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Re the article Rob posted -- yes, it is deplorable. On the other hand, what jobs would those men have back home? NOTHING. The trick is to force the Qataris to adhere to and practice fair, safe and justified working conditions. And that god-damned FIFA should be on the back of the Al-Thanis to do just that.


I meant in terms of the weather.

Well, it wouldn't work because you NEED those TV contracts for the event to succeed. So you have to find a kinder time and when the TV schedule will allow for it...and right now, that appears to be a Nov-December slot. So I don't understand why u guys are all shooting for how about this month? Or that month? It'll only work if it does not bump into the IOC and dislodge OTHER scheduled global TV events. (European leagues are NOT global, so they will have to adjust.)

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We've also made it out of the knock-out round more recently.

Tony if I see you say England should be given the hosting rights one more time I will throw my computer. This is really getting old pal. There's nothing wrong with Russia hosting in 2018 and 2022 shou

Someone needs to sue FIFA over this mess. Rivals bidders, European leagues and clubs, TV networks, sponsors, players...all are being mucked about because of FIFA's inability to think properly. The bi

But the WC only gets global attention when it comes to 2 nites of the semi-finals and 1 night for the finals. So basically that's just 3 nites of good numbers. A WOG though offers 17 days (granted some days may not have the main marquee events) of continuous action. The point is that the marketing consultants of both would advise STRONGLY against it. Why would you cut off your nose despite your face?? :blink: The IOC owns those weeks in February. The best time for a resked WC is the Nov-Dec 2022 that they will most probably settle on. I don't get why people are trying to 2nd guess it? Do you know something that FIFA, the leagues, their marketing consultants don't?

How big is the WOG, Mr. Baron? I checked google for global audiences but I could only find those bullshit numbers about 10 billion people watching it (somehow). Like there's a shitty cable channel in brazil broadcasting the games and they 200million people to the numbers, lol.

So I checked US TV ratings and found this:

So consider this hypothetical. Imagine that NBC's Vancouver Games weren't on Pacific time, but were on the other side of the world. Now imagine the U.S. team ended up with fewer than half the medals — 13 total — than it has won in Vancouver. And pretend snowboarding was a new and oft-ridiculed sport rather than an established TV draw. And that the U.S. hockey team was a bust rather than a surging squad.

Just kidding about that being hypothetical: That describes CBS' snakebitten 1998 Games.

And primetime coverage of those 1998 Games, through 11 Olympic nights, was averaging 16.4% of U.S. households.

NBC's Vancouver primetime coverage, through 11 nights of a mother lode of U.S. medals, is averaging 14.3down 13% from Nagano.

Horrible ratings, no? We are talking about primetime here! For a global event like the WOGs.. I mean, isn't the US WOG's biggest market by far? I tried to find the tv ratings in other countries but couldn't find any. So yeh, how big WOGs really are globally, Mr. Baron? Do you know any research showing real numbers?

ps: Platini wanted to change European Football's calendar way before the WC in Qatar. He's behind all this, trying to make the competitions start and finish inside the calender year, which I agree. He wants to be the next FIFA president, so he's the one pushing for this solution to save Qatar's WC.

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The numbers are off limits to people like u, Catra. :lol:

What I'm saying is -- say, the 2 semi-finals and the finals. That's probably like only 6 hours of TV time to be sold...and since they DON'T interrupt the games, so maybe 7-8 minutes of TV advtg time before the Game. 10 mins of advtg during the break...and maybe another 5 mins at the end. So for 2 hours, a TV station only sold something lie 23 minutes x 3 Games = something like 1.25 hrs of TV time. The Winter Games (in No. America, Europe, Japan, Korea and northern China) broadcast say, very conservatively 150 hours; so even 20 mins per hour of ads = you do the math.

And there is something called a "Sweeps Week" during the Winter Olympics (at least in the US) when the viewing results for that week sets the TV ad prices for (and I think Quaker can give better data here becuz he works in the industry) for that network for the next quarter or so...therefore making the WOG telecasts a premium for the TV industry. That is when NBC is able to get a lot of its money back....most of which went to the IOC. That "Sweeps week" never happens during World Cup telecasts.

It's more than just numbers for one show or just 2 hours. It's a whole package for NBC and they use those 17 Olympic days (for summer or winter) as a springboard for the next shows coming up -- so the value for the network and its affiliates is immeasurable. That's NOT done in just scattered 6 hours of the World Cup.

