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Beyond that, I don't see it mattering. BC/Canada won't care if the Games run over budget...

Really?  :shocked:  Perhaps I misunderstood.  I thought the people of Quebec weren't happy that it took them 30 years to pay for Montreal.  I didn't realize they didn't care.

My mistake. :hmm:

I also have to bring up the point about how the IOC needs the U.S. to bring in vasts amount of money by having the U.S. host. If for some reason, IOC members still do not wish to have another Olympic games in the U.S. for 2016 but still wants to capitalize on the U.S. market, the closest and most viable country is Canada. Just look at how much money Vancouver will bring the IOC. Toronto is directly in the Eastern timezone. Perfect time to broadcast things live to the Canadian, American, Mexican and South American countries which account for a large portion of television viewership. I'm sure the IOC won't make as much money if it was hosted in the U.S. instead but Canada is a strong viable replacement with much of the same benefits that an American city would bring to the table.

It was from dave199 page one.

Sorry if you didn't understand what I've posted...  :)  :unclesam:

Actually, there is a bigger threat to a 2016 Toronto - and to a lesser extent U.S. bid if Monterrey or Guadalahara make good on their interest in hosting, for these very reasons.  The IOC went to Mexico City in '68 as an alternative to Detroit.  I could see them doing it again since the U.S. and Canada have already hosted a lot of games. That and it would silence the critics who see the games being awarded over and over to Anglo countries.  

Quote  

Mexico 1968 - 300+ (est)

Munich 1972 - 14

Atlanta 1996 - 1 (the Turkish photographer suffered a heart attack -- I suppose that's Atlanta's fault, too)

London 2005 - 57

You might as well count 9/11, the Spanish 9/11, the Moscow theatre bombings by Chechens for 2012 while you're at it. Sheesh! What's your point? Like I said these event have nothing to do with the Olympics!

I think that Munich, 1972 did have something to do with the Olympics.

Which brings me to my question again.  Do you think that if Berlin were to bid that the IOC should dismiss it because of what happened in Munich?

Frankly, any comparison to Montreal is pointless. Any and all Vancouver cost overrun will be covered by the federal and/or provincial government and promptly forgotten about. Governments in Canada are in vastly better fiscal shape then they were in the 70s. Canada could theoretically afford to host an Olympics every year, demolish the venues and start again elsewhere without borrowing a dime.

They can even argue that the net new tax revenue outweighs the government subsidy...

Now, I don't think anyone has any illusions that Toronto is a favourite for 2016. Most people know its a longshot, but hey, sometimes longshots happen, especially with a field as weak as that for 2016.

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what it all boils down to is this...you can bring up all the ludicrous, ridiculous, and trivial things as to why the US should never host the Olympics again because it is corrupt an "evil nation" etc.......the US if they put forward a top notch city (which I am sure they will after a careful selection process) will stand an EXCELLENT chance of winning...half of the garbage you bring up is either exaggerated and the thing you bring up that are true are likely to be overlooked by the IOC....as for Toronto nothing will defeat the fact that Vancouver has 2010, if Canada wantetd 2016 they knew what they had to do, Toronto is unlikely to win 2016 be it against the USA, Japan, European nations, etc.....

SOlympiadW, I can't blame you for the US putting a top notch bid. But from where I stand here in a suburb of Ancaster, Ontario, Canada. The US is using the Olympics as a propaganda machine just like Nazi Germany did!

They're using the Olympics to show the whole world that they too believe in peace, love, and understanding. Who wouldn't! But apparently, for the next generation of Americans this won't be the case. It is scary for the next generation to face the problems in this decade alone.

America is using trillions of dollars for funding the war effort in Iraq and the war on terrorism. Corporate companies are making money off of it from the arms and supplies going to Iraq and Afghanistan. From nuclears weapon, to rifles, to bombs, this imperialism dating back to 1961 continues to grow to this day.

All the money that was spent outrageously by the US government, should have been spent to end the AIDS crisis, cancelling debt, promote trade, and ending poverty in the world's poorest countries. But alas, your country concentrated your resources into the Middle East, preemptively took over Iraq, and unilaterally going against the UN and all that the organization stands for.

And the shocking thing is, that it will take 10 years for Iraq to recover from the burdens of history, from the life that they once have, and the civil unrest. What was once peace, love, understanding has been replaced with hate, greed, and ignorance.

