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Uhmm..Danny says 8th. Will you guys make up your minds? It's going to look funny to the IOC if you can't get your facts together. (Frankly, I think it is #10. First, there's the G7, then China #8; India #9 - then maybe Brazil #10...or is it Russia?)

Also, uhmmm - USA - #3 - population.

#1 - economy (even though it's enduring rough times now); Japan - #2 - economy

So I wouldn't exactly use those stats vs. the US because Brazil doesn't emerge on top in those scores.

Baron, ok, Brazil is 8th for the World Bank and 10th when we check other sources, but, you talk about Brazil like we are 115th...

You people have a wrong idea of Brazil since I started to read this forum some years ago.

Even after we showed here pictures, data and numbers, there are people here that could not figure out how Brazil developed in the last decades.

Money is not a problem for having olympic games in Brazil as it's not a problem for US, Japan or Spain.

And, Baron, if you want to say US is better in everything that we compare, it's better IOC forget bid process and place every Olympic Games in the US...

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So? For a country of 191m people that's not a huge revenue to be honest (about US$3500 per person).

How much of that is already earmarked for public spending and how much does that leave you with?

Our government takes in billions in taxes (I don't know the exact figure) but they still have to borrow to cover spending commitments; most countries do, just as most people do.

I'm sure, as people have been saying, Brazil is healthy financially and would be able to cover the cost of these Games. I've no reason to doubt that. But giving arbitary tax yields without considering outgoings or the size of the country we're talking about is silly. Are we really supposed to be impressed by big numbers, was that the idea?

I agree with you. You are right. I told that to show people that we have the money. This is not a big deal for Brazil. I told that because everyday we read here if Brazil spend money with Olympic Games, Brazil will get defaulted. Never in history Brazil got close an default.

It's ridiculous to read that everyday here... Keep it in mind: We are not Greece.

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Listen Jones,

As usual you have not addressed the issue.

Did I say the IOC does not want to break the chain? No. Of course, should a Games edition be threatened, the IOC as well as the other Games client would be willing to make some concessions.

It remains that money can make anything happen but within a given time frame. No matter how much money you throw at a project, some things need time to get achieved : as I said, besides the construction of venues and other infrastructures, building the appropriate legislative frame, a domestic sponsorship programme, setting up Games operations would need at least 3 to 4 years, in a city that already has most if not all the infrastructure required. Just as an example, assuming that you could use university dorms as an OV, do you think you can come up to a university and say : "BTW, I will be needed your dorm next summer and, in order to install the Olympic overlay, I will need exclusive access starting in 6 months"?

Your claim was that "at least 12 places may take the Games". Besides LA, Seoul and possibly Sydney, name the other 9.

Especially in the current economic situation, I can assure you that not so many cities would be ready to step up as a last minute host.

Spare us your lectures will you. You have never worked for the IOC, nor a bidding or organising committee. By your ridiculous assessment of the CGF 2014 race, you have proven that you have no idea about how complex organizing a mega-event is. The only thing you can think of is money, which one key element needed but hardly sufficient.

Finally, don't try to spin your way as usual: explain how the fact that Atlanta was awarded the Games 6 years after LA (and Yea, a little homework would have taught you that Atlanta was elected in Tokyo in fall 1990) can back up your claim that at least 12 places may take the Games.

Well lets think of this Athens , LA , Istanbul, Doha , RIO , Sydney , Melbourne , Beijing, Your Vaulted Madrid, Seoul , Moscow. Then you have for 2016 backup London . You could also perhaps get the Next Asian Games Host to do it if you are on the Eve of those games . for London 2012 that would be Guangzhou 2010 . The Asian Games thou not on the same scale certainly have very similar requirements and are carried off two years before the summer games. Then for 2016 you would also have Incheon 2014.

We are talking that things are so bad that it is either host the games on a dime somewhere or turn back billions to sponsors , worldwide partners and others. Games Overlays would go out the window Because we are not talking of filling a wish list that others forwarded in competition we are talking about the End of the Olympics Perhaps forever. Here is you clean college dorm be thankful that there are an Olympics PERIOD.