And it's NOT just me. The IOC wants FIFA to stay off limits during its 2 weeks of WOG in February. Even the Oscars, another 1-nite global telecast with several hundred millions viewers, postpones its show during a WOG year so that sponsors are not forced to make tight choices.

U come from a football bkgd so u wouldn't understand and Brazil does not figure in the Winter Games telecasts. Why didn't you look up comparable WC numbers for the US? U are really comparing apples to oranges. So I don't know what your point is?? Besides, I really don't like to discuss with u becuz u're a very argumentative, belligerent poster.

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Well, those were to accommodate TV prime-time viewers in a certain wee continent that starts with an "E." :rolleyes:

Yes, we all know the reason for that. I was only trying to say that FIFA hasn't considered heat an obstacle in the past when that has been necessary. Nor high altitude, like in the case of Mexico.

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The numbers are off limits to people like u, Catra. :lol:

What I'm saying is -- say, the 2 semi-finals and the finals. That's probably like only 6 hours of TV time to be sold...and since they DON'T interrupt the games, so maybe 7-8 minutes of TV advtg time before the Game. 10 mins of advtg during the break...and maybe another 5 mins at the end. So for 2 hours, a TV station only sold something lie 23 minutes x 3 Games = something like 1.25 hrs of TV time. The Winter Games (in No. America, Europe, Japan, Korea and northern China) broadcast say, very conservatively 150 hours; so even 20 mins per hour of ads = you do the math.

And there is something called a "Sweeps Week" during the Winter Olympics (at least in the US) when the viewing results for that week sets the TV ad prices for (and I think Quaker can give better data here becuz he works in the industry) for that network for the next quarter or so...therefore making the WOG telecasts a premium for the TV industry. That is when NBC is able to get a lot of its money back....most of which went to the IOC. That "Sweeps week" never happens during World Cup telecasts.

It's more than just numbers for one show or just 2 hours. It's a whole package for NBC and they use those 17 Olympic days (for summer or winter) as a springboard for the next shows coming up -- so the value for the network and its affiliates is immeasurable. That's NOT done in just scattered 6 hours of the World Cup.

And it's NOT just me. The IOC wants FIFA to stay off limits during its 2 weeks of WOG in February. Even the Oscars, another 1-nite global telecast with several hundred millions viewers, postpones its show during a WOG year so that sponsors are not forced to make tight choices.

U come from a football bkgd so u wouldn't understand and Brazil does not figure in the Winter Games telecasts. Why didn't you look up comparable WC numbers for the US? U are really comparing apples to oranges. So I don't know what your point is?? Besides, I really don't like to discuss with u becuz u're a very argumentative, belligerent poster.

I mean, the way you wrote made it sound - not sure if it was your intention - that WOG was a bigger global event than FIFA's WC, which doesn't come even close, IMHO. I just pointed out the US prime-time numbers because firstly I could not find any other and secondly to show that even on WOG's biggest market PRIMETIME slot the ratings were low (14% of US households. Still a success, tho. Not disputing this, but if the US brings 14% to the table, what can we expect from other countries that are much smaller?)

IIRC the Ratings for USAvsENgland (1st round match) drew similar numbers on Saturday, 2pm. Summing up Univision with ABC ratings. See my point? And Americans don't like Football that much. That shows the power of FIFA's World Cup on a Market they are still trying to conquer. Continuing: Football is Europe's passion aswell, so outside of some anomalies, not sure how the WOGs could be bigger than the WC there. Then on the entire southern hemisphere, lol. I don't need to say anything.

That's why I asked how big is the WOG, I really don't know. If we could put on simple terms: Is it 1/3 as big as the SOG? Half as big?

I realize all the problems of having two big events intercalating would cause. I'm not denying this. I'm just saying FIFA doesn't really care. If they have to host it on February, they will. That's the bottom line. Platini could creat the biggest opposition to such a move but he already wanted to change Europeans' Calendar and he wants the Arab vote, so... If it have to be in January/February it'll be. FIFA wont lose much...

ps: you hurt my feelings saying you don't like to discuss with me. I didn't expect this from you, Mr. Baron.

