ;)

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Good point Baron. Being a cosmopolitan city is a really important thing for an Olympic Games. It really adds to the flavour of the occasion. This was noticeably absent in Beijing. However according to the research multi-culturalism doesn't really make a difference in terms of ranking the importance of global cities.

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Good point Baron. Being a cosmopolitan city is a really important thing for an Olympic Games. It really adds to the flavour of the occasion. This was noticeably absent in Beijing. However according to the research multi-culturalism doesn't really make a difference in terms of ranking the importance of global cities.

No; it doesn't. But, for me, it's one of those 'unwritten' criteria (like the continental rotation) which helps make a really festive, world atmosphere that an Olympics should have.

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Ah, Atlanta! It still seems to annoy so many people that it got chosen. It might not be the most cosmopolitan city in the US, but they DID put on a good games (despite what many people think) and to me it was good to have a Southern Games to make up for the California-centrism of most other US games (I don't count St Louis - it's really more of a historical blip now anyway. And the WOGs are always a different kettle of fish anyway).

Atlanta just did a masterful job lobbying - it really flew under the radar, especially when most people outside the IOC circles were expecting Athens (and wasn't tghat a lucky escape for the IOC). I wonder if Toronto or Melbourne, if they'd been chosen, would still be contending with the annoyance that Atlanta seems to provoke in people.

Actually, for all those that complain the US hosts too much, personally, I think it's amazing that in the more bthan 100 years of the modern games, they've only hosted (Summer Games at least) four times. The way people carry on, you'd think the US had hostd every second Olympiad!

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<_<

Look at the post-war history of the IOC awarding the Games

YEAR - CITY ....... CONTINENTAL GROUPING

1956 - Melbourne - Oceania

(Note: jet age travel began in 1958-59)

1960 - Rome ----- Europe

1964 - Tokyo ------ Asia

1968 - Mexico City -- No. America

1972 - Munich ------- Europe

1976 - Montreal ----- No. America

1980 - Moscow ------- Europe

1984 - Los Angeles --- No. America* (because there were NO OTHER bidders. where were the 'brave' European cities? Nowhere to be found.)

1988 - Seoul --------- Asia

1992 - Barcelona ---- Europe (My, was that only 17 years ago? It sure felt like yesterday. ;)

1996 - Atlanta -------- No. America

2000 - Sydney ------- Oceania (first return in 44 years!!)

2004 - Athens -------- Europe

2008 - Beijing ------- Asia

2012 - London ------ Europe

2016 - Madrid??? Europe??? :lol: -- Very unlikely to happen. Just look at the pattern.

I mean let's just cut the crap. Madrid has the LEAST chance of all. The bookies never lie. ;)

YEAR - CITY ....... DIFFERRENT WAYS OF LIFE AND CULTURE SIMILARITY

1956 - Melbourne - BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

1960 Rome ----- LATIN culture

1964 - Tokyo ------ Asian Culture

1968 - Mexico City -- Latin Culture

1972 - Munich ------- central european culture

1976 - Montreal ----- BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

1980 - Moscow ------- cold war culture?

1984 - Los Angeles --- BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

1988 - Seoul --------- -Asian culture

1992 Barcelona ------- Latin culture

1996 - Atlanta -------- BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

2000 - Sydney ------- BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

2004 - Athens -------- Greek-Osmanian culture

2008 - Beijing ------- Asian culture

2012 - London --------BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

CHICAGO ----- 4th time BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE??????? No thanks. Lets chance the music a little now please. ;)

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YEAR - CITY ....... DIFFERRENT WAYS OF LIFE AND CULTURE SIMILARITY

1956 - Melbourne - BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

1960 Rome ----- LATIN culture

1964 - Tokyo ------ Asian Culture

1968 - Mexico City -- Latin/Aztec Culture

1972 - Munich ------- central european culture

1976 - Montreal ----- BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE ? BRITISH? Let the Quebecers hear you.

1980 - Moscow ------- cold war culture? - you can't even say 'Slavic' culture??

1984 - Los Angeles --- BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE - actually; it was a very Hispanic setting...La Ciudad de la Nuestra Senora de los Angeles, hmmmmm?

1988 - Seoul --------- -Asian culture

1992 Barcelona ------- Latin culture -- actually Catalan culture :P

1996 - Atlanta -------- BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE -- uhmmm... Atlanta is 3/5ths black...2000 - Sydney ------- BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

2004 - Athens -------- Greek-Osmanian culture

you forgot 2006 - Torino ---------- Latin culture

2008 - Beijing ------- Asian culture

2012 - London --------BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

CHICAGO ----- 4th time BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE??????? No thanks. Lets chance the music a little now please. ;) or

2016 - RIO - a NEW Latin culture??

Kinda twisted, Fairplay. Except this cultural rotation thing really isn't as persuasive (to the IOC members) as the continental rotation.

Sorry, kiddo ...we weren't born yesterday. ;)

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CHICAGO ----- 4th time BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE??????? No thanks. Lets chance the music a little now please. ;)

According to your assessment, it would be the 4th Latin culture or 4th Asian culture since 1956. To me, this is not a strong argument.

Like I said before, Chicago is the most ethnically diverse city bidding. If the IOC wants to give the games to a city that represents the world, they should choose Chicago. It is true when Chicago 2016 says visiting athletes will feel as though they have a "home team"

From what I have heard about Rio/Brazil, they make many of their sporting guests feel very unwelcome, and act unsportsmanlike. You will not see this behavior in Chicago.

