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Yes, naturally. Because the majority of the world doesn't participate in the Pan American Games... Don't like Toronto's strange temaki roll either though.

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I wonder if, perhaps, this torch might index the greater dilemma with Torontonian bids for larger sporting events in that they always - rather unfortunately - take the less (or in this case), the least inspiring or imaginative route in presenting their offerings, and not really considering that the race to stage impressive international events is really an atrociously ferocious contest, that is heavily dependent on putting your best face forward. Toronto seems to interpret this to mean putting your "best plastic face forward". This is such a catastrophic let down from Canada's most glittering expression of urban power and dominance. To think of it is almost painful.

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I wonder if, perhaps, this torch might index the greater dilemma with Torontonian bids for larger sporting events in that they always - rather unfortunately - take the less (or in this case), the least inspiring or imaginative route in presenting their offerings, and not really considering that the race to stage impressive international events is really an atrociously ferocious contest, that is heavily dependent on putting your best face forward. Toronto seems to interpret this to mean putting your "best plastic face forward". This is such a catastrophic let down from Canada's most glittering expression of urban power and dominance. To think of it is almost painful.

What the fuuck are you talking about? The Pan Am Games are a B level event and don't require anyone's "best face forward". These Games are about benefiting small communities in the Greater Toronto Area with brand new state of the art facilities. The new infrastructure will have a positive impact on Olympians and local athletes.

Both of Toronto's Olympic bids were elaborate and the 2008 bid was considered the most technically sound of the candidates. How exactly is that not putting the best foot forward? You're a fucking clown.

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For fu©k's sake.. it's the design of a torch. I am fairly confident there is no one else out there scrutinizing it to the degree that we are or talking about the greater implications for what this means for the Pan Am Games, let alone the perception of the city of Toronto or the country of Canada. I get there are folks here who think these are the most important things when it comes to major sporting events, but no one else out there will give 2 craps about it come July.

I wonder if, perhaps, this torch might index the greater dilemma with Torontonian bids for larger sporting events in that they always - rather unfortunately - take the less (or in this case), the least inspiring or imaginative route in presenting their offerings, and not really considering that the race to stage impressive international events is really an atrociously ferocious contest, that is heavily dependent on putting your best face forward. Toronto seems to interpret this to mean putting your "best plastic face forward". This is such a catastrophic let down from Canada's most glittering expression of urban power and dominance. To think of it is almost painful.

Needless to say, that rant was primarily directed at you and while I agree wholeheartedly with ofan's last point, I have a serious question for you. And be honest, moreso honest with yourself than with me..

When the medals came out, you were in love. Although apparently "officially stunning and have achieved a superlative harmony in their design" and "most glittering expression of urban power and dominance" only rates an 8.5 out of 10 for you (not sure how that works.. there's something that would be even better than that?) Now that you've seen the torch, you are so down on Toronto. The design of the torch has completely shattered your image of Toronto and your expectations on this event. It is a complete 180 for you.

Ask yourself this.. what would thoughts on Toronto be if the torch came out first and then we saw the medals? What would you be saying now if you were disappointed by the torch last week but now have the medals as your more recent discussion point? I bet you'd be waxing poetic about Toronto rather than being so greatly bummed out.

Don't be the type of person that over-reacts to something on an Internet forum for effect. You have the medals and you have the torch. 1 is awesome and 1 is a letdown, so those should be cancelling each other out at best. Not "well damn, Toronto clearly doesn't know what they are doing and this is a dilemma for Toronto" Over the design of the friggin' torch.

It is getting increasingly difficult to take you seriously. If you are that into these design elements of a SPORTING event (you know, something where athletes compete with each other and don't really care what colors are used to design the banners inside the stadiums), more power to you, but stop blowing things out of proportion like this. It's getting old and it's getting very annoying.

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Surely the Pan Ams has a torch wing at their HQ.

They don't. A third party is managing everything torch related (Alem international).

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Jeez, that torch just makes me want to sell my OC tickets. :rolleyes:

Actually, I like it's colorful look, but all those pictograms are overkill.

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What the fuuck are you talking about? The Pan Am Games are a B level event and don't require anyone's "best face forward". These Games are about benefiting small communities in the Greater Toronto Area with brand new state of the art facilities. The new infrastructure will have a positive impact on Olympians and local athletes.

Both of Toronto's Olympic bids were elaborate and the 2008 bid was considered the most technically sound of the candidates. How exactly is that not putting the best foot forward? You're a fucking clown.