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I realize all the problems of having two big events intercalating would cause. I'm not denying this. I'm just saying FIFA doesn't really care. If they have to host it on February, they will. That's the bottom line. Platini could creat the biggest opposition to such a move but he already wanted to change Europeans' Calendar and he wants the Arab vote, so... If it have to be in January/February it'll be. FIFA wont lose much...

ps: you hurt my feelings saying you don't like to discuss with me. I didn't expect this from you, Mr. Baron.

I'll discuss this one with you then. I can't speak expertly on what the worldwide implications are since, like baron, I focus more on the United States and what the numbers are there. That said, FIFA wants their signature event to have the stage all to themselves. That's why June/July, despite not being the best months for television viewership in the Northern Hemisphere, is the best time for it. Since that wouldn't be an option for a Qatar World Cup in 2022, FIFA needs to figure out what's best for their event. I disagree that FIFA doesn't care about other global sporting events. They absolutely do care. If the powers that be determine that a January/February window is what's best for them as it relates to UEFA and the EPFL and the other football governing bodies, then so be it. But I guarantee you the fact that that's when the Winter Olympics are held WILL be a factor in their decision.

I think FIFA would lose out more than you think from the World Cup going up against the Olympics. The sponsors (especially a company like Coca-Cola with large interests in both events) would be hurt. The broadcaster in many countries, not just the United States, would be hurt as it devalues both events. Again, FIFA has created a mess here where there is probably not going to be a good solution that makes everyone involved happy. The point though is that there are all these political and financial issues FIFA has to deal with on this one, and that's only counting their own interests. To pick a fight with the IOC (which is what they'd be doing if they put the World Cup close to the Winter Olympics) is only adding to the problem and probably making it worse, not better.

Specific to United States television ratings for the Olympics.. those numbers can be deceiving. In 1998, the highest rated primetime series on American television was Seinfeld with an average rating of 21.7. In 2010, the highest rated program was American Idol with an average of 13.7. So when you compare it to that, the numbers for Vancouver relative to Nagano (also remember there was much less cable and Internet coverage of those Olympics) aren't so alarming.

Well, the way we're going it might well be 10 billion by 2022.

Current projections say that the population will be somewhere between 10-11 billion by the end of the century. I know you're just joking, but we're only around 7 billion now. We have a ways to go to get to 10 billion.

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Catra so when is the world's population 10 billion? :blink:

As far as I know 3 billion watched all or parts of the opening ceremony in Vancouver which is a significant chunk.

What part of "bullshit numbers like..." you didn't understand? This "3 billion" number you presented is also bullshit. Like NFL drewing billions of spectators for the superbowl event, which is also a bullshit #.

Someone explained those numbers on this forum few years ago. You know how they get this? If a tv station from Brazil broadcast the games, they count 200m spectators LOL, if a US channel broadcast the games, they do the same. They count all the potential spectators from that country. The 1st and only sportive event to truly reach a 1 billion audience was Pequim.

The 10bn number I mentioned earlier is actually an official number for the '06 WOG in Torino in terms of cumulative audience. For reference, 2006 WC had a cumulative audience of 26 billion people.

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Pequim = Beijing. Sorry.

Mr. Quaker, I barely disagree with you. My main arguing point was when Mr. Baron said WC only have 3 dates (LOL) while he made it sound - not sure it was his intention - that the WOG was such a global event. A fricking 1st round game between England and USA on a Saturday noon drew similar numbers (counting unavision) to what NBC got on Prime Time for the WOGs held in America's Hat. A WOG simply can't be compared to the WC worldwide and sooner rather than later - considering the super positive signs we're getting - Football - or sawker as you Yankees say - will outdraw the WOGs in the glorious nation of United States of America too.

Now onto minor points:

That said, FIFA wants their signature event to have the stage all to themselves. That's why June/July, despite not being the best months for television viewership in the Northern Hemisphere, is the best time for it.

Actually WC happens in June/July since 1930. It wasn't because they want to have the stage all to themselves. It needed to be during the vacation period so teams could let the players play for their NTs and also people to travel.

The sponsors (especially a company like Coca-Cola with large interests in both events) would be hurt.

Could be. But they'd just swallow it. Coca sponsors FIFA since back in the days Cats where still had seven lifes, what would Coke do?. Anyways, I just don't see how they'd significantly hurt. Only one WC. Would they get in the way of a Arab World Cup? That wouldn't sound well. Can you imagine the shitstorm?