An Available University in the summer ? They are all available in July and August and in the majority of the Northern Hemisphere in many cases from Mid May on. What you get with a Bid competition is a promised wish list in many case.

With the choice of survival of the games with all these things thrown out the window or telling NBC they can have their Billion dollars back the IOC would indeed move if they had to. Athens had no Roof on the Aquatics Centre , Montreal had an incomplete Stadium it would first have to be something very very drastic to stop a staging but the show would always go on just like it did with great compromises in Innsbruck .

Lets Face it a switch would be difficult but things would clear away very damm fast for an Istanbul or even your own Paris if London 2012 gave up their rights to the games.

jim jones

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I repeat. There is a difference between money and the ability to deliver.

A city like Delhi probably has more money than a small Swiss City but a small swiss city is likely to be on time with preparations and provide better overall infrastructure.

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So? For a country of 191m people that's not a huge revenue to be honest (about US$3500 per person).

How much of that is already earmarked for public spending and how much does that leave you with?

Our government takes in billions in taxes (I don't know the exact figure) but they still have to borrow to cover spending commitments; most countries do, just as most people do.

I'm sure, as people have been saying, Brazil is healthy financially and would be able to cover the cost of these Games. I've no reason to doubt that. But giving arbitary tax yields without considering outgoings or the size of the country we're talking about is silly. Are we really supposed to be impressed by big numbers, was that the idea?

Rob I think the idea here is Rio is being truthful in their estimate that could also account for cost overruns . I have looked at the numbers they present for projects on their bid and I don't see it adding to 14 ,5 billion . They present a great deal of cushion to their bid. Chicago , Tokyo and Madrid are falling into the same general trap that has the olympics with egg on it s face with your London's. Athens' , Montreals' and others. Chicago may be able to do this for the advertised price but only from the stand point of our way or the highway.

I also went through the who's Who of Large Companies for Brazil and one of Brazil's largest Petrobras is actually larger

then Microsoft , Wal mart or AT&T. Brazil has more companies like that in regards to relative success . Petrobras is also 55 percent owned by the Brazilian government . You are basically looking at a state with a National fund. It is very often said that California if it was a country would have the 5th largest economy in the World. Well the State of Rio De Janeiro is the Second largest for GDP in Brazil and their 117 billion a year GDP would rank them in the Top forty Economies Globally for their state alone . Then you have the rest of Brazil with 2.1 trillion GDP. It is not only their earning power it is their debt ratios. The Uk is much wealthier for GDP but has to throw a good amount out for Financial Charges to service their debts.

The State of Rio is Ahead of places like Kuwait and other oil rich Gulf states for size of Economy.

like I have said rob this can play a couple of ways . If the IOC wants cost overrun silent for the next 7 years Rio may be the place. Otherwise the three Northern hemisphere candidates set themselves up for more of the London 2012 media type coverage especially with the British Press that will be trying to make the case "see we are not the only ones to have cost overruns and missed estimates ". If the IOC does not want to scare the hell out of future aspiring cities then they might take there chances on the lower estimates and pray that everything go to the dime of the estimate. The Lack of Control is what I think will kill off interest.

jim jones

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I repeat. There is a difference between money and the ability to deliver.

A city like Delhi probably has more money than a small Swiss City but a small swiss city is likely to be on time with preparations and provide better overall infrastructure.

Money , Manpower and ability . Those are the three things. New Delhi's problem generally is it is in India. Believe me I have worked with them and they don't take things in a serious manner. They have Manpower and Money but lack desire to take the bull by the horns. This is their general problem with lack of ability to deliver.

Jim jones

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Baron, ok, Brazil is 8th for the World Bank and 10th when we check other sources, but, you talk about Brazil like we are 115th...

You people have a wrong idea of Brazil since I started to read this forum some years ago.

Even after we showed here pictures, data and numbers, there are people here that could not figure out how Brazil developed in the last decades.

Money is not a problem for having olympic games in Brazil as it's not a problem for US, Japan or Spain.