One thing is undoubtedly clearly. You are, most certainly, exquisitely, unsalvageably inferior and struggle rather difficultly to make very simple associations and to analyse submissions for their central point WITHOUT personalizing them. My initial submission, after all, was not a leech directed towards you. Why would you take it as such? While this event, as you correctly indexed is B rated, it is the first time Toronto is staging a sporting event of this magnitude GIVEN THE REPORTS MADE that it will be largest sporting even Canada has ever hosted. So first impressions do count. What is even more tragic about your deductive skills is that you have concluded, most unfortunately, that style must be expensive. Judging from the "faminized" look of some of the facilities, that appears to be the general belief. Toronto need not feel obligated to prove anything. But should the city want to host the Olympic Games, everything you do to be noticed - even when hosting a B rated event - must be representative of your place or your desire to be at the centre, or very near the centre, of the urban universe. That doesn't mean expensive. It means taste. You would have to be distantly dumb to think otherwise. After all, scores of others cities will be scrutinizing you and will ensure that they succeed where you fell down. Given the infrastructural offerings of Guadalajara, strictly within the context of sporting facilities, Toronto has been "bitch slapped" --- as you would say? ( I can't possibly believe I resorted to those words as an act of salvation for the benefit of your understanding. But I have done you a duty. Hopefully.)

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And it appears they have been bitch slapped again with this remarkably atrocious torch. Couldn't they have gone to a local primary school for submissions?

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This thread had been one of the last bastions of sanity at GB until Pompous Pilate dropped in. Maybe a new section needs to be created for those who want to discuss the non-competitive elements of the Games.

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And it appears they have been bitch slapped again with this remarkably atrocious torch. Couldn't they have gone to a local primary school for submissions?

It's a torch. It's one of the least recognized elements of an event like this. I find it mind-boggling that you're putting this much emphasis behind something as insignificant as the design of the torch and that you think it's so damaging to their brand. If Toronto is to one day bid for the Olympics and the IOC voters look back on Toronto's execution of the 2015 Pan Am Games as a reference point, no one is going to remember what the torch looked like or hold it against them if they think it was "remarkably atrocious." Frankly, I'll be surprised if anyone here, including yourself, looks back on it as some sort of defining moment for them or some sort of symbol whereby you think they got "bitch slapped" by another event. And while this may be the largest sporting event in Canada's history in terms of total athletes, this is a country that has hosted 3 Olympics Games. So it's a matter of opinion which is more significant.. this or Montreal 1976 in which countries from all over the planet, not just the Americas, participated in.

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It's a torch. It's one of the least recognized elements of an event like this. I find it mind-boggling that you're putting this much emphasis behind something as insignificant as the design of the torch and that you think it's so damaging to their brand. If Toronto is to one day bid for the Olympics and the IOC voters look back on Toronto's execution of the 2015 Pan Am Games as a reference point, no one is going to remember what the torch looked like or hold it against them if they think it was "remarkably atrocious." Frankly, I'll be surprised if anyone here, including yourself, looks back on it as some sort of defining moment for them or some sort of symbol whereby you think they got "bitch slapped" by another event. And while this may be the largest sporting event in Canada's history in terms of total athletes, this is a country that has hosted 3 Olympics Games. So it's a matter of opinion which is more significant.. this or Montreal 1976 in which countries from all over the planet, not just the Americas, participated in.

Very balanced submission. I assure you that I have considered it and I thank you for such constructive points. You are indeed correct when you say it is the least recognized elements of an event, but leading up to the event it is the most visible. And it's visibility will be longer than the actual event itself. In that regard, it is an extremely powerful promotional and public awareness tool. Consider if you will, the torch design for Toronto 2015 to be a lapse in "the eye for detail" where the promotional power of the that tool is concerned. And that really is the greater point. You mustn't leave your eye to detail by the wayside and this is a figurative representation of that but Quaker, I do see and appreciate what you have said.

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Very balanced submission. I assure you that I have considered it and I thank you for such constructive points. You are indeed correct when you say it is the least recognized elements of an event, but leading up to the event it is the most visible. And it's visibility will be longer than the actual event itself. In that regard, it is an extremely powerful promotional and public awareness tool. Consider if you will, the torch design for Toronto 2015 to be a lapse in "the eye for detail" where the promotional power of the that tool is concerned. And that really is the greater point. You mustn't leave your eye to detail by the wayside and this is a figurative representation of that but Quaker, I do see and appreciate what you have said.