So yeh, they'd swallow ny minor thing.

Anyways, my point is that unless something MAJOR gets on the way they'll have the World Cup debut on the same fucking hour of the WOG, if necessary.

ps: about picking a fight with IOC, FIFA would love to see football dropped from the Olympics. Not even the 3 players over 23 are guaranteed by FIFA anymore.

Ffootball is the sport that brings the most ticket-revenue in almost every SOG edition. Little cost, too. Because most countries don't need to build any stadium to host Olympic Games.

Specific to United States television ratings for the Olympics.. those numbers can be deceiving. In 1998, the highest rated primetime series on American television was Seinfeld with an average rating of 21.7. In 2010, the highest rated program was American Idol with an average of 13.7. So when you compare it to that, the numbers for Vancouver relative to Nagano (also remember there was much less cable and Internet coverage of those Olympics) aren't so alarming.

Yeh I know. I said "the games were a success locally". I was just pointing out that on WOGs BIGGEST MARKET BY FAR the games only get 14% of the potential viewers.. I repeat: WOG simply can't be compared to the WC.

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Pequim = Beijing. Sorry.

Mr. Quaker, I barely disagree with you. My main arguing point was when Mr. Baron said WC only have 3 dates (LOL) while he made it sound - not sure it was his intention - that the WOG was such a global event. A fricking 1st round game between England and USA on a Saturday noon drew similar numbers (counting unavision) to what NBC got on Prime Time for the WOGs held in America's Hat. A WOG simply can't be compared to the WC worldwide and sooner rather than later - considering the super positive signs we're getting - Football - or sawker as you Yankees say - will outdraw the WOGs in the glorious nation of United States of America too.

I repeat: WOG simply can't be compared to the WC.

Aside from the famous game -- when was that? 1950 or 1954? When will that happen again? Otherwise, if it's like a Peru - Cameroon or a Ukraine - Korea matchup -- which is more like how they would get paired, the viewership for those in the US would be negligible. WHen I mention the 2 semifinals and the finals, I think that's only when you get significant TV numbers that make the networks pay a premium for the rights. But they wouldn't pay a premium if the matches were a DPR Korea v. Australia or a Latvia v. Vietnam game.

They're apples and oranges. WC might have bigger audiences globally but I think the WOGs deliver more concentrated audiences in the wealthier, northern winter countries. Northern audiences are trapped in their homes in the winter thus park themselves in front of the TV for marquee nites ready for a 2-3 hour stretch of WOG programming. Summer WC audiences just sit down in front of the TV at the start of the games; check the BBQ, make phone calls, etc., etc. during the WC mid-game breaks, thereby diluting any effectiveness of any of the ads. There are a lot more distractions in a summer WOG telecast that is why...even though globally, it might have more numbers, it's very loose -- and how do you measure the viewers in bars and pubs across the world? Whereas, again in the northern winters, it is easier and more predictable to count viewing heads per household than it is for football matches. And there is live streaming now too; I don't know how viewer-gathering methods and results there match up.

(Also, because a large part of the WC audience in the US is the Latino market; so figures are split AND advertisers have double the costs because they have to produce a second set of Latino market-geared ads vs. only the Anglo version for the WOG advertising. Further, you will get more predominantly, poorer males from Indonesia, Pakistan, the Arab countries, etc.,who make up the majority of WC audiences...but for the WOGs, advertisers get a more rounded, higher-income male-female-teenager demographic which the advertisers prefer.)

But the fact that (at least in the US) a minute's worth of TV ad time for a WOG is more expensive than a minute's worth of summer WC coverage, means that WOG telecasts can deliver better, more reliable numbers and perhaps with greater purchasing power than WC telecasts where viewers are all drunk up in either mass hysteria or total dejection that any TV ads barely make a dent on their consciousness.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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I don't think the Vancouver U.S. TV ratings are that impressive when you consider that the ratings for the Summer Games have been increasing compared to 15-20 years ago, and viewership for many live sports events has increased over the past 10 years. This discussion about the Winter Olympics vs. the World Cup speaks to an important demographic shift in the U.S.: the huge increase in the Latino population, which is only going to continue over the next 20 years. The Winter Olympics have almost no appeal to the Latino community--there are almost no Latino athletes, and none of the winter sports have high participation rates amongst Latinos. Unless NBC and the USOC can find a way to improve the marking of winter sports to Latinos, I expect that the TV ratings for the Winter Olympics will continue to decline as the percentage of Latinos in the U.S. population continues to grow. Put the World Cup up against the Winter Olympics in 2022, and I guarantee you that about 25% of the U.S. population will not be watching any of the Winter Olympics.