Is this the America that is capable, morally, to host the Olympics? I truly don't think so.

I know for a fact that the IOC is not stupid. After all, New York lost to London for 2012. Which proves once and for all the US can be beaten in this game. Mr. Rogge along with other members including Dick Pound, are trying their best to end this corruption with within the IOC. And take back the Olympics to what once was...Peace, Love, Understanding. Humanity.

And you think London is any better? The UK is in Iraq too. So is Australia-was it capable of hosting a moral olympics? The Greeks are hardly bastions of peace, and what about the Communist dictatorship that is China? Should Beijing host the games? EVERY SINGLE HOST, EVERY host, has used the games as propaganda. Sydney most certainly did. Barcelona oozed with it. Los Angeles was a bit over the top, but Seoul was no better. Montreal, Munich, St. Louis, Moscow, Melbourne, Tokyo, Rome, Atlanta, Athens, Mexico City, London, Amsterdam...they all stunk of it. The olympics put a city and a country on show. If they didn't, there'd be no point spending billions on hosting them.

From where I stand in a suburb of Melbourne, Victoria, Australia; America isn't perfect. Bush is a bit of a p-r-*-c-k. Some of their policies are infuriating.

But, despite it's many, many problems, the USA is still the most powerful democracy in the world, and without it, the world would be a significantly less free place.

Yes, I'm irritated that there is a new starbucks down the street from me and the local cafe just closed.

I'm annoyed that Vegemite is owned by a US tobacco company.

I didn't approve of the invasion of Iraq.

The extreme level of symbol-bases jingoism in the US is, at times, sickening.

Their gun laws are awful, their health services no better, and their corporations far too powerul.

But beyond all this, beyond the brashness, the ignorance, the agressiveness, Americans are good people. America is a good country.

And an American games would certainly be more 'moral' then one in China.

BTW, this was REALLY offensive:

"What was once peace, love, understanding has been replaced with hate, greed, and ignorance."

Saddam was shrewd, so maybe the understanding comment is truthful. But peaceful? Loving?

Open your eyes, mate. The leftist rhetoric spouted at you is no better then anything from the right. The US serves it's own national interests, as does every country in the world-including Canada. America is also one of the most giving nations on earth, both at a public and private level. Sure, they want something in return, but so does every country. Do you think the Canuck gov't sends wheat to Africa purely out of the goodness of their hearts? If you do, you might need to study government and politics a bit more.

An American city would be an EXCELLENT host of the games. Toronto would be, too.

I'd like Toronto to get it, but if it's an American city, I will be celebrating that at least the propaganda that will certainly be a part of it, and that will strengthen the jingoism and attitude of superiority as well as favourability to the government, will not be in a country less sympathetic to the ideals of freedom and democracy, like Russia, or China, or Singapore.

(Sorry if that was a bit rambling, but tis guy is really starting to irk me)

Good on you mate, you pretty well express how I feel too. I get really sick of so much of the mindless and childish anti-Americanism on this board, and I like you am an Aussie. But I also do admire America for all its faults (and as you said, NO country is without faults).

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Sure do.  Chris Shaw, 2010 No Games Coalition.  He's with the Green Party.

They campaigned against the Games during the city wide vote but kind of accepted their fate and are acting as a watchdog now.

Watchdog for what?

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"A half trillion dollar deficit in the US is the equivalent of a $100 million dollar debt in Canada :P "

Well, more like $60 billion. Come on though, Canada is about to join the very exclusive club of net lender countries (Switzerland, Japan, etc.) while the US is sweating about a currency crisis.

Isn't that what the "Paris Club" is?  ???

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Remember- London was awarded the 2012 olympics, after withdrawing their bid to host the 2005 World Athletics Championships, cancelling their plan to build a 43,000 stadium at Pickett's Lock and all the red-tape and blunder over the new Wembley stadium. Infact at present, the new Wembley stadium is still causing peple grief.

Toronto's situation doesn't sound that bad, in comparison.

True, in some aspects here. However, the late Primo of the IAAF made a decision to "group" winning bids for the IAAF World Athletics Championships that did include London for 2005. However, it was a bit much and London was unintentionally the casulty of that ill-fated attempt. And, don't forget, I think Tokyo was supposed to host next year's edition, which went to Osaka by "re-bidding" for the event. Only Paris 2003 and Berlin 2009 survived that group decision in the end.