I could not disagree with you more. When discussing the Olympics, the Olympic flame is very symbolic. Lit at ancient Olympia and carried by a torch that's visible throughout the relay. That's not going to be the case with the Pan Am Games. Yes, there's a torch relay (albeit one that doesn't spend a lot of time outside of Ontario), but it's not something that is going to garner a lot of attention outside of Canada. And if you're talking about leading up to the event, also keep in mind there's another major sporting event occurring in Canada in the weeks leading up to the Pan Am Games. And one that involves the entire world no less, not just the Americas.

You keep talking about the torch design as some sort of major lapse in judgment on the part of the Toronto folks. Maybe you're right, but do you seriously think that Toronto's promotional ability is hindered as a result? That somehow they'll be less able to sell this event to the public because this "figurative representation" somehow isn't as powerful as it could be? That's crazy. And I stand by my original assertion.. if the torch had come first and then the medals, you would have a much more positive outlook on Toronto and would be focusing on the medals as the more recent item. Instead, it's almost as if you've completely forgotten how orgasmic you were over the medals and can't get past this. Why is it that the torch will be emphasized over the medals? Why is it that your characterization of Toronto (which couldn't have been more positive a few days ago) has done a complete and total 180 to the point where suddenly their eye to detail has gone by the wayside? Step out of the moment just a little bit and realize you're over-reacting to this because it's the freshest thing in your memory. It's not something that's catching the eye of everyone else like it clearly is with you.

Only on this forum do people (okay, maybe elsewhere, but I'd like to see it) get so wrapped up in the symbols of these events rather than the events themselves. What people will see and remember is the athletes and the competitions and yes, to an extent, the ceremonies, although that's also a bigger deal here than elsewhere. The official report of the Games will likely talk about the venues and the infrastructure and how efficiently the operation was run, not what the logo or the medals looked like. Those are ancillary items that will quickly be forgotten by most and will be taken into consideration by very few. If you honestly think Toronto's Olympic future has been harmed in any way or that the torch design will have some sort of lasting effect on the perception of the city, you're out of your freakin' mind.

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I could not disagree with you more. When discussing the Olympics, the Olympic flame is very symbolic. Lit at ancient Olympia and carried by a torch that's visible throughout the relay. That's not going to be the case with the Pan Am Games. Yes, there's a torch relay (albeit one that doesn't spend a lot of time outside of Ontario), but it's not something that is going to garner a lot of attention outside of Canada. And if you're talking about leading up to the event, also keep in mind there's another major sporting event occurring in Canada in the weeks leading up to the Pan Am Games. And one that involves the entire world no less, not just the Americas.

You keep talking about the torch design as some sort of major lapse in judgment on the part of the Toronto folks. Maybe you're right, but do you seriously think that Toronto's promotional ability is hindered as a result? That somehow they'll be less able to sell this event to the public because this "figurative representation" somehow isn't as powerful as it could be? That's crazy. And I stand by my original assertion.. if the torch had come first and then the medals, you would have a much more positive outlook on Toronto and would be focusing on the medals as the more recent item. Instead, it's almost as if you've completely forgotten how orgasmic you were over the medals and can't get past this. Why is it that the torch will be emphasized over the medals? Why is it that your characterization of Toronto (which couldn't have been more positive a few days ago) has done a complete and total 180 to the point where suddenly their eye to detail has gone by the wayside? Step out of the moment just a little bit and realize you're over-reacting to this because it's the freshest thing in your memory. It's not something that's catching the eye of everyone else like it clearly is with you.

Only on this forum do people (okay, maybe elsewhere, but I'd like to see it) get so wrapped up in the symbols of these events rather than the events themselves. What people will see and remember is the athletes and the competitions and yes, to an extent, the ceremonies, although that's also a bigger deal here than elsewhere. The official report of the Games will likely talk about the venues and the infrastructure and how efficiently the operation was run, not what the logo or the medals looked like. Those are ancillary items that will quickly be forgotten by most and will be taken into consideration by very few. If you honestly think Toronto's Olympic future has been harmed in any way or that the torch design will have some sort of lasting effect on the perception of the city, you're out of your freakin' mind.