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I don't think the Vancouver U.S. TV ratings are that impressive when you consider that the ratings for the Summer Games have been increasing compared to 15-20 years ago, and viewership for many live sports events has increased over the past 10 years. This discussion about the Winter Olympics vs. the World Cup speaks to an important demographic shift in the U.S.: the huge increase in the Latino population, which is only going to continue over the next 20 years. The Winter Olympics have almost no appeal to the Latino community--there are almost no Latino athletes, and none of the winter sports have high participation rates amongst Latinos. Unless NBC and the USOC can find a way to improve the marking of winter sports to Latinos, I expect that the TV ratings for the Winter Olympics will continue to decline as the percentage of Latinos in the U.S. population continues to grow. Put the World Cup up against the Winter Olympics in 2022, and I guarantee you that about 25% of the U.S. population will not be watching any of the Winter Olympics.

I disagree. It isn't a "one or the other" situation. They are NOT rival markets as you like to see it. Both can be complementary rather than competitive. Why should they be competitive? I mean I am Latino...why should I watch only one over the other? Is there TV equipment which say "You can only watch one over the other"? :blink: Spanish skating star Javier Fernandez is a name to reckon with in Men's Figure Skating. Why shouldn't he have a Latino following and thus be a watched-for athlete come WOG time in the Latino WOG broadcasts?? Explain that to me.

Interest in both will grow exponentially as with ALL sports...in any part of the world. Probably the trick is to watch the "cross-over" appeal. But again, you're comparing apples to naranjas.

BTW, the 2010 census only places the Hispanic population of the US at 16.9% of the population -- NOT 25%. http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

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Mr. Quaker, I barely disagree with you. My main arguing point was when Mr. Baron said WC only have 3 dates (LOL) while he made it sound - not sure it was his intention - that the WOG was such a global event. A fricking 1st round game between England and USA on a Saturday noon drew similar numbers (counting unavision) to what NBC got on Prime Time for the WOGs held in America's Hat. A WOG simply can't be compared to the WC worldwide and sooner rather than later - considering the super positive signs we're getting - Football - or sawker as you Yankees say - will outdraw the WOGs in the glorious nation of United States of America too.

First off, no.. the numbers were not similar. USA-England drew 10.8 million viewers on ABC plus an additional 4 million on Univision. Audiences for the Winter Olympics are typically in the mid 20 million range and that's a sustained audience every night for 17 straight nights. So yes, there are super positive signs for the growth of soccer football in this country, but they have a long long way to go before the World Cup is going to outdraw the Winter Olympics here. It's not happening anytime soon. It would take all the right circumstances (probably the United States advancing deep into a World Cup hosted on home soil) for the World Cup to eclipse the Winter Olympics in terms of television ratings.

Actually WC happens in June/July since 1930. It wasn't because they want to have the stage all to themselves. It needed to be during the vacation period so teams could let the players play for their NTs and also people to travel.

Fair enough. But to my point.. let's see what happens when FIFA can't hold the World Cup in June/July in that preferred period and they have to plan around everyone else's interests.

Could be. But they'd just swallow it. Coca sponsors FIFA since back in the days Cats where still had seven lifes, what would Coke do?. Anyways, I just don't see how they'd significantly hurt. Only one WC. Would they get in the way of a Arab World Cup? That wouldn't sound well. Can you imagine the shitstorm?

So yeh, they'd swallow ny minor thing.

Anyways, my point is that unless something MAJOR gets on the way they'll have the World Cup debut on the same fucking hour of the WOG, if necessary.

I know it may not seem this way to you down in Brazil, but the Winter Olympics is something major. You're giving FIFA too much credit.. do you really think they have the balls to go up against the Olympics after the way they've massively screwed up with this World Cup? It's a lose-lose for both sides. That FIFA messed up, they're not going to take the Olympics down with them.