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I'm done with this topic.  When the person who started this makes a highly offensive statement that compares the U.S. to Nazi Germany with regards to hosting the games, I realized that we have your typical Anti American individual who will make the wildest accusations in order to support his pipe dream.
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And you think London is any better? The UK is in Iraq too. So is Australia-was it capable of hosting a moral olympics? The Greeks are hardly bastions of peace, and what about the Communist dictatorship that is China? Should Beijing host the games? EVERY SINGLE HOST, EVERY host, has used the games as propaganda. Sydney most certainly did. Barcelona oozed with it. Los Angeles was a bit over the top, but Seoul was no better. Montreal, Munich, St. Louis, Moscow, Melbourne, Tokyo, Rome, Atlanta, Athens, Mexico City, London, Amsterdam...they all stunk of it. The olympics put a city and a country on show. If they didn't, there'd be no point spending billions on hosting them.

I never said London was any better (even though I questioned the fact that there was a bribery scandal going on within the bid). And you're right. I should be considering all the games. But my argument centres on the US. They're the ones who started the bribery scandal between 1996-2002. They're the ones who forced the IOC to reform their organization. And with Jacques Rogge at the helm, and New York lose, this prove once and for all that this century, under Jacques Rogge, the IOC did the right thing. This might not be a major improvement from the Juan Antonio Samaranch regime, but is a step in the right direction.

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And you think London is any better? The UK is in Iraq too. So is Australia-was it capable of hosting a moral olympics? The Greeks are hardly bastions of peace, and what about the Communist dictatorship that is China? Should Beijing host the games? EVERY SINGLE HOST, EVERY host, has used the games as propaganda. Sydney most certainly did. Barcelona oozed with it. Los Angeles was a bit over the top, but Seoul was no better. Montreal, Munich, St. Louis, Moscow, Melbourne, Tokyo, Rome, Atlanta, Athens, Mexico City, London, Amsterdam...they all stunk of it. The olympics put a city and a country on show. If they didn't, there'd be no point spending billions on hosting them.

I never said London was any better (even though I questioned the fact that there was a bribery scandal going on within the bid). And you're right. I should be considering all the games. But my argument centres on the US. They're the ones who started the bribery scandal between 1996-2002. They're the ones who forced the IOC to reform their organization. And with Jacques Rogge at the helm, and New York lose, this prove once and for all that this century, under Jacques Rogge, the IOC did the right thing. This might not be a major improvement from the Juan Antonio Samaranch regime, but is a step in the right direction.

New York's loss had nothing to do with bribery or reforms or a new leaf, an everything to do with the failure to bed down a viable stadium option early and te fact that Europe was always in the box seat to get 2012.

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I'm done with this topic.  When the person who started this makes a highly offensive statement that compares the U.S. to Nazi Germany with regards to hosting the games, I realized that we have your typical Anti American individual who will make the wildest accusations in order to support his pipe dream.

LA84, if there wasn't any kind of opposition on this board, what would the world be? What would society become? I'm sorry that I offended that statement. But you gotta consider the benefit of it. People like you are talking and exchanging opinions. And that's a good thing!

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As u may have noticed, this board has changed considerably since you left it.  U might want to come up to speed a little?  

It's OK to build up your own candidate city but NOT at the expense of another country/candidate that has done u no wrong.  

The funny thing about this whole thread u started and some of the most inane points ever posted: u just blew your credibility totally out of the water.  Totally, man.   :glare:

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EtW, ho-hum.   Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Wake up baron! To the principal's office right away!

if he has to go to the principal's office, than you should be full out suspended for being insane and knowing absolutely nothing about the Olympic bid process apparently...... :P

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The funny thing about this whole thread u started and some of the most inane points ever posted: u just blew your credibility totally out of the water.  Totally, man.

All in the name of finding the real truth, and come to think of it, I just found it. Thanks for posting.   :D

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Sure do.  Chris Shaw, 2010 No Games Coalition.  He's with the Green Party.

They campaigned against the Games during the city wide vote but kind of accepted their fate and are acting as a watchdog now.

Watchdog for what?

Guardian - he's a watchdog on 2010 and VANOC.