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"Asian culture"? There is a big difference between Korean, Chinese and Japanese cultures. Its like lumping French, Italian and English culture together. On the whole very similar, but also in a lot of ways quite different.

Also Baron is right. Continental rotation is all about giving a different part of the world the chance to attend the games, rotate the TV viewing times, and open up to new sponsors. Its not really about culture.

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deloxley - how long were you in Atlanta? As an Atlanta resident since January 1996, I take much offense to your dismissal of Atlanta's "cosmopolitan" qualities. We agree that Atlanta does not compare with NYC, LA, Chicago, San Fran etc... in the list of America's great cities but this city is a million times different than it was in the years leading up to the Games. Atlanta has many wonderful neighborhoods that are to be explored that have nothing to do with malls and highways. In 1996, Atlanta had 3.1 million residents in the metro area -- today it has 5.2 million which is pretty astonishing growth in just 13 years.

May I ask what makes Madrid so appealing over the other finalists?

Speaking of broadcast fees (the REAL wild card in this vote in my opinion) -- according to the IOC's own broadcasting revenue report (from page 32), the US broadcast rights for Beijing 2008 were 2 to 1 compared to the EBU's fees ($893M vs $443M). A Chicago Games could virtually double to triple that with the success of the Beijing Games - a Madrid Games would not get nearly as much. And I don't think the EBU will pony up $900M to broadcast the Games.

http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_344.pdf

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Just stop this silly continental-rotaional-reasoning stuff ok? It doesn't apply to the IOC! Knock it off - it's childish!

But no continent has hosted two SOG games consecutively since 1952. Oddly enough it was Helenski after guess what city? London.

I am not saying it will never ever happen, but it is unlikely that it will happen this time around because there are three other very capable hosts. Even if Madrid came out strong in the first round, I do not see them having the strongest finish, but hey anything can happen.

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<_<

YEAR - CITY ....... DIFFERRENT WAYS OF LIFE AND CULTURE SIMILARITY

1956 - Melbourne - BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

1960 Rome ----- LATIN culture

1964 - Tokyo ------ Asian Culture

1968 - Mexico City -- Latin Culture

1972 - Munich ------- central european culture

1976 - Montreal ----- BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

1980 - Moscow ------- cold war culture?

1984 - Los Angeles --- BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

1988 - Seoul --------- -Asian culture

1992 Barcelona ------- Latin culture

1996 - Atlanta -------- BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

2000 - Sydney ------- BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

2004 - Athens -------- Greek-Osmanian culture

2008 - Beijing ------- Asian culture

2012 - London --------BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE

CHICAGO ----- 4th time BRITISH LEGACY CULTURE??????? No thanks. Lets chance the music a little now please. ;)

British Leagacy culture? That's almost worse than Anglo-saxon! Good Sir, do you live in the 19th century per chance? Wot wot!

Soaring's Right, continental-rotation (or alternation, is perhaps more accurate) is a historical fact. Call that analysis childish if you want Czar, but I personally think twisting this very plain and very obvious fact beyond recognition into one with no historical basis - i.e. rather convenient cultural blocs - is far more ridiculous and is an act of spin worthy of the lovechild of Robert Mugabe and Heather Mills.

Now, I can understand if, from a personal point of view this cultural similarity puts you off wanting Chicago to host 2016 (Beijing puts me off wanting to see Tokyo to a certain extent). But I can't take it being used as an argument for what is likely to happen, nor as a desperate argument for why Madrid will win (and it is a desperate argument).

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British Leagacy culture? That's almost worse than Anglo-saxon! Good Sir, do you live in the 19th century per chance? Wot wot!

Soaring's Right, continental-rotation (or alternation, is perhaps more accurate) is a historical fact. Call that analysis childish if you want Czar, but I personally think twisting this very plain and very obvious fact beyond recognition into one with no historical basis - i.e. rather convenient cultural blocs - is far more ridiculous and is an act of spin worthy of the lovechild of Robert Mugabe and Heather Mills.

Now, I can understand if, from a personal point of view this cultural similarity puts you off wanting Chicago to host 2016 (Beijing puts me off wanting to see Tokyo to a certain extent). But I can't take it being used as an argument for what is likely to happen, nor as a desperate argument for why Madrid will win (and it is a desperate argument).

Something else, for the record. I'm all for sharing the wealth and exposing a worldwide television audience to different cultures, the problem is very few cities of differing cultures from what I suppose would be considered Anglo-Saxon culture are either large enough or can afford to host something like a SOG. WOG are different, but you need to be close to mountains or your chances dwindle.

There is something to be said for rotations, but the rotation only works if cities can afford to bid and are large enough to host the world.

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It's also worth noting that the majority of countries in the G20 have hosted a SOG.

Argentina, Brazil, India, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and Turkey are the only members to have not hosted if you do not include all of the EU countries (which is represented as the 20th member). I could somewhat see four of those countries hosting a SOG in my lifetime, but it is very unlikely that we will ever see India, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia ever host a Games. I don't know about Turkey, but they are like Detroit in the mid 20th century.

I do expect to see Brazil and South Africa host. Hey it could be a lot sooner than I hope...

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