As for sponsors.. like hell they're just going to suck it up and take it. In case you forgot, Coca-Cola got an Olympics awarded to Atlanta once. Think how laughable that idea would be now. They have an interest in this just like all the confederations and the leagues. We can argue how badly they'd be hurt by the Olympics clashing with the World Cup, even if it's only once, but you know what they'd do?.. pay FIFA less money.

ps: about picking a fight with IOC, FIFA would love to see football dropped from the Olympics. Not even the 3 players over 23 are guaranteed by FIFA anymore.

If they don't want to be there, what's stopping them from dropping themselves? They already have the UEFA Euro in Summer Olympic years, so it's not like FIFA is lacking for a major tournament then. And it's certainly not because..

Football is the sport that brings the most ticket-revenue in almost every SOG edition. Little cost, too. Because most countries don't need to build any stadium to host Olympic Games.

This is utterly laughable. What exactly are you basing this on.. the capacity of the stadiums and number of available tickets? Check the attendance for some of the games in the 2012 tournament (held in one of the most football crazy countries on the planet). Plus the prices for most of the tickets save for the highest categories for the semis and the final topped out at £60. That much money wouldn't even get you into the 3rd best category of seating (out of 5) for the preliminary of athletics.

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I don't think the Vancouver U.S. TV ratings are that impressive when you consider that the ratings for the Summer Games have been increasing compared to 15-20 years ago, and viewership for many live sports events has increased over the past 10 years. This discussion about the Winter Olympics vs. the World Cup speaks to an important demographic shift in the U.S.: the huge increase in the Latino population, which is only going to continue over the next 20 years. The Winter Olympics have almost no appeal to the Latino community--there are almost no Latino athletes, and none of the winter sports have high participation rates amongst Latinos. Unless NBC and the USOC can find a way to improve the marking of winter sports to Latinos, I expect that the TV ratings for the Winter Olympics will continue to decline as the percentage of Latinos in the U.S. population continues to grow. Put the World Cup up against the Winter Olympics in 2022, and I guarantee you that about 25% of the U.S. population will not be watching any of the Winter Olympics.

Obviously we've strayed off topic here, but since we're in a TV discussion..

That 25% isn't watching much of the Winter Olympics anyway. But they're still drawing audiences that are bigger than virtually everything else on television in the United States save for football and a couple of big events like the academy awards. By the same token, how much of the 20-something million people watching the Olympics every night would then pay attention to the World Cup during the day? If the World Cup and the Winter Olympics were on at the same time, the World Cup would get crushed ratings-wise, and that's not changing anytime soon

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And current projections state that by 2022, the Latino population will be 20-25% of the U.S. population.

Well, then we cross that bridge when we get to it. Viewing, lifestyle habits would've changed too. 2nd generation Latinos would be fully integrated into mainstream society and their lifestyles would've also grown/matured without leaving behind their roots.

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Revealed: Qatar's World Cup 'slaves'

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars-world-cup-slaves

Revealed: Qatar's World Cup 'slaves'

Exclusive: Abuse and exploitation of migrant workers preparing emirate for 2022

World Cup construction 'will leave 4,000 migrant workers dead'

Analysis: Qatar 2022 puts Fifa's reputation on the line

Link to video: Qatar: the migrant workers forced to work for no pay in World Cup host countryDozens of Nepalese migrant labourers have died in Qatar in recent weeks and thousands more are enduring appalling labour abuses, a Guardian investigation has found, raising serious questions about Qatar's preparations to host the 2022 World Cup.

This summer, Nepalese workers died at a rate of almost one a day in Qatar, many of them young men who had sudden heart attacks. The investigation found evidence to suggest that thousands of Nepalese, who make up the single largest group of labourers in Qatar, face exploitation and abuses that amount to modern-day slavery, as defined by the International Labour Organisation, during a building binge paving the way for 2022.

According to documents obtained from the Nepalese embassy in Doha, at least 44 workers died between 4 June and 8 August. More than half died of heart attacks, heart failure or workplace accidents.

The investigation also reveals:

Evidence of forced labour on a huge World Cup infrastructure project.

• Some Nepalese men have alleged that they have not been paid for months and have had their salaries retained to stop them running away.

• Some workers on other sites say employers routinely confiscate passports and refuse to issue ID cards, in effect reducing them to the status of illegal aliens.