2010 Watch

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What truth?  All I hear is opinion and whining about a battle that was fought and lost 5 years ago and that no one is really interested in fighting again.

well, he did say the last time he was around was like 5 years ago.  So it appears that EtW is making up for lost time - ranting and raving about a battle lost 5 years ago, and which nobody, not even the Toronto authorities themselves are presently interested in resurrecting.   :suspect:

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What truth?  All I hear is opinion and whining about a battle that was fought and lost 5 years ago and that no one is really interested in fighting again.

well, he did say the last time he was around was like 5 years ago.  So it appears that EtW is making up for lost time - ranting and raving about a battle lost 5 years ago, and which nobody, not even the Toronto authorities themselves are presently interested in resurrecting.   :suspect:

Yeah, don't you love these boosters for cities like Toronto _ and Dubai's another big one _ who insist their choices are frontrunners or destined to host when their chosen city hasn't even expressed any intention of bidding.

Do you remember good old Kerry's "Toronto 2016 is carved in stone" routine.

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And you think London is any better? The UK is in Iraq too. So is Australia-was it capable of hosting a moral olympics? The Greeks are hardly bastions of peace, and what about the Communist dictatorship that is China? Should Beijing host the games? EVERY SINGLE HOST, EVERY host, has used the games as propaganda. Sydney most certainly did. Barcelona oozed with it. Los Angeles was a bit over the top, but Seoul was no better. Montreal, Munich, St. Louis, Moscow, Melbourne, Tokyo, Rome, Atlanta, Athens, Mexico City, London, Amsterdam...they all stunk of it. The olympics put a city and a country on show. If they didn't, there'd be no point spending billions on hosting them.

I never said London was any better (even though I questioned the fact that there was a bribery scandal going on within the bid). And you're right. I should be considering all the games. But my argument centres on the US. They're the ones who started the bribery scandal between 1996-2002. They're the ones who forced the IOC to reform their organization. And with Jacques Rogge at the helm, and New York lose, this prove once and for all that this century, under Jacques Rogge, the IOC did the right thing. This might not be a major improvement from the Juan Antonio Samaranch regime, but is a step in the right direction.

Nice work completely avoiding the rest of my post.

btw, Baron, I plan on being in Buenos Aires from July-that's about equidistant from SF and Melbourne. Maybe buy me dinner there? I expect to be very cash-strapped :P

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What truth?  All I hear is opinion and whining about a battle that was fought and lost 5 years ago and that no one is really interested in fighting again.

well, he did say the last time he was around was like 5 years ago.  So it appears that EtW is making up for lost time - ranting and raving about a battle lost 5 years ago, and which nobody, not even the Toronto authorities themselves are presently interested in resurrecting.   :suspect:

Yeah, don't you love these boosters for cities like Toronto _ and Dubai's another big one _ who insist their choices are frontrunners or destined to host when their chosen city hasn't even expressed any intention of bidding.

Do you remember good old Kerry's "Toronto 2016 is carved in stone" routine.

What are message boards for? People can't discuss possible bids without the city announcing any intentions yet? I don't understand why it bothers people to discuss a possible Toronto 2016 bid.

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What are message boards for? People can't discuss possible bids without the city announcing any intentions yet? I don't understand why it bothers people to discuss a possible Toronto 2016 bid.

Let's see.  Since I wasn't here 5 years ago but am always the Voice of Reason... :wwww:,  let me venture to guess...

1.  Regulars are OD-ed on the subject.  It's been discussed to death by the 'regulars.'  How many times can you reinvent the wheel?  

2.  It's nowhere near the realm of possibility (even the more seasoned Canux on the board admit so); and

3.  In this case, the author of the thread has thrown in a lot of invectives and his personal anti-American views (which understandably the Yanks have taken exception to) and only served to make his whole proposition, shaky to begin with, quite unpalatable.

I've tried to comprehend it objectively and EtW says...in so many words...that the Olympic selection process must be pure and unbiased; and then -- and this'll be my last word on this -- goes on to list all the things he finds objectionable about America -- and tying them in with the USOC and America's success or lack of it, in Olympic bidding.  But didn't he just say that the Olympic selection process must be objective and unbiased?  So, huh?  :shocked:

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What are message boards for? People can't discuss possible bids without the city announcing any intentions yet? I don't understand why it bothers people to discuss a possible Toronto 2016 bid.