And, Baron, if you want to say US is better in everything that we compare, it's better IOC forget bid process and place every Olympic Games in the US...

Danny explaining anything that relates to a country these guys have not been to is like spitting in the wind. They **** all over Beijing 2008 which were the most successful games from every standpoint you could measure.

the funny thing is all these so called first world hosts can F up every second olympics but it is the harsh thinking that their so called superior societies are the only ones that can do the job. They certainly were proven very wrong last year and as every single frontier nations hosted with possibly the exception of my own country with Montreal 1976.

I frankly hope they are again proven wrong in their total ignorance or rather their very closed minds.

Jim jones

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Danny explaining anything that relates to a country these guys have not been to is like spitting in the wind. They **** all over Beijing 2008 which were the most successful games from every standpoint you could measure.

the funny thing is all these so called first world hosts can F up every second olympics but it is the harsh thinking that their so called superior societies are the only ones that can do the job. They certainly were proven very wrong last year and as every single frontier nations hosted with possibly the exception of my own country with Montreal 1976.

I frankly hope they are again proven wrong in their total ignorance or rather their very closed minds.

Jim jones

The best comment I've read here ever.

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because like the Abuja fanatics you're retarded.

you all just follow whoever supports your bid without actually bothering to read your candidature file.

If Cape Town/ South Africa ever bids I def won't be removing Jim from the ignore button in the hopes of him spewing rubbish that sounds nice about our bid.

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Danny explaining anything that relates to a country these guys have not been to is like spitting in the wind. They **** all over Beijing 2008 which were the most successful games from every standpoint you could measure.

the funny thing is all these so called first world hosts can F up every second olympics but it is the harsh thinking that their so called superior societies are the only ones that can do the job. They certainly were proven very wrong last year and as every single frontier nations hosted with possibly the exception of my own country with Montreal 1976.

I frankly hope they are again proven wrong in their total ignorance or rather their very closed minds.

Jim jones

The best comment I've read here ever.

The condescending and patronising "I'm the only person who understands Africa and and the developing world" Jones is back I see. :lol:

Don't get sucked in by him Danny. He predicted Abuja would win by a landslide against Glasgow for the right to host the 2014 Commonwealth Games, when the opposite in fact happened. :lol:

In reality, he likes to sound like he knows what he's talking about and likes to pretend he knows more than everyone else. But he doesn't. You only have to look at the comments on his profile and his user-rating to see what the majority think of him here.

Beijing was successful but Sydney is still the very best games in my opinion. Beijing was not the perfect host - it got a few things wrong - and just because many of us say that, it doesn't mean we have "very closed minds" or some sort of superiority complex.

Nor, JJ before you go any further down the track of trying to make yourself the official spokesman for the developing world, has anyone said developed "societies are the only ones that can do the job." You make up some bullshit sometimes Jones. Find me an example of where anyone has said this. Go on, I'm wating for quotations. Raising concerns about a bid which happens to be in the developing world does not equate to this. It just doesn't.

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The condescending and patronising "I'm the only person who understands Africa and and the developing world" Jones is back I see. :lol:

Don't get sucked in by him Danny. He predicted Abuja would win by a landslide against Glasgow for the right to host the 2014 Commonwealth Games, when the opposite in fact happened. :lol:

In reality, he likes to sound like he knows what he's talking about and likes to pretend he knows more than everyone else. But he doesn't. You only have to look at the comments on his profile and his user-rating to see what the majority think of him here.

Beijing was successful but Sydney is still the very best games in my opinion. Beijing was not the perfect host - it got a few things wrong - and just because many of us say that, it doesn't mean we have "very closed minds" or some sort of superiority complex.

Nor, JJ before you go any further down the track of trying to make yourself the official spokesman for the developing world, has anyone said developed "societies are the only ones that can do the job." You make up some bullshit sometimes Jones. Find me an example of where anyone has said this. Go on, I'm wating for quotations. Raising concerns about a bid which happens to be in the developing world does not equate to this. It just doesn't.