"But it's not something that is going to garner a lot of attention outside of Canada." Clearly, this appears to point to that most miserable assumption that "outside of Canada" can only mean in reference to "the U.S." I think (and this is entirely my view) that we are entering a phase in which the profile of the Pan Ams are changing. The fact that two of the most sophisticated cities in the Americas have hosted them (Rio and Toronto) is helping to shape that.

Toronto, is in a very strange position given that it clearly has the intention of shifting from the fringes to a more central point of the "in" crowd of global cities. More importantly, it is expected to. The tremendous development of the city, its consistent use as a reference point for urban planning and the general acknowledgement that it has morphed into an exciting node of culture and technological development reinforces this point.

You cannot negate the importance of symbols. Symbols serve as markers of brands and as strategically important references for memory as the philosophical theory of semiotics has shown. You should also cautiously...very carefully... take note that these symbols have an extremely powerful influence on sculpting attitudes and behaviour and that was most interestingly revealed by a comment made by BT HARNER "Jeez, that torch just makes me want to sell my OC tickets". Now while this might exist in the context of humour, we cannot say that it has NOT been replicated in the minds of hundred, or thousands, or hundreds of thousands of people who saw the torch for the first time. We also cannot say that such thoughts were not "serious". There is, therefore, a very real interconnectivity existing even between things that might appear completely unrelated. Secondly, had the torch been revealed first, then the medals, it would be seen as a significant improvement. The actual occurrence (medals first, then torch) is a significant demotion, given that the symbols of the games are being used to generate interest in the event. That interest is typically made manifest through ticket sales. Return to BT HARNER's quote and the relationship should start to emerge.

Such relationships should be considered and not totally dismissed because they are not as ludicrous when dismantled and thoroughly scrutinized. I do hope you see what I mean.

The art of promotion, is a painfully fragile business.

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The profile of the Pan Am games is changing, Well as far as the US is concerned that has been the case for a couple decades now as we can't find an English speaking network to broadcast the Games after CBS did a commendable job in the 70s and 80s and ABC in 1991. The marquee athletes now skip the Games because Pan Am gold doesn't come with cash or a new car attached to it like the other competitions sanctioned by their respective IF. This is a challenge that the new leadership of PASO faces since Don Mario just let the Games rot in certain major markets. The design of a torch or medals or mascots or logos has nothing to do with this process.

By the way, I was joking about selling my OC tickets. I thought the emoticon indicated so.

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"By the way, I was joking about selling my OC tickets. I thought the emoticon indicated so."

Should you be so kind BTharner, I emphatically urge you to read MORE C*A*R*E*F*U*L*L*Y.

Things (including events) can lose interest for a period of time but can also regain interest and following. Imagine if Toronto was able to host such an impeccable Pan Ams that it contributes positively to the profile of the games being raised significantly. It would certainly strengthen their reputation as the ideal setting for other, larger international sporting events. Would you be so kind as to provide the primary reasons Toronto is hosting this event? P*R*I*M*A*R*Y reasons?

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You're delusional. How can an event's profile be raised when people don't have a chance to watch it. Hype plays a big role in the success of things in the sporting world and in this case, no one cares to do so.

This will be my last reply to you. Welcome to my ignore list.

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You're delusional. How can an event's profile be raised when people don't have a chance to watch it. Hype plays a big role in the success of things in the sporting world and in this case, no one cares to do so.

This will be my last reply to you. Welcome to my ignore list.

ESPN has carried select events on their networks in the past, with a large portion of events online. I'm sure we might see an increase in this with the Games being so close in proximity to America.

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Alright, let's work backwards here..

You cannot negate the importance of symbols. Symbols serve as markers of brands and as strategically important references for memory as the philosophical theory of semiotics has shown. You should also cautiously...very carefully... take note that these symbols have an extremely powerful influence on sculpting attitudes and behaviour and that was most interestingly revealed by a comment made by BT HARNER "Jeez, that torch just makes me want to sell my OC tickets". Now while this might exist in the context of humour, we cannot say that it has NOT been replicated in the minds of hundred, or thousands, or hundreds of thousands of people who saw the torch for the first time. We also cannot say that such thoughts were not "serious". There is, therefore, a very real interconnectivity existing even between things that might appear completely unrelated. Secondly, had the torch been revealed first, then the medals, it would be seen as a significant improvement. The actual occurrence (medals first, then torch) is a significant demotion, given that the symbols of the games are being used to generate interest in the event. That interest is typically made manifest through ticket sales. Return to BT HARNER's quote and the relationship should start to emerge.