Let's see.  Since I wasn't here 5 years ago but am always the Voice of Reason... :wwww:,  let me venture to guess...

1.  Regulars are OD-ed on the subject.  It's been discussed to death by the 'regulars.'

2.  It's nowhere near the realm of possibility (even the more seasoned Canux on the board admit so); and

3.  In this case, the author of the thread has thrown in a lot of invectives and his personal anti-American vitriol (which we find unacceptable); and just doesn't make his whole proposition gel.  

How many times can you reinvent the wheel?   :suspect:

Let me address your points:

1) If members are "OD-ed" on this topic, they could easily not post in this thread since this is the only thread about Toronto in this section. Simple as that. Obviously people are interested in the subject if they keep coming back to post about Toronto. People have the right to talk about whatever they want here.

2) It is a possibility if the city does decide to bid. People on the Canadian west believe it isn't because they feel threatend that Toronto will take away something from their games. I don't know why they would think this. They believe there wouldn't be enough corporate support which is complete bullsh1t since all the major corporations are located in Ontario and more specifically Toronto and Montreal (East Coast). And let me make this point one more time, Toronto wouldn't be the favourate, I haven't said this and I don't think any other Toronto supporter here has said this. We are saying that city does stand a chance but it will be a hard battle against the U.S.A.. To say that Toronto has no chance in accomplishing much for 2016, just take a look at the weak bidding field for these games.

3) I don't agree with the anti-american settiment in this thread. But I do agree that the scandals have created a bad image in the eyes of the IOC members. But thats in the past and we all need to move on and I'm sure the IOC has moved on.

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What truth?  All I hear is opinion and whining about a battle that was fought and lost 5 years ago and that no one is really interested in fighting again.

well, he did say the last time he was around was like 5 years ago.  So it appears that EtW is making up for lost time - ranting and raving about a battle lost 5 years ago, and which nobody, not even the Toronto authorities themselves are presently interested in resurrecting.   :suspect:

Yeah, don't you love these boosters for cities like Toronto _ and Dubai's another big one _ who insist their choices are frontrunners or destined to host when their chosen city hasn't even expressed any intention of bidding.

Do you remember good old Kerry's "Toronto 2016 is carved in stone" routine.

What are message boards for? People can't discuss possible bids without the city announcing any intentions yet? I don't understand why it bothers people to discuss a possible Toronto 2016 bid.

That's not the point _ yes, everyone is entitled to an opionion, and to post it, and I for the most part like to get these discussions going, even if we've had them ver and over. It's just this total conviction that Toronto (and even mor so Dubai) will bid, and win, against every shred of evidence to the contrary.

I mean, jeezus, we have people putting Dubai in short list predictions as a likely final two candidate when there is absolutely no indication whatsoever that a bid is even being fantasised about.

Actually, when it comes to Toronto, I hope they do bid for 2016. Whether they have a chance of winning or not, SOMEONE from the western hemisphere has to provide a viable competitor to the US, and not to do so and thus hand 2016 to America on a plate basically knocks them out of the running till the late 2020s. If Canada wants to host a summer gams in the short term, they basically have to go for this one.

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Let's see.  Since I wasn't here 5 years ago but am always the Voice of Reason...
Who are you? An television evangelist willing to take my money away all in the name of God? Please. Tammy Baker could replace you in a second. You simply have an opinion, and I respect that. But don't assume you know everything that you decide you can pompously rule the forum just like Caesar in Rome. There are many questions that are yet to be answered, and I know that this issue isn't dead and I'm willing to investigate on it further if that's the case. Don't even think about it as being dead.
I've tried to comprehend it objectively and EtW says...in so many words...that the Olympic selection process must be pure and unbiased; and then -- and this'll be my last word on this -- goes on to list all the things he finds objectionable about America -- and tying them in with the USOC and America's success or lack of it, in Olympic bidding.  But didn't he just say that the Olympic selection process must be objective and unbiased?  So, huh?  

The Olympic process hasn't even been close to the vicinity of objective and unbiased. There have been several loopholes anonymous IOC members can get away with very easily.  Jacques Rogge doesn't like wires burning in their houses, which is why I favour Olympic reform and that's why the Olympic selection process must be objective and unbiased by all means necessary. The IOC needs to get the right people within the organization, and the corrupt people out. It's just like what the UN is doing as we speak.

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