Well, you don't have to say exactly this.... one can imply that from the comments you guys always make about developing countries....

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Did you even read what I wrote? -_-

There's a massive difference between raising legitimate concerns and yours and Jones' suggestion that we have no belief whatsoever in Brazil and other emerging countries.

Again, find me genuine quotes (not the sort of wind-ups Baron indulges in) which suggests anyone thinks only developed countries can pull off the Olympics? Go on...

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We are talking that things are so bad that it is either host the games on a dime somewhere or turn back billions to sponsors , worldwide partners and others. Games Overlays would go out the window Because we are not talking of filling a wish list that others forwarded in competition we are talking about the End of the Olympics Perhaps forever. Here is you clean college dorm be thankful that there are an Olympics PERIOD.

Simple question Jones: do you know what Games Overlays is?

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Well lets think of this Athens , LA , Istanbul, Doha , RIO , Sydney , Melbourne , Beijing, Your Vaulted Madrid, Seoul , Moscow. Then you have for 2016 backup London . You could also perhaps get the Next Asian Games Host to do it if you are on the Eve of those games . for London 2012 that would be Guangzhou 2010 . The Asian Games thou not on the same scale certainly have very similar requirements and are carried off two years before the summer games. Then for 2016 you would also have Incheon 2014.

OK, smart guy, care to answers some of these questions :

- Athens: What would Athens use as accommodation for the media? (the 6 or 7 media villages used during the Athens Games are not available anymore) Does Athens have enough universities dorms that could make up an Olympic Village? Where are they located compared to Athens venues master plan?

- LA: based on the 2016 US domestic bid books, no doubt they could be a back-up

- Istanbul: do you know how much progress has been made on the 10 permanent venues to be built in their 2012 application file? On the 15,000-room Media village? If not do you know any alternative media accommodation? What's the alternative for the non-existing Olympic Village? Are you sure Istanbul current transport infrastructure would be compatible with this alternative (the OV was to be located just 4 km of the Olympic Park, if it's located further then transports become more complex)

- Doha: according to their application file, Doha is missing 4 major permanent venues (including aquatics centre) which, should construction start next year, are not due to completion before mid-2014; same questions as for the other, where in the State of Qatar, do you find accommodation for the Athletes, media, workforce not to mention spectators?

- Rio: Rio's plans call for an brand new OV, a large media village; given the current number of rooms available in Rio, what's the alternative for accommodation of these games clients?

-Sydney: could be an emergency back-up host, although accommodation would be a challenge

- Melbourne: by your own admission in the CWG thread, Melbourne couldn't be a backup host for the CWG and you would want us to believe they could be an emergency back up host for the Olympics?

- Beijing: could do it

An Available University in the summer ? They are all available in July and August and in the majority of the Northern Hemisphere in many cases from Mid May on. What you get with a Bid competition is a promised wish list in many case.

And how much planning do you need to bring a campus dorm to operational OV (by that, I mean security, transportation operation from the Village to venues, setting up restaurants, an international zone, media facilities, services area..)? And how much time do you need to implement those plans?

the show would always go on just like it did with great compromises in Innsbruck .

Care to elaborate on those "great compromises"?

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Hi Jeremie. I personally don't know what Games Overlays are. What does the term mean?

It's everything that needs to be installed in a venue to conduct Games operations:

  • Sports equipment
  • Information Technology Equipment
  • Any additional lightning, sound and power supply equipment
  • Media equipment
  • Zoning equipment (fences, portals and so on needed to separate athletes, staff, spectators, VIPs, media in the venue)
  • And so on...

That's why when someone says "Games overlay would go out", I am rather sceptical about the qualifications of that someone to provide any meaningful information...

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and myself unlike you, actually bothers to read the candidature file of each city.

forgive me for not being impressed by your ignorance.

Yeah you yourself who think Greenpoint stadium could be flipped into a IAAF Class one athletics Stadium in a Year without tear down half the stadium for the 2011 All-African Games . Mo you may read a great deal but your comprehension skills are not there it seems.

Jim jones

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