Such relationships should be considered and not totally dismissed because they are not as ludicrous when dismantled and thoroughly scrutinized. I do hope you see what I mean.


The art of promotion, is a painfully fragile business.

The thing is.. no one is scrutinizing the design of the torch and other symbols so much as you are. You seem to be of the impression that people will see it and they'll have the same feelings towards Toronto that you currently do (and again, I re-emphasize my claim that your negativity right now is based on the order in which these symbols were revealed.. no one else is going to make that connection the same way you did because at this point, no one knows what order they were revealed). I'm not disagreeing that symbols and logos and branding can influence attitudes. I can say with utmost confidence that it has NOT "been replicated in the minds of hundred, or thousands, or hundreds of thousands of people who saw the torch for the first time" You know why I know that? Because hundreds of thousands of people probably haven't seen the torch yet. And if they have, I can assure you almost none of them have given it the attention to detail that you have. You can't put yourself in the heads of other people where they have the same attention to detail that you do, nor can you assume that they feel the same way.

The fact that you not once, but twice, referred to BTHarner's joke about the Opening Ceremony (clearly we need to buy you a new sarcasm detector since I thought that was pretty obviously a joke) shows how far off you are on this. I can't imagine there are too many people, if any, out there that would choose to attend or not attend the event based on the design of the torch or other symbols. People simply aren't as invested as you are in these things. We're still 4 months out from the event. I'm betting many who plan on attending the events have already chosen to do so. And those who might still be making up their minds will be swayed far more by other factors more important than the design of the torch.

Toronto, is in a very strange position given that it clearly has the intention of shifting from the fringes to a more central point of the "in" crowd of global cities. More importantly, it is expected to. The tremendous development of the city, its consistent use as a reference point for urban planning and the general acknowledgement that it has morphed into an exciting node of culture and technological development reinforces this point.

While I probably would have expressed this differently, here you and I agree. Toronto is trying to position itself as Canada's premiere city and one of global significance. I am sure that these efforts are based on future Olympic hopes of bringing the Summer Games back to Canada. However, you must keep in mind this is not a global event. It is the PAN AMERICAN Games. It is not the Women's WORLD Cup, an event also taking place in Canada in extremely close proximity to the Pan Am Games (and one from which Toronto was excluded). No doubt this will be a beneficial event for Toronto and regardless of what the future implications are, if the event is executed well, it will be a great legacy for Toronto. On that front, I expect them to succeed.

"But it's not something that is going to garner a lot of attention outside of Canada." Clearly, this appears to point to that most miserable assumption that "outside of Canada" can only mean in reference to "the U.S." I think (and this is entirely my view) that we are entering a phase in which the profile of the Pan Ams are changing. The fact that two of the most sophisticated cities in the Americas have hosted them (Rio and Toronto) is helping to shape that.

Now I can tell you will fit right in here at GamesBids since you've joined the club of posters who like to take things out of context. That quote was specifically referencing the torch relay, not the entire event itself. Looks like someone else needs to craft his posts more C*A*R*E*F*U*L*L*Y.

The problem with the Pan Am Games, as BTH and others have alluded to.. it still doesn't attract all of the top level athletes from countries in the Americas. The United States team that's sent there is often made up of athletes who wouldn't make the Olympic team or are just on the fringes. You won't see a Michael Phelps or a Ryan Lochte competing at the Pan Ams. The men's basketball team is made of B-list college players who haven't even sniffed the NBA. I know other countries (Brazil in particular, who has done extremely well in swimming and will no doubt use this as a warm-up for Rio) are more into the Pan Ams than others. And some of these events do serve as Olympic qualifiers, so there will be attention focused there.

Again though, the problem is that this event is still given very little prominence in the United States and unless a higher quality level of athletes are present, that will continue to be the case. And specific to this year's Pan Ams, compound that with the fact that another event is taking place in Canada in the month prior (which was the impetus behind the torch relay comment) that will completely overshadow the Pan Ams which, unfortunately for Toronto, are going to largely be an after-thought in this country.

I do agree that it boasts the profile of the event that Rio and Toronto will have hosted them. But it's worth noting that the other city that bid for the 2007 event was San Antonio. That's how little prominence the Pan Ams have here that only smaller cities would be interested. And until that changes, the Pan American Games may be important to much of the Americas, but they mean very little here in the United States. I don't see that changing much with this year's event.

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