• Some labourers say they have been denied access to free drinking water in the desert heat.

• About 30 Nepalese sought refuge at their embassy in Doha to escape the brutal conditions of their employment.

The allegations suggest a chain of exploitation leading from poor Nepalese villages to Qatari leaders. The overall picture is of one of the richest nations exploiting one of the poorest to get ready for the world's most popular sporting tournament.

"We'd like to leave, but the company won't let us," said one Nepalese migrant employed at Lusail City development, a $45bn (£28bn) city being built from scratch which will include the 90,000-seater stadium that will host the World Cup final. "I'm angry about how this company is treating us, but we're helpless. I regret coming here, but what to do? We were compelled to come just to make a living, but we've had no luck."

The body tasked with organising the World Cup, the Qatar 2022 Supreme Committee, told the Guardian that work had yet to begin on projects directly related to the World Cup. However, it said it was "deeply concerned with the allegations that have been made against certain contractors/sub-contractors working on Lusail City's construction site and considers this issue to be of the utmost seriousness". It added: "We have been informed that the relevant government authorities are conducting an investigation into the allegations."

The Guardian's investigation also found men throughout the wider Qatari construction industry sleeping 12 to a room in places and getting sick through repulsive conditions in filthy hostels. Some say they have been forced to work without pay and left begging for food.

"We were working on an empty stomach for 24 hours; 12 hours' work and then no food all night," said Ram Kumar Mahara, 27. "When I complained, my manager assaulted me, kicked me out of the labour camp I lived in and refused to pay me anything. I had to beg for food from other workers."

Almost all migrant workers have huge debts from Nepal, accrued in order to pay recruitment agents for their jobs. The obligation to repay these debts, combined with the non-payment of wages, confiscation of documents and inability of workers to leave their place of work, constitute forced labour, a form of modern-day slavery estimated to affect up to 21 million people across the globe. So entrenched is this exploitation that the Nepalese ambassador to Qatar, Maya Kumari Sharma, recently described the emirate as an "open jail".

Nepal-embassy-record-008.jpgRecord of deaths in July 2013, from all causes, held by the Nepalese embassy in Doha. Photograph: /guardian.co.uk

"The evidence uncovered by the Guardian is clear proof of the use of systematic forced labour in Qatar," said Aidan McQuade, director of Anti-Slavery International, which was founded in 1839. "In fact, these working conditions and the astonishing number of deaths of vulnerable workers go beyond forced labour to the slavery of old where human beings were treated as objects. There is no longer a risk that the World Cup might be built on forced labour. It is already happening."

Qatar has the highest ratio of migrant workers to domestic population in the world: more than 90% of the workforce are immigrants and the country is expected to recruit up to 1.5 million more labourers to build the stadiums, roads, ports and hotels needed for the tournament. Nepalese account for about 40% of migrant labourers in Qatar. More than 100,000 Nepalese left for the emirate last year.

The murky system of recruitment brokers in Asia and labour contractors in Qatar leaves them vulnerable to exploitation. The supreme committee has insisted that decent labour standards will be set for all World Cup contracts, but underneath it a complex web of project managers, construction firms and labour suppliers, employment contractors and recruitment agents operate.

According to some estimates, Qatar will spend $100bn on infrastructure projects to support the World Cup. As well as nine state-of-the-art stadiums, the country has committed to $20bn worth of new roads, $4bn for a causeway connecting Qatar to Bahrain, $24bn for a high-speed rail network, and 55,000 hotel rooms to accommodate visiting fans and has almost completed a new airport.

The World Cup is part of an even bigger programme of construction in Qatar designed to remake the tiny desert kingdom over the next two decades. Qatar has yet to start building stadiums for 2022, but has embarked on the big infrastructure projects likesuch as Lusail City that, according to the US project managers, Parsons, "will play a major role during the 2022 Fifa World Cup". The British engineering company Halcrow, part of the CH2M Hill group, is a lead consultant on the Lusail project responsible for "infrastructure design and construction supervision". CH2M Hill was recently appointed the official programme management consultant to the supreme committee. It says it has a "zero tolerance policy for the use of forced labour and other human trafficking practices".

Halcrow said: "Our supervision role of specific construction packages ensures adherence to site contract regulation for health, safety and environment. The terms of employment of a contractor's labour force is not under our direct purview."

Some Nepalese working at Lusail City tell desperate stories. They are saddled with huge debts they are paying back at interest rates of up to 36%, yet say they are forced to work without pay.

"The company has kept two months' salary from each of us to stop us running away," said one man who gave his name as SBD and who works at the Lusail City marina. SBD said he was employed by a subcontractor that supplies labourers for the project. Some workers say their subcontrator has confiscated their passports and refused to issue the ID cards they are entitled to under Qatari law. "Our manager always promises he'll issue [our cards] 'next week'," added a scaffolder who said he had worked in Qatar for two years without being given an ID card.

Without official documentation, migrant workers are in effect reduced to the status of illegal aliens, often unable to leave their place of work without fear of arrest and not entitled to any legal protection. Under the state-run kafala sponsorship system, workers are also unable to change jobs or leave the country without their sponsor company's permission.

A third worker, who was equally reluctant to give his name for fear of reprisal, added: "We'd like to leave, but the company won't let us. If we run away, we become illegal and that makes it hard to find another job. The police could catch us at any time and send us back home. We can't get a resident permit if we leave."

Other workers said they were forced to work long hours in temperatures of up to 50C (122F) without access to drinking water.

grieving-parents-Nepal-007.jpgDalli Kahtri and her husband, Lil Man, hold photos of their sons, both of whom died while working as migrants in Malaysia and Qatar. Their younger son (foreground photo) died in Qatar from a heart attack, aged 20. Photograph: Peter Pattison/guardian.co.uk

The Qatari labour ministry said it had strict rules governing working in the heat, the provision of labour and the prompt payment of salaries.

"The ministry enforces this law through periodic inspections to ensure that workers have in fact received their wages in time. If a company does not comply with the law, the ministry applies penalties and refers the case to the judicial authorities."

Lusail Real Estate Company said: "Lusail City will not tolerate breaches of labour or health and safety law. We continually instruct our contractors and their subcontractors of our expectations and their contractual obligations to both us and individual employees. The Guardian have highlighted potentially illegal activities employed by one subcontractor. We take these allegations very seriously and have referred the allegations to the appropriate authorities for investigation. Based on this investigation, we will take appropriate action against any individual or company who has found to have broken the law or contract with us."

The workers' plight makes a mockery of concerns for the 2022 footballers.

"Everyone is talking about the effect of Qatar's extreme heat on a few hundred footballers," said Umesh Upadhyaya, general secretary of the General Federation of Nepalese Trade Unions. "But they are ignoring the hardships, blood and sweat of thousands of migrant workers, who will be building the World Cup stadiums in shifts that can last eight times the length of a football match."

• Read the official response to this story

• The Guardian's investigation into modern-day slavery is supported by Humanity United. Click here for more information

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Has anyone here been to an Emirate? It is surreal and in many ways as a compariable situation to the American South before the Civil War. An underclass of non-native minorities that make up substaintial parts of the population being exploited for the wealth of the 'native' population. Most acutely felt in Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Qatar, less so in the more formalized states of Saudi Arabia and Oman.

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Revealed: Qatar's World Cup 'slaves'

"Everyone is talking about the effect of Qatar's extreme heat on a few hundred footballers," said Umesh Upadhyaya, general secretary of the General Federation of Nepalese Trade Unions. "But they are ignoring the hardships, blood and sweat of thousands of migrant workers, who will be building the World Cup stadiums in shifts that can last eight times the length of a football match."

Tragic and heart-breaking. :(

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Has anyone here been to an Emirate? It is surreal and in many ways as a compariable situation to the American South before the Civil War. An underclass of non-native minorities that make up substaintial parts of the population being exploited for the wealth of the 'native' population. Most acutely felt in Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Qatar, less so in the more formalized states of Saudi Arabia and Oman.

I'm one of those "Native Arabs"

because I have some issues with the political systems that rules the "Arabian Peninsula" that's why you find my location/nationality as vacant/unknown :rolleyes:

Should be enough, in addition to the dates, for the IOC to ignore a Doha 2024 Olympic bid from even their peripheral vision.

Doha as part of Asia will be stupid to bid for 2024 after Tokyo 2020
if they want they can bid for 2028 .. but as always they will not make the short list
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